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Thread: Petition to end the reserved list policy

  1. #161
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Why would you want a middle or high school Legacy player? Playing against adults too difficult?
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at unless you're implying I hope to just "bottom feed" against a younger player in an event. That's not where I'm going with the discussion. The point I'm making is that there is no "new blood" being brought into legacy. The average age of people I personally play against has to be mid-to-late 20s. A majority of the top players I know are over 30. I find it upsetting on a macro level to realize there are no younger players participating in the format.

    @ParkerLewis' last comment is where I completely agree. The player base is just eroding over time. I also see it aging. On one end, young players aren't joining. On the other end, people are starting families. Meanwhile, prices rise. There is a very "have vs have not" mentality going on. I'm not asking for or expecting dual lands to be free. I still think cards should have some value. But creating a financial barrier for playing in the format is detrimental to its long term health.

  2. #162
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    I'm sure there are many high school Legacy players harder to beat than you (and I'm not raging, I'm closer to my thirties)
    Want to put your money where your mouth is? I'm free all day to play some Xmage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warden View Post
    I'm not sure what you are trying to get at unless you're implying I hope to just "bottom feed" against a younger player in an event. That's not where I'm going with the discussion. The point I'm making is that there is no "new blood" being brought into legacy. The average age of people I personally play against has to be mid-to-late 20s. A majority of the top players I know are over 30. I find it upsetting on a macro level to realize there are no younger players participating in the format.
    But new blood is entering the format, just not at the age bracket you want it to. Most of the new Legacy players are recent college grads with jobs and stuff. Is that not good enough for you? If you want a massive influx of Legacy players you're going to get an increase in WotC intervention with the format and that's something no one wants.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  3. #163

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    Also, it's not only keeping out immature kids, but also very mature players I know who've been in the game for 15-20 years but with other financial duties (getting married, kids and a house - their wife does "allow" them to go play magic but you can't really defend spending 2000$ on just one deck if you know what a newborn kid costs. For this reason I most likely have to sell out of Legacy again in 1-2 years myself )
    That's part of life. As The Rolling Stones said "you can't always get what you want." I love violin. I want to own a Stradivarius. It sucks I wasn't born in the 18th century (alluding to people who bought into
    Legacy 20 years ago). Do you know what I do instead? Buy a modern violin. I still "play" the violin, but it's not what I want. Nothing is stopping proxies or sharpie users from kitchen top legacy. No one is "entitled" to play legacy just as how I'm not entitled to a multi million dollar violin.

  4. #164
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Strat is dead, he ain't building another instrument. Underground Sea is a printable item. It's not the same.

    On one had we have something that CAN'T be done, one the other we have something that CAN be done. Easy really.

    Also I am tapping out here. This thread is going to end up locked I reckon, I am likely going to be the one to do it. So I am stepping away so it doesn't look like I triggered that. I think this talk is actually valuable. It's hard to get people to actually defend the list, it's not a popular thing to do. So while I feel your arguments are weak, ineffectual and full of holes, I am glad we are actually talking about this. Nothing ever changes in an echo chamber.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  5. #165

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    But new blood is entering the format
    Source ? If there is evidence that there are more Legacy players than 5 years ago, I'd be happy to hear it. Also, to be taken with a grain of salt, since apparently the general number of Magic players has gone up +35% each year from 2012 to 2014, so even if there temporarily is more players, it may very well simply be a simple mechanical effect from a larger Magic population overall (which is great but would mean additional Legacy players could be a temporary side-effect). But if you have numbers on this, that'd still be welcome news.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    If you want a massive influx of Legacy players you're going to get an increase in WotC intervention with the format and that's something no one wants.
    Seems like a very strange argument. First off, I'd take a WotC-format over a dead one any day of the week.

    Second, WotC has basically always been very offhand regarding Legacy. When did they really ever fiddle with it ?

