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Thread: The current state of Magic

  1. #701
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    The debate about if Legacy is better than Modern misses the point, I am sure we would all rather play Legacy than Modern. Modern though is the catchment and landing that Legacy once was. Gone are the days where you could buy a few hundred dollars of cards and port your Extended deck to Legacy. The role Legacy once played its now taken up by Modern.

    Think about it this way. Your riding public transport for a year, you get sick of it and decide to buy a car. Now sure, that XR8 is better than the Honda Jazz your looking at but there is a 4 to one price difference and they are both going to do roughly the same job.

    Think of that from a Standard players point of view, the choice basicly looks the same. Add to that difference priorities for newer players. Different wants. People dislike it when I Stax them out in Legacy but they accept it. It's a part of life. People actively hate me and make a point of letting me know that when I play Lantern in Modern. The player base has different levels of what they will accept. Now throw in a newer Standard player looking at that... Modern often looks more appealing.
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  2. #702
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Yup. When starting out on Magic I would've gone WTF as well when facing ANT/TES. Nowadays I just think "Yup, serves me right for not playing blue". Your perception of what is fair (or, rather, acceptable) in Magic changes over the years.

    Newbies sometimes get upset when their creature (or whatever) eats a removal/counter spell, we purposely play creatures in a specific order to bait out those spells (and are bummed out when our opponent doesn't fall for it) b/c we see it as an integral part of the game.

    I also once overheard one newbie say to another 1/1's were useless and they should never play them. Two tables over I was piloting Elves!, smashing a Maverick player .

    On another occasion I overheard a EDH player ask his opponents who wanted to be milled for 3 cards that particular turn with the seriousness of a Belcher player trying to count to 7 while I was on the next table piloting Manaless Dredge vs. UR Delver. If you're going to mill someone it should be yourself, dammit . And not 3 measly cards, but your entire friggin' deck in a single go!
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  3. #703

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    People actively hate me and make a point of letting me know that when I play Lantern in Modern.
    This is the most compelling comment I've ever heard. Not even kidding. Looking at a Modern thread now...
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    Anecdotes aside, are you actually saying Vintage once had as large a player base as Legacy has now?
    No, never. I am merely refering to the development the format has taken when prices made it unaccessible, local scenes died and older players sold their cards.

    Mind that we talk a time period when I was able to buy Revised Mox Ruby & Mox Emerald for 160€, which pretty much equals a blue dual these days. We might face a similar problem Vintage had when Duals hit the the 300$.

    P.S.: On format migration. Going from Vintage to Legacy is quite a smooth transition unlike Legacy to modern or modern to Legacy. The gap of how Modern/Legacy play out is too big
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  5. #705

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I feel like the real tragedy in Modern though is that it used to be good - back in the day, you could play:

    Twin
    Pod (Kiki or Melira)
    Storm
    Tron (U or GR)
    Affinity
    Loam
    Scapeshift
    Junk/Jund
    WUR Control/Tempo (with colonnades or geists)
    Infect


    Plus some weird shit like:

    Eggs (!)
    Gifts
    Ad Nauseam
    Martyr
    Tezz
    Mill
    Restore Balance

    The decks felt uniquely "Modern," and had diverse and interesting strategies - for instance, Pod, Twin, Scapeshift, and UR Storm were all powerful, real, flexible, unique decks in Modern, that had cards and lines that you couldn't get in standard, but wouldn't have quite cut it for Legacy. It felt like they had their own particular texture and interplay that gave Modern an identity.

    Then, Wizards banned:

    Seething Song
    Bloodbraid Elf
    Birthing Pod
    Splinter Twin
    Second Sunrise
    etc

    So many of those uniquely modern decks went away. Some still exist in one or another form, but I can't help but feel like I'm playing "with the kids gloves on" every time I sleeve up for a Modern event - a lot of the decks are either super linear but janky (most of combo) or boring goodstuff, and even the unique things (shadow, Lantern) are kinda meh.

    I guess I just feel like they banned the soul out of the format.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd pick Modern over no Magic or playing Standard, but I'd almost never pick it over Legacy, and rarely over draft.

