Czech Pile (UBGr Control)

[Tomas Mar]

Thanks for the reply! Would you be willing to supply your latest list + a primer? Seems like we're finally ready to move into established, plus I'm super curious why you prefer Wasteland over the two/three basics.

the list is pretty much the same i am trying various versions of removals and countrips so i dont have solid 75 yet and this was my last version - main is like 57-59 cards same ( i dont run 3 decay anymore for sure ) and side is like 12 cards same depends on meta and i dont play mtgo at this time
wateland is better because you need to get rid of cards like karakas ,inkmot ,mutavalut , boseiju , tar pit ,cefalid colloseum , dark depts and other land stuf and mainly grove of the burnwelous !!!! and when oyu are on play the cards is just so powerfull when you use it correctly - you can bassicly chose to return 1turn back and kill the color oyu dont like and it doesnt cost you anything , sure basic are better vs moon , back to basic and other stuff like vterean explorer or price of progres - but you ussualy want to deal with those cards anyway but oyu cant force or discard land cards

[fadgames]

the list is pretty much the same i am trying various versions of removals and countrips so i dont have solid 75 yet and this was my last version - main is like 57-59 cards same ( i dont run 3 decay anymore for sure ) and side is like 12 cards same depends on meta and i dont play mtgo at this time
wateland is better because you need to get rid of cards like karakas ,inkmot ,mutavalut , boseiju , tar pit ,cefalid colloseum , dark depts and other land stuf and mainly grove of the burnwelous !!!! and when oyu are on play the cards is just so powerfull when you use it correctly - you can bassicly chose to return 1turn back and kill the color oyu dont like and it doesnt cost you anything , sure basic are better vs moon , back to basic and other stuff like vterean explorer or price of progres - but you ussualy want to deal with those cards anyway but oyu cant force or discard land cards

Yea that makes a lot of sense. I just wonder what, then, makes this deck choice superior to, say, Grixis Delver? Or if you're going on a more discard-heavy package, why not Sultai?

I guess my main question is what's the draw to this deck nowadays? I played it pre-top ban, and it was so strong versus Miracles and the rest of the metagame; won my byes to GP Vegas with it. Now, though, I feel like the fair matchups are all beating up on me (Elves has proven troublesome especially). And with 4c Stoneblade posting good numbers both online and in live tournaments, it seems hard to be on this deck at the moment.

[ashent]

Finished another league with Czech Pile and started 3-0, ending with a disappointing 3-2.

I am not firmly sold that this deck is no longer relevant and will keep working on it. If I do another league and end 4-1 or better I will upload it to my channel, which does a lot of Legacy only content.

[MorphBerlin]

The main difference I see in the lists is Counterspell vs Hymn and neither is great versus Grixis Delver so I don't see how that would be a problem (Lili is also not at her best here). 3 AD seems no longer necessary, moving to bolt/push is a lot easier on the Mana and makes us faster.

[LarsLeif]

I think that since the top banning the deck has splintered into different directions. My list has now morphed into a UB splash Kolaghan's Command list, which is very controlling and have discarded the midrange elements almost completely. But I believe the more traditional list to be strong still as well, but it has other weaknesses. But there is a larger differnaces than just CS or Hymn.

[MorphBerlin]

I think that since the top banning the deck has splintered into different directions. My list has now morphed into a UB splash Kolaghan's Command list, which is very controlling and have discarded the midrange elements almost completely. But I believe the more traditional list to be strong still as well, but it has other weaknesses. But there is a larger differnaces than just CS or Hymn.

I must say I like the reduction of green as well. AD is not really needed imo. Yeah you might get some more free losses against chalice/moon but agaisnt the vast majority of the decks it doesn't really make a difference. Leo is kind of free as we need 1 Trop for DRS anyway, so we have 4 DRS and 1 Trop or in case we can't generate Green we just pitch him.

[LarsLeif]

My version plays several basics and is essentially UB, so it doesn't lose to moon (I play one myself right now) and it also plays 3 Kolaghan's Command so it doesn't really lose to chalice either. The only cards that you worry about is Food Chain and Choke.