    - In 2004 when they created it
    - In 2007 to nuke Hulk Flash out of the format
    - In 2013 to ban MM
    - In 2015 to ban Cruise & DTT

    And I'm pretty sure everyone was happy they acted on each of these instances. Other than that they've just been once in a while getting cards off the list, which everyone seems also quite happy with.

    Any assumptions about a change of behavior regarding Legacy are just random. Additional assumptions on top of this that it would suddenly become badly managed make for a very weak argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Strat is dead, he ain't building another instrument. Underground Sea is a printable item. It's not the same.
    This. The comparison is completely inadequate. And even if it wasn't, just because something is or isn't fucked up makes absolutely no justification that something else should / needs to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  6. #166
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    I'm right there with @ParkerLewis and @Dice_Box. This quote exemplifies my thoughts:

    First off, I'd take a WotC-format over a dead one any day of the week.

  7. #167
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    If they're reprinted small amounts of reserve list cards collectors value would go up. Revised would take a hit but they would rebound a decent amount. White boarder cards are easier to find land wise when fetching and there is some nostalgia, he'll you might see more of those white boarder my deck dudes pop up. At this point they have learned a ton as we all know and they see the value as gold bricks in their closet to sell sets: see expeditions/masterpiece/whatever and goyf is the ultimate value flag when it comes to how they reprint.

    One thing to consider is that when you have more players, you have a larger customer pool which makes your odds of having buyers for original prints goes up. Most players of older formats typically want original art. Collectors still want original printings. Look at original rares that are playable that have been reprinted into oblivion. A/b/u Birds of paradise, a/b/u shivan dragon, erhnam djinn, Serendib efreet- goes on and on. A comic book company can reprint the first appearance of superman #1 but the original still holds, granted there are differences because you cannot 'play' with a comic but how many people are playing with a beta shivan dragon- looking at prices on original prints the value is based on rarity no matter the reprint.

    I'd imagine the biggest complainers are the spec community that are tearing up right now over the MM reprints, they would bath in their own rears on Twitter with a cornacopia of empty threats. Then you have the silent weirdo hoarders with millions invested, calling lawyers at the drop of a dime. There are prob some misc smaller companies that would write some shitty articles and a letter to wotc but that's about it. Finally your randos who will bitch while your trying to play a game. I think there are enough of the silent weirdo hoarders in their community to threaten wotc with costly and annoying lawsuits that prob make it not worth it and pushes their law team to advise them not to pursue with deconstructing or creating a loophole for the list.

    I got cards and I'm fine with the list going, sincerely best of luck to anyone that can convince them.
    Tusk Up

  8. #168
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Source ? If there is evidence that there are more Legacy players than 5 years ago, I'd be happy to hear it. Also, to be taken with a grain of salt, since apparently the general number of Magic players has gone up +35% each year from 2012 to 2014, so even if there temporarily is more players, it may very well simply be a simple mechanical effect from a larger Magic population overall (which is great but would mean additional Legacy players could be a temporary side-effect). But if you have numbers on this, that'd still be welcome news.
    The best I can do is tournament attendance.

    I tried to compare SCG events in the same regions.
    SCG Open - Somerset (NJ) 2015 - 523 players
    SCG Open - Edison, NJ 2011 - 294 players

    SCG Open - Baltimore 2016 - 312 players
    SCG Open - Baltimore 2012 - 287 players

    SCG Open - Richmond 2014 - 225 players
    SCG Open - Richmond 2010 - 179 players

    As for GPs, those were easier to find so here's all the ones for Legacy for the past 5 years.

