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Thread: The current state of Magic

  1. #861
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    It's also interesting to note that SCG no longer gets to handle gps, and that it has been monopolized by CFB.
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    to me it feels the days of competitve magic are numbered. at least in my region the casual edh crowd has taken over all magic places. limited on fnm is more or less the only format firing irregular. legacy is dead for years now, modern and standard is only played by the 2 grinders left.
    I wouldn't be suprised if that was part of the decision to make Brawl (aka Standard Commander, we get more infos on it today, probably in tandem with the MtG Arena NDA drop as those might be related). WotC might have fucked with Standard too much for it to fully recover, if ever, and they need other sources of revenue that are sustainable.

  3. #863

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I wouldn't be suprised if that was part of the decision to make Brawl (aka Standard Commander, we get more infos on it today, probably in tandem with the MtG Arena NDA drop as those might be related). WotC might have fucked with Standard too much for it to fully recover, if ever, and they need other sources of revenue that are sustainable.
    Brawl was announced with 0 associated products, and no tournament support (it's officially a casual format).
    Without either of these two things it hardly seems like much of a money-spinner for wizards, especially seeing as you only need 1 copy of each card.
    I expect that with no tournament support people are going to forget about it pretty quickly, like Tiny Leaders

    "Standard has been fucked with too much to ever recover" just seems like a really dumb thing to say
    There are 2 more sets before late this year, then Kaladesh and Amonkhet block rotate out
    Any of these things can change standard a lot, and even since the Attune ban there haven't been any ubiquitous complaints about the format anyway

  4. #864
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    There may not be ubiquitous complaints, but the last few times I've made it to FNM to play Legacy there has been *zero* people there for Standard. Twenty for Legacy, none for Standard. This is the first year I've seen that since Legacy has been an FNM format. It might just be a colloquial tidbit, but if it begins to die at the local level and it only survives at the GP/Pro level, then it will eventually die completely. I actually think Barook's comment is quite valid. No there isn't a 'product' that has been made specifically for Brawl...because it already has a product with the current Standard legal sets available. In my opinion, this is the most blatant attempt to make Standard relevant in quite some time.

    Honestly, I think the overall player base may be shrinking (don't have data) but once the future of Standard is in jeopardy it's only a logical step to buckle down and play the older cards that will be around forever, rather than keep throwing your lot into the Money Pit of standard. Standard has been a fucking shit-show for the past year+, bannings coming more frequently and Modern becoming more popular. I used to think Legacy was the dying breed, but I think the pendulum is shifting subtly towards Standard. Players no longer dumping money into Standard might just find that the $200 they saved would be better invested in Modern/Legacy.
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  5. #865
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    There may not be ubiquitous complaints, but the last few times I've made it to FNM to play Legacy there has been *zero* people there for Standard. Twenty for Legacy, none for Standard. This is the first year I've seen that since Legacy has been an FNM format. It might just be a colloquial tidbit, but if it begins to die at the local level and it only survives at the GP/Pro level, then it will eventually die completely. I actually think Barook's comment is quite valid. No there isn't a 'product' that has been made specifically for Brawl...because it already has a product with the current Standard legal sets available. In my opinion, this is the most blatant attempt to make Standard relevant in quite some time.
    What is the biggest giveaway that they try to cash in on Commander being popular is having the same banlist in Brawl as in Standard. That one struck me as rather odd, given the nature of the format.

    Whether or not this format is going to succeed is up in the air. The rather limited card pool, especially after rotations, makes me rather sceptical.

  6. #866

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I think yall are over thinking this a bit, it seems to me that they are just trying to monetize the popularity of commander. My guess is someone pointed out that commander is popular....then someone pointed out it doesn't drive much revenue growth...then someone said OK let's do this but with only standard...then someone made a powerpoint and here we are.

  7. #867

    Re: The current state of Magic

    WotC has just honestly screwed up things too much for me to have any long term faith in their ability to recover. I mean, one of THE most requested cards for Modern for forever has been Astral Slide.. and they just did a cycling block without reprinting it. This is a personal pet peeve example, but they've done that a LOT of times to a lot of people so it kind of adds up.