[Tomas Mar]

Yea that makes a lot of sense. I just wonder what, then, makes this deck choice superior to, say, Grixis Delver? Or if you're going on a more discard-heavy package, why not Sultai?

I guess my main question is what's the draw to this deck nowadays? I played it pre-top ban, and it was so strong versus Miracles and the rest of the metagame; won my byes to GP Vegas with it. Now, though, I feel like the fair matchups are all beating up on me (Elves has proven troublesome especially). And with 4c Stoneblade posting good numbers both online and in live tournaments, it seems hard to be on this deck at the moment.

To be honest this deck is designed for really good players - it has pretty good mu vs almost all of the played decks . The thing is how this deck is designed ( answer over thread ), that is why it is so difficult to play . It doesnt have any free wins ( like delver into pyro into waste with daze on play ) , but it can answer any card in the format . So if 2 decks are designed for wining and have planty of free win cards the mu is more about luck than skill . But this deck is designed for (not loosing) and every clunky card that is not nessesary has been cut in the past or will be cut soon :D .like 3rd waste atc . But the deck wont be better if you cut specific answer like liliana and add nemesis because you will lose raise anyway so the only 2 ways to go are to commit to control version without straight threads like tnn or go the easier way for threads - but oyu will always lose to some mus and sometimes even mirror even if you are much better player than your oponent .
BTW I love nemessis and it can be really good in some versions even control ones it is strong card and it has many reasons to be in your deck . But the reasons must be smart not that you dont have any finisher or that it cant be killed by normal removals . ( when i play discard in 1st round and my oponent has 2 or more removals I know that I wount probably lose the game )

[bum_man]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

[Tomas Mar]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

I dont moligan much and almost never for specific cards only if that hand is way below average generaly or vs that mu ( there are few specific mus where you cant keep some dead cards or you need to play something important at worst before his 2nd turn or have force like moon mu or have force vs all spells

[MorphBerlin]

Played the below list (minus 1 badlands in the posted list) to a top 4 finish last month and played slightly modified list to a disappointing finish this month. Changes were MD - 2 hymn and 2 inquisition for +1 bolt +1 Counterspell and 2 Thoughtseize sb - 1 clique, cspell forked bolt for +1 deluge, 2 pyroblast .

Just have a general playstyle question for other pilots, do you often find yourself doing mulligans to find relevant interaction vs specific matchups or do you think it's fine to keep lands and cantrips to just sculpt out a good hand that lines up against opponents as the game goes on? I was asking because the past 2 tournaments I found myself mulling to oblivion trying to find meaningful interaction against opponents. For some reason I keep getting hands that has a lot of lands and in some matchups I won on mull to 4s but in some matchups the card disadvantage was too to overcome.

I'm asking because I wanted to find out if it's a playstyle thing or that's just how this deck plays out given how its constructed. It's worth noting that I play in a very combo heavy meta with very minimal representation from blue midrange or control.

I mulligan very little with this deck, only because of low lands (allthoug I would keep 1 land plus cantrip if the rest is decent) or too many expensive spells.

[bum_man]

Okay. Thanks for your inputs! It may be just a case where I was up against fast combo like Belcher, ant, and br reanimator and my list wasn't tuned to be lined up properly with a combo meta. Missed my hymns that tournament, had a hard time getting any meaningful cards against these decks on 7 and 6 card hand (plus the usual no land hands). Will retweak my list and try to get in more games.

[fadgames]

So this is the most recent 5-0 decklist online: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/662881#paper

I've actually found that the online meta pretty closely resembles the paper one currently, except where D&T is involved. There was a 43-man tournament at my store yesterday and the %s were nearly identical (Grixis/Sultai Delver leading the pack, with ANT/Sneak & Show very closely behind). That said, this particular list seems very streamlined. It moved to cutting Night's Whisper, and instead focuses on a more traditional grind ala Delver, but has better cards in the mid and late game. Any thoughts on this direction?

[talpa]

Sorry,
Is there a thread for a "more grixis" control, or is this the right place for decklist like this one?