    American GPs (has probably reached a plateau for the time being, but still signifcantly more than 5 years ago):
    2011 Providence Legacy 28–29 May 2011 - 1179
    2012 Indianapolis Legacy 10–11 March 2012 - 1214
    2012–13 Atlanta Legacy 30 June–1 July 2012 - 905
    2012–13 Denver Legacy 5–6 January 2013 - 700
    2013–14 Washington, D.C. Legacy 16–17 November 2013 - 1698
    2014–15 New Jersey Legacy 14–16 November 2014 - 4003
    2015–16 Seattle Legacy 7–8 November 2015 - 2014
    2015–16 Columbus Legacy 11-12 June 2016 - 1824
    2016–17 Louisville Legacy 6-8 January 2017 - 1607

    European GPs (with the exception of Amsterdam and Prague, attendance has been trending up compared to previous years):
    2011 Amsterdam Legacy 22–23 October 2011 - 1878
    2012–13 Ghent Legacy 21–22 July 2012 - 1345
    2012–13 Strasbourg Legacy 13–14 April 2013 - 1364
    2013–14 Paris Legacy 14–16 February 2014 - 1587
    2014–15 Lille Legacy 4–5 July 2015 - 1548
    2015–16 Prague Legacy 11-12 June 2016 - 1480

    Asian GPs:
    2014–15 Kyoto Legacy 18–19 April 2015 - 1943
    2016–17 Chiba Legacy 26-27 November 2016 - 2503

    Here's Eternal Weekend:

    NA:
    EW NA 2016 - 410 players
    EW NA 2011 - 293 players

    Europe:
    EW Europe 2016 - 294 players
    EW Belgium 2011 *not sure if this is actually affiliated with EW as we know it - 105 players

    Seems like a very strange argument. First off, I'd take a WotC-format over a dead one any day of the week.

    Second, WotC has basically always been very offhand regarding Legacy. When did they really ever fiddle with it ?

    - In 2004 when they created it
    - In 2007 to nuke Hulk Flash out of the format
    - In 2013 to ban MM
    - In 2015 to ban Cruise & DTT

    And I'm pretty sure everyone was happy they acted on each of these instances. Other than that they've just been once in a while getting cards off the list, which everyone seems also quite happy with.
    Yes, and those are 4 changes as opposed to the tens of changes that Modern has seen due to WotC interference since its inception. If many more people start playing Legacy, WotC's hand will be forced to start curating it more if they decide to use it as a source of revenue. That means more bans will be inevitable in order to keep attendance high and appease the masses so they keep spending money on supplementary product specifically for Legacy and continue attending Legacy events.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  9. #169
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    If you don't agree don't sign, i'm not forcing to sign

  10. #170
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Also something that doesn't usually get considered, probably also cuz it's very unlikely to happen (I give abolishing the RL a higher chance), but imho it's one of the better things that could happen after RL reprints or legendary/snow duals:

    Ban ABUR duals in Commander; whenever I sell off my spare duals, they get bought by local EDH players. There are a lot of EDH players. Not all of them have real duals, but as they mature more and more finish their decks by getting ABURs. Every EDH player (who isn't also a Legacy player) that buys duals, makes it harder for people to buy into Legacy as they raise prices - I can't prove it but personally I'm convinced part of the steady growth in dual prices is more related to EDH players than to Legacy, as that format isn't growing so much as to 2,5uple Underground Seas since I bought them a few years ago. (at least over here, Legacy tournament attendance was about the same when I started as it is today - so not dying nor growing)

  11. #171

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by AznSeal View Post
    That's part of life. As The Rolling Stones said "you can't always get what you want." I love violin. I want to own a Stradivarius. It sucks I wasn't born in the 18th century (alluding to people who bought into
    Legacy 20 years ago). Do you know what I do instead? Buy a modern violin. I still "play" the violin, but it's not what I want.
    Quite a few major differences. First, it's not possible to make a Stradivarius because they were defined by being made by a specific group of people. Second, a modern violin is not any less functional than a Stradivarius; they both will do the exact same thing, and in fact modern violins might be better. People get Stradivariuses for prestige, not functionality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    The best I can do is tournament attendance.
    The problem with the argument "look! More people are at these big events!" is ignoring the fact how much fewer of them there are. If there was a Legacy Open every single freaking weekend like there was in the past, of course you'd see fewer people incentivized to go to them because they have more options and more opportunities to play. But if there's only a few in a year, people will be more willing to try to go to a particular one because they have fewer opportunities.