    Also, we've seen most of Dominaria now, and it doesn't look like the kind of set that gets people jumping back into MTG at all. It's pretty clearly not another Innistrad or Ravnica. More importantly, for the first time in, well, ever, WotC is facing a large amount of competition that is, unlike them, very competent. Hearthstone, Gwent, Slay the Spire, probably Artifact... they're not just fighting against Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and a bunch of copycats that have to pay them royalties anymore.

    Combine this with their atrocious management of standard, and complete inability to do functional set design anymore - they had a three set format for like, two decades, then all of a sudden it wasn't "sustainable" so they did a two set format, and now they're down to one set for each location? Their standard rotation policy changes basically every year now, and their banlist is a giant fucking joke that's spelled "we got rid of creature kill, counterspells, and LD, but left creature power levels at where they were when we were pumping up dumb duders to counteract the risk of playing critters when there was creature kill, counterspells, and LD".

    I mean, if I want to smash value duders into each other with no counters and no creature kill and safe perfect mana, I'll go play Hearthstone, that's literally what it's for.

    Hasbro did good forcing a semi-competent CEO on WotC, but they honestly just need to clean fucking house, Rosewater included, and let some new people who don't have 20 years of bad habits ingrained take over.

  8. #868
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    What is the biggest giveaway that they try to cash in on Commander being popular is having the same banlist in Brawl as in Standard. That one struck me as rather odd, given the nature of the format.

    Whether or not this format is going to succeed is up in the air. The rather limited card pool, especially after rotations, makes me rather sceptical.
    It will drive pack sales up, simply because you only need singletons for this format. Everyone knows buying singles is the best way to get sets of cards, but if you crack 5 packs with a friend and pull Walk the Plank, Never/Return, and Vanquish the Weak you can use them alongside your Fatal Push's. It makes more cards relevant and easier to obtain. It's actually quite smart...until it becomes more popular than Standard, which I predict will happen quickly considering the more budget-friendly nature of this new format. EDH/Commander started as a casual format, and now it is a 1v1 competitive format. I see the same happening with Brawl, within 2 years.

    Everyone will be playing Brawl or non-Standard formats within the next 2 years. Fight me.
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  9. #869

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It will drive pack sales up, simply because you only need singletons for this format. Everyone knows buying singles is the best way to get sets of cards, but if you crack 5 packs with a friend and pull Walk the Plank, Never/Return, and Vanquish the Weak you can use them alongside your Fatal Push's. It makes more cards relevant and easier to obtain. It's actually quite smart...until it becomes more popular than Standard, which I predict will happen quickly considering the more budget-friendly nature of this new format. EDH/Commander started as a casual format, and now it is a 1v1 competitive format. I see the same happening with Brawl, within 2 years.

    Everyone will be playing Brawl or non-Standard formats within the next 2 years. Fight me.
    The fact it's backed by WotC means that Brawl actually has legs unlike some garbage like Tiny Leaders. People are complaining about Brawl, but it seems like a decent idea to at least try.

    The sad thing about all this is that Standard actually looks really fun right now with the exception of The Scarab God. If I had the time, I'd be playing it.

  10. #870

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I actually think Brawl would've been pretty fun for me back when I did weekly drafts - I don't think I would go out of my way to specifically build a Brawl deck the way I would an EDH deck, but if I just had a pile of draft stuff sitting around, I'd throw together some sort of unsleeved nonsense and battle.

    Recently, I haven't been making it out every Friday to draft, but if I take that approach again, it doesn't strike me as the worst idea.

  11. #871
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Hasbro did good forcing a semi-competent CEO on WotC, but they honestly just need to clean fucking house, Rosewater included, and let some new people who don't have 20 years of bad habits ingrained take over.
    The only competent thing I've seen from Chris Cocks so far is firing Worth Wolpert and that was like a decade overdue. Sadly, firing Rosewater is bad PR due to rapid fanboys, so chances for that are extremely low. And with the GDS 3, they're only looking for more of the same.

  12. #872
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    the whole fucking truth
    Preach, mate! So on-board with all said here
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  13. #873

    Re: The current state of Magic

    I think a lot of people like the concept of Brawl a lot, and it's a natural follow up to a bunch of Limited - you get to use the same garbage cards you drafted the past few weeks and build a fun singleton deck. However, it's a casual rotating format...that makes absolutely no sense. What casual player will accept that their fun deck isn't legal anymore?

    I wouldn't really expect it to drive a ton of revenue other than giving players additional reasoning to actually play Limited.