  6. #706

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Twin - Probably would be fine with them unbanning this
    Pod (Kiki or Melira) - You can still play Chord decks with Kiki/Vizier
    Storm - Still a Top deck
    Tron (U or GR) - Green is still a top deck and U is about as good as it ever was (i.e. not very), now there is even a mono-brown version
    Affinity - Still exists in basically the exact same form
    Loam - Was never a deck
    Scapeshift - Still good
    Junk/Jund - Slightly worse from twin ban and all the random bullshit of modern making reactive midrange decks worse but basically still the same
    WUR Control/Tempo (with colonnades or geists) - Still good
    Infect - Was probably too good before probe ban
    Eggs (!) - Agreed this is a cool deck imo, not sure I agree with the reasons for banning
    Gifts - About as good as it ever was (i.e. not very)
    Ad Nauseam - Still a deck
    Martyr - Still a (bad) deck
    Tezz - Actually has got better as the format progressed due to sword unban and whir printing
    Mill - Still as good as it ever was (ie. fringe pet deck status)
    Restore Balance - Got better over time due to inclusion of e.g. Nahiri and other different 3+ drops
    a lot of the decks are either super linear but janky (most of combo) or boring goodstuff, and even the unique things (shadow, Lantern) are kinda meh.
    You're literally impossible to please
    - Linear combo decks = Jank
    - Midrange/Interactive/Goodstuff decks = Boring
    - None of the above = Meh

    Your entire argument boils down to 'modern = twin and pod', Pod-style decks still are playable in the form of the various Chord/Company shells and Twin made the format far less fun for a lot of people. I do get that some liked the 'cat and mouse', interactive, tempo-ish gameplay of twin and being sad that it's gone is fine but 90% of what you wrote is like a red herring

  7. #707

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I had a lot of fun in Modern, playing various Junk decks and getting to do cool stuff like Evolutionary Leap with Lingering Souls, KotR as an attrition engine with Arena etc.

    I ended up leaving Modern due to coin flip matches like Affinity and Tron, which were completely unwinnable for my archetype unless you drew into your sideboard pieces, and then the nuts resiliency of the Combo Mid range Splinter Twin and Pod. The last match I actually played was against a friend on Pod, where I opened T1 discard, T2 Removal, T3 creature, and was holding one or two pieces of removal and he still killed me on turn 4.

    You can still do fun stuff and I imagine be alright with a Tier 2 deck, but the bad match ups in Modern were just way too lopsided to bother with anymore.
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  8. #708

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    You're literally impossible to please
    - Linear combo decks = Jank
    - Midrange/Interactive/Goodstuff decks = Boring
    - None of the above = Meh
    I can see how it could be read that way without context from my other posts, but what I really mean is that, compared to similar archetypes in other formats, the modern versions feel watered down. I actually like Legacy a lot, because it feels meaningfully different from that - for instance, in Legacy, combo decks aren't as janky as they are in modern (compare ANT in Legacy to Ad Nauseam in Modern). Modern feels like "leftovers" to me - now that we've banned all the good stuff, what can we still do?

    I do think it's something they could change if they wanted to, though - Modern is absolutely a few good printings and a few unbannings away from being both really cool/fun and accessible to a large playerbase, due to it not having the looming shadow of the reserved list. I think if they printed:

    - A decent counterspell (maybe not literal counterspell, but sure)
    - A way to hate on nonbasic lands that is somewhere between ghost quarter/tec edge and wasteland in terms of power level
    - A "not actually Force of Will but kinda like Force of Will" way to interact with degenerate combo

    and then unbanned some stuff, Modern could actually be pretty sweet. I think the thing that hamstrings them is the same thing that has made recent standards difficult to balance: they're unwilling to let players touch other player's stuff (removal, counterspells, reasonable interaction in general) so if something is good, banning is usually the most straightforward way of approaching it, and until they do, people just play linear strategies and blowout sideboard cards to beat other linear strategies.