    Yes, and those are 4 changes as opposed to the tens of changes that Modern has seen due to WotC interference since its inception.
    That's because Modern as a format has a lot more problems than Legacy has had. That's not to say Legacy doesn't have some of its own, but in Modern they don't bother with decent answers or safety valves so something or other keeps getting broken and then they ban stuff.

    I think there were also some big goofs made at the start of the format. When Legacy was first made, there wasn't a rush so I figure they had a lot of time to think things through, plus it was an offshoot of another format so they had better data. When Modern was "officially" made for the Pro Tour (it sort of existed beforehand but only for a month or two and had a much shorter banned list), it was a last minute decision and they probably had to just hammer out some kind of a banned list in a week or two. Questionable decisions made regarding bannings back then (as well as the also questionable starting point) are still hurting the format.

    Of course, if you want to count the start of Legacy as the creation of Type 1.5, I should point out there quite a few more bannings that occurred in the first 5 years of that format than Modern (more than 20!).

  12. #172
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    - I end up having sold (or given, it looks like) my cards so I'm out of the format. So definitely not a win for me.
    - Instead one other person is in the format. One Legacy player has been replaced by another. That's just not a win for the format either.

    In my book, this is more like nobody wins...

    By not increasing the supply of cards, the number of players slowly erodes to oblivion.



    I think you're saying you are not willing to see your cards end up being worth less than, or "drop down too much compared to", what you paid for them. Can you confirm / tell me if this is indeed the actual issue ? (this is not a trap question, it's a sincere effort on my part to try to pinpoint the source of the issue).

    Any drop in prices would suck, but of course 10 to 20% wouldn't be dramatic. I currently own 52 duals, 50 of which are WB (a playset of every one Revised, and I also own a complete UNL set). As people here have correctly said, the WB duals would tank the hardest. I bought them under the promise that no reprints would be made, I expect that promise to hold. I could post some obligatory bullshit about how I'm 'sorry for those people who didn't get theirs, but...' but that'd be bullshit. Truth be told, I don't give a damn about who didn't get his duals by now. Nobody gave them to me at a discount price, I didn't hold my breath waiting for reprints either.

  13. #173

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    The best I can do is tournament attendance.
    Interesting sum up. Things aren't yet bleak on this aspect, and that's good to know. To be seen how much is due to Magic general's growth / how much more would it be with lower Legacy prices.
    [I know it can sound like a way of refusing to be conclusive from the received data, but it really just so happens that in a context of significant overall Magic growth, tournament attendance can really only be a proof of Legacy dying if it were down, but can't really be used in the opposite way if it goes up. Also, would need to take into account a few year delay. The declining number of events also matters as Lors Seth pointed out. And also... Well, this wasn't the subject. Let's just say, glad that for now Legacy numbers are not overwhelmingly worse.]

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    If many more people start playing Legacy, WotC's hand will be forced to start curating it more if they decide to use it as a source of revenue.
    That means more bans will be inevitable in order to keep attendance high and appease the masses so they keep spending money on supplementary product specifically for Legacy and continue attending Legacy events.
    Once again, WotC's hand would not end up being forced to anything, simply because WotC isn't forced to do anything.

    First, more people playing Legacy =/= WotC deciding to use it as a direct source of revenue. It's already an indirect source, giving long-term value to old cards thus benefitting Magic's ecosystem.

    Second, WotC deciding to use it as a source of revenue =/= WotC banning cards left and right. Example ? You could make the opposite argument that WotC even already did use it as a direct source of revenue with Eternal Masters, yet Legacy's B&R management does not seem to have changed a bit.

    Finally, and dare I say this strikes me as quite shocking, I can't help but notice I'm quoting an argument starting with "If many more people start playing Legacy" that is then going on trying to explain how this would be bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Any drop in prices would suck, but of course 10 to 20% wouldn't be dramatic. I currently own 52 duals, 50 of which are WB (a playset of every one Revised, and I also own a complete UNL set)..
    Ok. I do also own my share of RL cards.