    I don't see it combining with Standard very much at all. The two concepts are pretty far apart.

    I think a new Commander format based on Origins-forward would make more sense for Wizards, but likely was shot down because, again, didn't drive people to buy the latest packs.
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Shit, I'm gonna take the unpopular road and go to bat for Rosewater.

    He's one of the last of his kind, a person who comes from a background that isn't Magic-related or some "geek culture"...thing. Rosewater had a real job in the real world that gave him a perspective that a lot of the folks they hire nowadays lack. WotC disproportionately pulls from the (pro) Magic scene in their hiring process and this results in a monoculture within the company; a bunch of people who grew up on on Magic and Magic-related media, who have no idea what it must be like to not be immersed in the game. This leads to inbred thinking, that's out of touch with average folks ($10 packs, crazy-rotation scheme switchups), and can't satisfy established players because of corporate/marketing priorities ("new players HATE interaction...our market research allows us to draw this specious conclusion!").

    Just compare Unstable to pretty much anything else released in the last five years of Magic. It's fun, light-hearted, imaginative, mechanically deep, complex, and all Rosewater's baby. Much better than the derivative, simplistic, and focus-grouped shit they've been shoveling into Standard packs for quite awhile now. Not really excited to bust packs of more NWO-compliant "draft-focused" sets full of boring, garbage cards and linear strategies signposted by multicolor uncommons. Y'know, like every set since Origins.

    Magic, and WotC, have a lot of problems, but I don't think MaRo's one of them.

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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Their standard rotation policy changes basically every year now, and their banlist is a giant fucking joke that's spelled "we got rid of creature kill, counterspells, and LD, but left creature power levels at where they were when we were pumping up dumb duders to counteract the risk of playing critters when there was creature kill, counterspells, and LD".
    I looked at the stats on this last banning. The most striking conclusion I reached was this: Assuming all cards currently banned in Standard remain banned for their entire lifetime in Standard, this will be the longest Standard has ever gone with a non-zero number of cards banned.

    And here's some history:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  16. #876

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    WotC has just honestly screwed up things too much for me to have any long term faith in their ability to recover. I mean, one of THE most requested cards for Modern for forever has been Astral Slide.. and they just did a cycling block without reprinting it. This is a personal pet peeve example, but they've done that a LOT of times to a lot of people so it kind of adds up.
    I can understand not reprinting Astral Slide itself. What puzzles me is why they didn't print anything like it. They could've easily put the effect at 4 mana if they wanted to be careful, which would still allow people to try it out, even if it's weaker.

    Also, we've seen most of Dominaria now, and it doesn't look like the kind of set that gets people jumping back into MTG at all. It's pretty clearly not another Innistrad or Ravnica. More importantly, for the first time in, well, ever, WotC is facing a large amount of competition that is, unlike them, very competent. Hearthstone, Gwent, Slay the Spire, probably Artifact... they're not just fighting against Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and a bunch of copycats that have to pay them royalties anymore.
    I don't know, I think Dominaria actually looks kind of cool. Wizards tribal could be fun.

    Honestly though, I think they need to take a look at Modern and notice how all the things they've kept out of Standard are there, but people like the format more than Standard. Part of that is of course it being nonrotating, but people are clearly not having issues playing a format where cards like Blood Moon and Stone Rain are legal, or where combos can consistently kill you on turn 4, or where your huge creature can get exiled for 1 mana, or where any number of things that supposedly aren't fun or too powerful for Standard are legal. Is there complaining about some of these things? Sure, but note how people will complain but keep playing Modern, whereas in Standard people would complain and stop playing.

    Maybe someone can say "well, Modern is for more experienced players who are okay with that sort of thing. Newer players to constructed would prefer a format without those." The thing is, at least at my store, I'm seeing players new to constructed start out in Modern. Granted, this might be because Standard fires less frequently so they turn to Modern so they have something to play, but the point is that they're clearly okay with playing in such a format.

    By the way, there's something interesting I also noticed. From Return to Ravnica through Khans of Tarkir, they notably printed some expensive Modern staples into Standard. The shocklands in RTR block, Mutavault in a core set, Thoughtseize in Theros, and of course the fetchlands in Khans of Tarkir. During this time period, Standard was experiencing growth. They stopped doing this after Khans of Tarkir. After Khans of Tarkir was the point when Standard attendance started declining.