Also, has anyone considered the madness of cutting the shamans for completely blanking the opponent removals, like this?

(I mean it seems a crazy idea, we all know how strong shaman is, but could be worth the sacrifice since it implies you have rooms for more control elements and more robust threats)

[mindcrank]

Sorry,
Is there a thread for a "more grixis" control, or is this the right place for decklist like this one?

Also, has anyone considered the madness of cutting the shamans for completely blanking the opponent removals, like this?

(I mean it seems a crazy idea, we all know how strong shaman is, but could be worth the sacrifice since it implies you have rooms for more control elements and more robust threats)

I find Shaman to be the best creature in this deck. It's great vs a number of combo decks, allows you to power out Leovold or TNN on Turn 2, helps vs burn, fixes our 4 color mana base. I can't imagine cutting it man...

[talpa]

I find Shaman to be the best creature in this deck. It's great vs a number of combo decks, allows you to power out Leovold or TNN on Turn 2, helps vs burn, fixes our 4 color mana base. I can't imagine cutting it man...

We all know how strong shaman is.
But this is not Reid Duke blade who whants to always put a 3-drop in play on the second turn. Actually, the Grixis I was speaking, even the more common ones with shamans, DO NOT PLAY leovold NOR nemesis. So what's your 3-drop? snapcaster mage, kolaghan.

As Tomas Mar said, you are happy when you see your opponent has two removals in hand because it means he has two useless cards, which is the same as you had two more cards in hand than him.
This is not so true if you play shaman, suddenly one of his cards is no more dead, and one of yours (shaman) is.
that's what I was trying to say.

Of course there are tradeoffs if you cut shamans... you risk more mana screw (and color screw) and you have less reach. But maybe it could be worth it.

[MorphBerlin]

We all know how strong shaman is.
But this is not Reid Duke blade who whants to always put a 3-drop in play on the second turn. Actually, the Grixis I was speaking, even the more common ones with shamans, DO NOT PLAY leovold NOR nemesis. So what's your 3-drop? snapcaster mage, kolaghan.

As Tomas Mar said, you are happy when you see your opponent has two removals in hand because it means he has two useless cards, which is the same as you had two more cards in hand than him.
This is not so true if you play shaman, suddenly one of his cards is no more dead, and one of yours (shaman) is.
that's what I was trying to say.

Of course there are tradeoffs if you cut shamans... you risk more mana screw (and color screw) and you have less reach. But maybe it could be worth it.

I think in a control mirror you might be right, though my assumption is that shaman gives the highest win% against the whole field.

I have a guy playing URg thing in the ice with pfire. I will try siding out shamans actually there cause they jsut die

[mindcrank]

I think in a control mirror you might be right, though my assumption is that shaman gives the highest win% against the whole field.

I have a guy playing URg thing in the ice with pfire. I will try siding out shamans actually there cause they jsut die

You know what's great against Punishing Fire? ~~ Leovold ~~

[bigbobbobber]

Since February I've been playing the version with 2 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare, no maindeck discard. Last night I decided to replace 2 Spell Snare with 2 Hymn to Tourach, and it was the best decision I've made. It single handily won me games that Spell Snare would not have. Ran over everyone, going 8-1 in games. The only time I missed Snare was against UR Delver since it's so good at countering Stormchaser Mage and Price of Progress, while Hymn is generally weaker against a deck as quick as theirs. I doubt anyone could convince me to run more discard in my list, but for now I'll be sticking to 2 Hymns no Snares.

[mindcrank]

Since February I've been playing the version with 2 Counterspell and 2 Spell Snare, no maindeck discard. Last night I decided to replace 2 Spell Snare with 2 Hymn to Tourach, and it was the best decision I've made. It single handily won me games that Spell Snare would not have. Ran over everyone, going 8-1 in games. The only time I missed Snare was against UR Delver since it's so good at countering Stormchaser Mage and Price of Progress, while Hymn is generally weaker against a deck as quick as theirs. I doubt anyone could convince me to run more discard in my list, but for now I'll be sticking to 2 Hymns no Snares.

Do you run 4 Underground Sea's in that build?