    I didn't mean to sound so down on Modern, I more wanted to come off like a parent, you know - "Modern, I'm not mad, I'm just...disappointed. You could do so much more!"

    Edit: I also didn't address your assessments of the decks, most of which I agree with, but for me, one thing that's emblematic is the UR storm: yes, it's technically still a top deck, but now you have to play like eight electromancers and gifts and stuff, and it just feels like, look, what's so wrong with wanting to play just like, rituals, ascensions, and grapeshot? I get that Wizards hates everything I love about Magic, but it just felt like getting kicked while you were down every time they banned another ritual, and I hate losing game one of a match with my storm deck because my opponent had like, fatal push or lightning bolt. I get that this is also somewhat contradictory to my previous statements about interaction, but I am large and contain multitudes, so this edit is more of a personal beef than a rational critique of the format, in contrast to the previous.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Modern has its issues, sure, but that's not the point. A good Modern deck costs a grand. That's really what matters. That is what a 15 year old can make with a summer job. So what do you think is going to grow?

    Legacy has lost its shine. Not to us no, but to those who would have once joined our ranks. I have seen more people sell out of Legacy in the past 12 month then ever before. Hell even I have to a point. I basicly own Lands, Stax, Goblins and Elves now. Nothing else. Even that I will likely cut down on.

    Who, as they get older, have kids, need house repayments, a new car or a set of school uniforms for the kids are really going to pick cardboard over life? We a tenacious bunch sure, but nothing lasts forever. And as we slowly fade who's really coming up to replace us? Fewer and fewer people will since Modern is a cheaper and good enough alternative for ones amusement.

    Oh and something else to think about, as we sell who buys? Really? EDH players want duals too. What happens the day more EDH players are using our cards than we are?
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I ended up leaving Modern due to coin flip matches like Affinity and Tron, which were completely unwinnable for my archetype unless you drew into your sideboard pieces,
    Don't you play Enchantress in Legacy though? How do you feel about the Storm matchup?

  11. #711

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Biggest problem with Modern right now is they don't have Astral Slide, and the counterspells and nonbasic hate aren't quite good enough. Fix those three things and it's basically a perfect format.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Modern has its issues, sure, but that's not the point. A good Modern deck costs a grand. That's really what matters. That is what a 15 year old can make with a summer job. So what do you think is going to grow?

    Legacy has lost its shine. Not to us no, but to those who would have once joined our ranks. I have seen more people sell out of Legacy in the past 12 month then ever before. Hell even I have to a point. I basicly own Lands, Stax, Goblins and Elves now. Nothing else. Even that I will likely cut down on.

    Who, as they get older, have kids, need house repayments, a new car or a set of school uniforms for the kids are really going to pick cardboard over life? We a tenacious bunch sure, but nothing lasts forever. And as we slowly fade who's really coming up to replace us? Fewer and fewer people will since Modern is a cheaper and good enough alternative for ones amusement.

    Oh and something else to think about, as we sell who buys? Really? EDH players want duals too. What happens the day more EDH players are using our cards than we are?
    When I moved here and showed up for the first Legacy night, the other players were like "wow, a 6th person to play sanctioned Legacy!" Now Legacy regularly fires twice a week here with 15-20 players on average. That's in less than two years. I play against kids younger than the cards all the time. Major-tournament Legacy support is creeping up as well; even SCG is running more Sunday tournaments after their departure from the open series touched off the Legacy-is-dying mania.

    I don't see a need to be so melodramatic I guess. Sometimes people get so down on MTG I feel like playing makes me stupid. On the other hand I actually do have kids and a job and a house and it kind of irritates me when people say that you can't have that and also play Magic. I'm posting here on work downtime and I play on weekday evenings with the very occasional weekend tournament that I plan for. Am I supposed to be grouting my tub at 8pm on Tuesday? Am I supposed to be setting a fantasy football lineup instead with my leisure time?

    Obviously there are structural issues, and gameplay issues, but that's true across the game right now. I'm happy to enjoy what I can and pop up here to discuss the format's issues with intelligent people. But overall, I still have a lot of fun playing Legacy, and my local scene is vibrant/growing, so I don't see a reason to panic/pack it in just yet.