    Obviously, there were a lot of other factors that affected Standard's popularity, but I can't help but find that correlation to be amusing.

    Combine this with their atrocious management of standard, and complete inability to do functional set design anymore - they had a three set format for like, two decades, then all of a sudden it wasn't "sustainable" so they did a two set format, and now they're down to one set for each location? Their standard rotation policy changes basically every year now, and their banlist is a giant fucking joke that's spelled "we got rid of creature kill, counterspells, and LD, but left creature power levels at where they were when we were pumping up dumb duders to counteract the risk of playing critters when there was creature kill, counterspells, and LD".
    "One set for each location" is incorrect. What they did was change it so that rather than being locked into a particular number of sets for a location, they can be variable. For one location, they can have one set. For another, they could have three sets. Or they could have 4+ sets for one location if they think it's right. This allows them to have the right number of sets so that they don't have to stretch out mechanics over more sets than can sustain it or have to leave out some ideas due to having to squeeze it into just one or two sets. Granted, we'll see how good a judge they are of deciding how many sets to devote to any location, but the idea at least makes sense. You're misunderstanding them if you came away with the idea of just one set per location.

  17. #877
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Shit, I'm gonna take the unpopular road and go to bat for Rosewater.

    He's one of the last of his kind, a person who comes from a background that isn't Magic-related or some "geek culture"...thing. Rosewater had a real job in the real world that gave him a perspective that a lot of the folks they hire nowadays lack. WotC disproportionately pulls from the (pro) Magic scene in their hiring process and this results in a monoculture within the company; a bunch of people who grew up on on Magic and Magic-related media, who have no idea what it must be like to not be immersed in the game. This leads to inbred thinking, that's out of touch with average folks ($10 packs, crazy-rotation scheme switchups), and can't satisfy established players because of corporate/marketing priorities ("new players HATE interaction...our market research allows us to draw this specious conclusion!").

    Just compare Unstable to pretty much anything else released in the last five years of Magic. It's fun, light-hearted, imaginative, mechanically deep, complex, and all Rosewater's baby. Much better than the derivative, simplistic, and focus-grouped shit they've been shoveling into Standard packs for quite awhile now. Not really excited to bust packs of more NWO-compliant "draft-focused" sets full of boring, garbage cards and linear strategies signposted by multicolor uncommons. Y'know, like every set since Origins.

    Magic, and WotC, have a lot of problems, but I don't think MaRo's one of them.
    1) R&D is inbred exactly because Rosewater and his buddies (aka "the gang" like glassdoorreviews likes to call them) surround themselves with asskissers and Yes-sayers. Of course nothing good can come out of this echo chamber.

    2) Unstable was Maro's pet project and it turned out to be a success. Thing is, energy was also one of Maro's pet projects and the fallout surrounding it was massive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Honestly though, I think they need to take a look at Modern and notice how all the things they've kept out of Standard are there, but people like the format more than Standard. Part of that is of course it being nonrotating, but people are clearly not having issues playing a format where cards like Blood Moon and Stone Rain are legal, or where combos can consistently kill you on turn 4, or where your huge creature can get exiled for 1 mana, or where any number of things that supposedly aren't fun or too powerful for Standard are legal. Is there complaining about some of these things? Sure, but note how people will complain but keep playing Modern, whereas in Standard people would complain and stop playing.
    People are drawn to powerful things. Of course people prefer to play the original Lightning Bolt over some shitty 3 mana knock-off (same applies to everything else where they slap a casual + on the manacost). When the return of fucking Llanowar Elves to Standard is a reason to celebrate, you know that something went wrong. Very wrong.

    It's sad how disconnected WotC is from the playerbase sometimes. Return sets in general miss the mark because they nerf or dismiss what made the original block good in the first place. E.g.:
    - RTR's guilds having barely mechanical connections to the original guilds and then WotC acts suprised when people complain about Forecast and Detain having nothing in common about.
    - BFZ: People loved the adventure feel of Zendikar and got an Eldrazi war instead. At least they brought popular mechanics back - except the new Allies are garbage for the most part and Landfall was so nerfed that there was only one good card in the entire block (the blue enchantment for the Knightfall combo). The best landfall card, Tireless Tracker, wasn't even in the same block!
    - SOI: People loved the the gothic horror, got eldritch abominations instead.