    I'm trying to gauge what you feel would be 'acceptable'. I'd dare say "0% drop vs what I bought them for" would be a bit unrealistic to expect from any kind of expenditure, but I'm just trying to find out where you're at. Do I correctly understand you would be 'realistically ok' as long as the selling value of your collection retains 80-90% of what you bought it for ? Is this ok with you if I try to go from this premise ?
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  14. #174
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    I wouldn't ragequit if they dropped to 80% OF PRESENT VALUE, but I would still be quite annoyed. The thing is, white bordered stuff would drop quite a lot more. The risk of them tanking way harder outweighs the potential benefits of a slight decrease, so screw the 'have nots'.

  15. #175
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    The problem with the argument "look! More people are at these big events!" is ignoring the fact how much fewer of them there are. If there was a Legacy Open every single freaking weekend like there was in the past, of course you'd see fewer people incentivized to go to them because they have more options and more opportunities to play. But if there's only a few in a year, people will be more willing to try to go to a particular one because they have fewer opportunities.
    I don't buy the "there's less of these large events so people will be more willing to travel to them." It's not like it's a trivial thing to travel to many of these venues. Plus, that only really explains the US side of the format because 1) there are so many more European eternal events in general, many moderately sized (<100 players) that we don't ever hear about and 2) the Asian scene is still relatively young yet just look at that growth; scarcity of events can only be a very minor factor in those cases.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  16. #176

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    I wouldn't ragequit if they dropped to 80% OF PRESENT VALUE, but I would still be quite annoyed.
    Not that it necessarily matters for where I wanted to go, but what's important about "PRESENT VALUE" ? Isn't the price you bought them the only reference that's important to you ?
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Not that it necessarily matters for where I wanted to go, but what's important about "PRESENT VALUE" ? Isn't the price you bought them the only reference that's important to you ?
    nope

  18. #178

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    nope
    Why ?
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  19. #179
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    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    I don't buy the "there's less of these large events so people will be more willing to travel to them." It's not like it's a trivial thing to travel to many of these venues. Plus, that only really explains the US side of the format because 1) there are so many more European eternal events in general, many moderately sized (<100 players) that we don't ever hear about and 2) the Asian scene is still relatively young yet just look at that growth; scarcity of events can only be a very minor factor in those cases.
    The Asian GPs aren't really an indicator of growth at all--there are tons of factors that actually account for the difference in attendance between Kyoto and Chiba. First of all, GP Kyoto preregistration was capped at 2000 players, and the cap was hit in a week so the attendance numbers cannot accurately reflect the number of players who would have participated if able. Chiba also had a cap, so the attendance numbers really only reflect that these events are reaching capacity. Another thing is that I live on the other side of the island from Kyoto--despite being only the size of California, travel within Japan is expensive and prohibitive for many people so the Japanese players in my area never even considered going to GP Kyoto; the only other people from up north who went were all Americans from the military base. Putting the GP in the middle of Japan (Chiba) suddenly made everyone in my area rush to get in under the preregistration cap.

    Furthermore, concerning your disbelief at the idea of people traveling to these events as a reason for boosting attendance... Kyoto was the first Legacy GP in the APAC region. There were a ton of players there from the Philippines, Australia, and other places that have never had a Legacy GP before. Looking at the calendar, Chiba was also clearly the last APAC Legacy GP for the next two years (if they ever have one again) and this was a known factor during preregistration. About half of the players I faced off against in both of these GPs were not Asian. When it comes to Asia at least, you are wrong in your belief: people traveled from all over the place because they wanted to play in an Asian Legacy GP and this might just be the last one.

  20. #180

    Re: Petition to end the reserved list policy

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Why ?
    Because no one keeps track of stuff according to initial value. Present value is always used. Try selling a used car for "initial value" or try buying a Stradivarius for "initial value."

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