  13. #713

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    Don't you play Enchantress in Legacy though? How do you feel about the Storm matchup?
    I think that's the other Claymore1, haha. I do play Nic Fit, Rock, Jund, and yeah Storm is awful, but with a little bit of luck and some lock pieces you can get there sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    P.S.: On format migration. Going from Vintage to Legacy is quite a smooth transition unlike Legacy to modern or modern to Legacy. The gap of how Modern/Legacy play out is too big
    This is huge. I keep finding myself looking at Modern and debating going back to it (while still staying with Legacy), but then I notice two things: the cards are underpowered (more on that in a minute), and the banlist has so thoroughly divorced the two formats that I, having been practically unemployed for some time, can't afford staples for Modern.

    I think there are three major problems for the game going forward. The first is that Legacy and Vintage prices are too high and the company's not interested in changing that. I picked up my two "heavily played" Undergrounds for $164 a pop in late 2015/early 2016—and that price was a steal. I would have absolutely no problem with their prices returning to that level. I had to move cards to get my duals, and I have nothing close to a full set. I'm already (for practical purposes) priced out of Legacy, but over the years, I'd lucked into a collection of arbitrarily valuable cards—a Candelabra that I got out of a repack around 2001, three Chalices (incl. a foily one), about six Aether Vials, and a playset of Cryptic Commands—that I could unload for the cards I'd always wanted. Most people don't have that option, and I count myself supremely lucky.

    The second problem is that there's a widening gap between Standard-Modern and the eternal formats. Not only is it really hard for people to dig into Legacy for financial reasons, the format doesn't play anything like Modern or Standard. It's really a very different game, and without anything to bridge the gap (except maybe hatebears, Eldrazi, Dredge, and Storm), I think people who grew up on Standard or Modern won't feel the same attraction to Legacy that I did when I first saw a degenerate combo list and thought, "I want to DO that!" People are getting accustomed to the "vanilla and ETB guys and 3-cmc Green card advantage" model, and that's why people write off the older formats as degenerate. (Curiously, a lot of those people play Commander, which is much more degenerate than Legacy and has both the enforced slow clock of Modern and a lower pricetag than Legacy.)

    The third problem is with the game's design trends and policing. There have been seven cards banned in Standard in the last year. None of those cards comes anywhere close to constituting the disasterpiece that was Mirrodin Affinity. This indicates less that the cards aren't as powerful (though that's pretty painfully apparent) than that Wizards hasn't been tightening up the design for new sets. Since 2016, we've seen Eldrazi crash through the game like a freight train full of tentacles, then immediately we've seen three blocks' worth of nothing—but the Standard metagame has been so narrow (because of the cards' low power) that bans have reached the high-water mark. That's bad design in action. The reprinting of commons in consecutive sets in the same block is embarrassingly lazy. If anything's going to be the death-blow, I'll go out on a limb and say that it's that. I find it hard to believe that the designers are really working that hard to make balanced sets when ETB guys are too powerful for Standard and they're filling blank spaces with cards people can already pull out of packs. And if they are really giving it their all, they need to acknowledge that their design paradigm is way too narrow because there's such a large gap between the best 2–3 cards in Standard and all the others.

    I was going to say something about 5Lotus.dec in Vintage, but I've probably said it all before.
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  15. #715
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Moderns issues started day 1 with their YOLO banlist followed by 2 more mass-bannings shortly after to neuter all viable control decks and then they starting to chop the heads off of every combo/engine which is able to win before Tarmogoyf can.

    Joke is that viable control decks would keep all the combos/engines in check if WOTC wouldn't have decided to cripple them since day 1 and double downed by moving sweepers to 5 mana
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    People are moving into Modern, people are not moving out of it. Why would they? The scene is vibrant, they have no loyalty to Legacy and the idea that your lands don't hurt you is not worth the money it costs to play in our sand pit.
    At least in Seattle, we've had a stream of Modern players join Legacy. This might be because there's a weekly Modern tournament held on the same night as a Legacy tournament, so people can walk around the room and see both formats in action. Also, a good number of people here play both formats and simply switch between the two based on their weekly preference. I met someone last night who plays mostly limited, and even he said he plays both Legacy and Modern. He simply plays decks he can port between the two formats.