    Maybe their market research is as incompent as the rest of the company. It wouldn't be that farfetched, even.

  18. #878

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    I looked at the stats on this last banning. The most striking conclusion I reached was this: Assuming all cards currently banned in Standard remain banned for their entire lifetime in Standard, this will be the longest Standard has ever gone with a non-zero number of cards banned.

    And here's some history:
    Interesting that the other times there were mass bannings, they were over really powerful or busted cards like Academy, Windfall, Earthcraft, Time Spiral, Memory Jar, Recurring Nightmare, Dream Halls, Ravager, Skullclamp and Artifact lands, whereas the most recent one I would say has nothing even close to the same individual card power level, so they basically everything else was just so underpowered that energy was the only really strong thing you could do in the format.

  19. #879

    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    2) Unstable was Maro's pet project and it turned out to be a success. Thing is, energy was also one of Maro's pet projects and the fallout surrounding it was massive.
    Energy was a great idea. It's development's fault for not including any reasonable answers to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    People are drawn to powerful things. Of course people prefer to play the original Lightning Bolt over some shitty 3 mana knock-off (same applies to everything else where they slap a casual + on the manacost). When the return of fucking Llanowar Elves to Standard is a reason to celebrate, you know that something went wrong. Very wrong.
    Actually, I question whether this is a good idea. Don't get me wrong, I generally have no problem with Llanowar Elves or similar effects being in Standard, but doing it in the exact same set as a GGG 5/4 that can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less? (Seems rather risky.

    It seems like the Golgari Grave-Troll being banned in Modern: Year after year they declined to unban a card that wouldn't be a problem at all. Then when they finally did unban it, they did it with cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion coming down the pipeline. A card is considered too powerful to be in a format when it would've been okay, then they finally decide to return it in the same set as Steel Leaf Champion.

    It's sad how disconnected WotC is from the playerbase sometimes. Return sets in general miss the mark because they nerf or dismiss what made the original block good in the first place. E.g.:
    - RTR's guilds having barely mechanical connections to the original guilds and then WotC acts suprised when people complain about Forecast and Detain having nothing in common about.
    - BFZ: People loved the adventure feel of Zendikar and got an Eldrazi war instead. At least they brought popular mechanics back - except the new Allies are garbage for the most part and Landfall was so nerfed that there was only one good card in the entire block (the blue enchantment for the Knightfall combo). The best landfall card, Tireless Tracker, wasn't even in the same block!
    - SOI: People loved the the gothic horror, got eldritch abominations instead.

    Maybe their market research is as incompent as the rest of the company. It wouldn't be that farfetched, even.
    I don't remember much in the way of complaints about Forecast and Detain not having that much in common. In fact, I actually thought Detain was a pretty cool mechanic. I think Return to Ravnica did do a pretty good job recapturing what people liked about the original Ravnica, even if Dragon's Maze was pretty mediocre.

    Also, I wasn't really playing Standard then, but wasn't Scars of Mirrodin fairly well liked, Caw-Blade aside?

  20. #880
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    Re: The current state of Magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Energy was a great idea. It's development's fault for not including any reasonable answers to it.
    I disagree with the sentiment that energy was a great idea (even though I'm a sucker for alternate resource systems). Energy was flawed by design due to being extremely parasitic. While most cards also provided energy while using it, that fact doesn't change. Energy being counters on players, making it nigh impossible to interact with it, is a design flaw. Development's main faults are a) not properly costing the mechanic and b) not recognising the need of answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Actually, I question whether this is a good idea. Don't get me wrong, I generally have no problem with Llanowar Elves or similar effects being in Standard, but doing it in the exact same set as a GGG 5/4 that can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less? (Seems rather risky.

    It seems like the Golgari Grave-Troll being banned in Modern: Year after year they declined to unban a card that wouldn't be a problem at all. Then when they finally did unban it, they did it with cards like Prized Amalgam and Cathartic Reunion coming down the pipeline. A card is considered too powerful to be in a format when it would've been okay, then they finally decide to return it in the same set as Steel Leaf Champion.
    The main problem is that they brought themselves into a position where Llanowar Elves could be considered "too good" in the first place. That should have never happened. Whether or not Steel Leaf Champion might be problematic depends entirely on the format having proper removal or not.

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