    I think the money argument is overstated. Beyond borrowing and sharing cards between formats, there are budget versions of almost everything. I saw someone playing Glacial Fortress a few nights ago instead of a fourth Tundra. He could have sat out Legacy until his deck was considered ideal, but why do that? The difference between three Tundras and four Tundras is much smaller than people make it out to be, and his list was arguably superior because it's better against Choke, which has been seen a lot here.

    Most people can't jump into a new format immediately, but once the desire is there, they'll get there eventually. Not everyone needs Underground Seas and Tabernacles to play, and not everyone wants them.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Moderns issues started day 1 with their YOLO banlist followed by 2 more mass-bannings shortly after to neuter all viable control decks and then they starting to chop the heads off of every combo/engine which is able to win before Tarmogoyf can.

    Joke is that viable control decks would keep all the combos/engines in check if WOTC wouldn't have decided to cripple them since day 1 and double downed by moving sweepers to 5 mana
    I love how this comment perfectly encapsulates someone who is trying to make up arguments against something they know nothing about. Jeskai control is huge in modern right now, with the finals of the last SCG open being a mirror match, while Tarmogoyf is rarely found in any lists in the top 8, which has brought goyf's price down to an all time low in 6 years.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I love how this comment perfectly encapsulates someone who is trying to make up arguments against something they know nothing about.
    Not that I'm 100% sold on Lemnear's assessment of modern, but I think you might've misinterpreted the points he was trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Moderns issues started day 1 with their YOLO banlist followed by 2 more mass-bannings shortly after to neuter all viable control decks and then they starting to chop the heads off of every combo/engine which is able to win before Tarmogoyf can.

    Joke is that viable control decks would keep all the combos/engines in check if WOTC wouldn't have decided to cripple them since day 1 and double downed by moving sweepers to 5 mana
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Jeskai control is huge in modern right now, with the finals of the last SCG open being a mirror match, while Tarmogoyf is rarely found in any lists in the top 8, which has brought goyf's price down to an all time low in 6 years.
    UW based control decks only make up 4-6% of the modern meta in the last 2-8 weeks. Definitely a flavor of the month deck based on the most recent SCG result that you cited, but I wouldn't call this "huge in modern" by any definition of the phrase.

    The beater of choice is largely moot, his second point about Tarmogoyf is a reference to WotC's de facto "Turn 4 kill" rule. Replace "Tarmogoyf" with Death's Shadow or any of the beaters in Humans/Affinity/fair deck, I don't think he's making an argument about the meta presence of our favorite green, vanilla, 2 drop beater.

    Edited for clarity

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Good point, if you change every point in his argument with something else it becomes better.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesture View Post
    UW based control decks only make up 4-6% of the modern meta in the last 2-8 weeks. Definitely a flavor of the month deck based on the most recent SCG result that you cited, but I wouldn't call this "huge in modern" by any definition of the phrase.

    The beater of choice is largely moot, his second point about Tarmogoyf is a reference to WotC's de facto "Turn 4 kill" rule. Replace "Tarmogoyf" with Death's Shadow or any of the beaters in Humans/Affinity/fair deck, I don't think he's making an argument about the meta presence of our favorite green, vanilla, 2 drop beater.

    Edited for clarity
    Modern is 7 years old and it's quite hard to pack such a time full of printings/bannings into a few sentences to frame the formats development. It had an issue with lacking control elements thanks to the bannings which resulted in combo being rampant and more bannings. It took years for the format to slightly grew out of its limitations even if it did not in terms of Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize & Co. backing the kill condition of choice within the 4 turn rule of which Tarmogoyf was an anecdote. It's not too different to Legacy actually with most people running the same cantrip & fetch Galore with their kill condition of choice and little essential difference if its now a 3/2 flier or a 7/7 lifelinker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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