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Thread: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

  1. #101
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    @Qweerios : have you considered maybe playing 1x Snapcaster ? He doesn't have evasion but in case he can attack unblocked he's another nice creature to put back into your hand.

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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    @Qweerios : have you considered maybe playing 1x Snapcaster ? He doesn't have evasion but in case he can attack unblocked he's another nice creature to put back into your hand.
    Snapcaster definitely has potential here. Similar to Brazen you get an effect and the potential to buy it back. In Snapcaster's case the effect is less crucial but more flexible and the body is less likely to be bought back.

    As a replacement to Daze, Snap plays a very different role at a much higher cost. I think Ninjas are already potent at generating value via Strix, Foundry and the 6-7 Ninjas.

    I believe Snapcaster is eclipsed by Drown in the Loch in terms of flexibility. For 2 mana you can choose to hard counter or destroy a creature. This kind of flexibility takes a lot more work and mana to be achieved by a Snapcaster. Especially in Legacy where T2 Arcanist and T3 Oko require immediate answers that a later Snapcaster cannot mitigate. Perhaps the most compelling use of Snap is as Brainstorm #5-6 when drawing blanks or when recasting Pyroblast on Oko/Teferi.

    Disruption spells in general would better support the Ninja shell by allowing space for any sort of setup. I would rather add a Bolt or another Drown than a Snapcaster to give me additional space or control in the metagame if indeed they are superior to Daze.

    Daze tends to fit in low numbers for Ninjas. It is on-curve with a defining T2 Ninja play (or any defining Ninja play against a tapped out opponent). Daze further complements the free counterspell suite against fast Combo decks and allows breathing room for cantripping, Ninj-enabling or Thoughtseizing. Another notable and relevant use of Daze is against Control decks where it is extremely potent in the first 4 turns of the game when fighting a counter war for an Oko backed by Veil/Pierce/Pyro.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    @Qweerios : thanks for the thoughtful reply.

    Based on your build I've added Bolts as well. I get to play some games next sunday and find out how it goes.

    I noticed you play "only" 3 Retrofitter/Ornithopter/Outcast/Infiltrator + 4 Ponder.
    Are those enough to give you consistent Ninja plays on T2 ?
    Personally ( herecy statement coming ) I prefer 4 copies of each of those ( for consistency ) rather than 4 Ponder to look for them ( and other cards ofc )

    I also have only 3 Strix but 1 Spell Pierce.
    Going T1 With Ornithopter + open land for Spell Pierce seems preferable imo over Daze.

    Anyway, just for reference, this is what I currently have :

    //Lands
    1 Badlands
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island

    //Artifacts
    4 Retrofitter Foundry

    //Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Daze
    2 Drown in the Loch
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will

    //Creatures
    4 Ornithopter
    4 Changeling Outcast
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
    3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
    4 Ingenious Infiltrator

    //Sideboard
    1 Dread of Night
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Abrade
    2 Plague Engineer

  4. #104
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    @Borg,

    The best argument in favor of Ponder is probably the fact that it drastically reduces your mulligan rate. One-landers with a cantrip are automatic keeps while ninjutsu hands with 1 lands are automatic mulligans. Ponder is also a very good card at setting up draw sequences for Yuriko.

    In theory, the faster you deploy a ninja and the longer the game lasts, the more advantage you produce over time. In practice, if you aren't playing the most degenerate combination of cards before your opponent, Legacy is a format where you need the right cards at the right time. To me, spending all my mana and first few turns on a combination of cards that are both telegraphed and vulnerable is the quickest way to lose the game.

    For example:

    Streamlined Ninja play pattern with backup vs. carefully planned development against a UR Delver opponent.

    -T1 Thopter + Outcast into T2 Ninja with Force backup on the play (dream opener) vs. a Bolt with a Daze/Force backup.

    Aftermath: Tapped out with 0/2 Flyer + 1/1 Unblockable with 2 cards less in hand. We gave our aggressive tempo opponent a virtual 5 for 2 trade. We now need to:

    -find and/or resolve another Ninja/Foundry to leverage our dead cards;
    -avoid drawing into more Thopters and Outcasts;
    -prevent our opponent from riding an Arcanist/Pyro to victory.
    -do all this while they only have to care about shutting down our next ninja or Foundry.

    or

    -T1 Thopter or Outcast play with the option of following up with a Ninja or casting Ponder for additional land development mitigating Wasteland/Daze in order to resolve a Strix or a removal spell. Playing it patiently in this scenario allows us to decide at what moment we want to ninjutsu (perhaps when our opponent taps out?) and with what pieces we do so (ninjutsu from a Strix incurs no card disadvantage).

    You can imagine a similar scenario against a control deck where you gave them a window for a devastating removal spell and tapped out for them to safely resolve Oko/Teferi which is arguably worse than the UR Delver scenario. Against a combo deck, taping out for 1-2 random cards over 2 turns isn't as good as sculpting your hand during the first 1-3 turns.

    The streamlined strategy is better against passive decks like 12-post and High Tide. Ponder makes a more resilient deck that fares better against interactive decks and decks that pose an immediate threat. Do note that these are not mutually exclusive either. You can play a streamlined list with Ponder if you desire. If I put myself in my opponent's shoes, I prefer facing down a predictable deck than one actively trying to shut me down. I believe the best ninjutsu is the one where both players are in topdeck mode with a clear board.



    There are other reasons why I chose to play 3 copies of most cards in the deck. I already explained how I played 2-3-4 copies of certain cards before and why I chose to play 2-3 copies in the end. The biggest difference IMO is between 3 copies and 4 copies for statistical relevance in an average game of Magic. 4 copies of a card gives you a net increase in your odds of drawing 2 copies in the early turns and much higher odds of seeing a second copy during the course of a longer game. By this reasoning I definitely don't want more than 3 copies of Thopter and Outcast. What's the point of jumping through all these hoops of enabling a Ninja off a Thopter if you are stuck with multiple dead cards? Besides, with a total of 10 enablers (3 Thopter, 3 Outcasts, 3 Strix), Ninjas will be enabled, it's just a matter of when.

    Another reason why I chose 3 copies of Thopter and Outcast is so that I could sideboard them out more easily. Strix and Coatl just laugh at Thopter while Outcast automatically dies to Plague Engineer. Strix is the only reliable setup for a ninja in some matchups.

    I play 4 Strix because they singlehandedly transform Delver matchups from unfavorable to favorable and Eldrazi matchups from very unfavorable to favorable. Strix is also the best way to get card advantage from Ninjas against a control opponent. Being blue and cantriping is always relevant and why I never side them out.

    I play 3 Bolts because they are a replacement to Fatal Push and not an integral card to my strategy. The red splash is for SB Pyroblasts and Abrade, not for Bolts. I used to play Decay instead but figured I needed Pyroblasts to deal with resolved Oko, Teferi, and Narset through Veil of Summer. Countering Strix/Coatl/Snapcaster is also super relevant. Playing a total of 6 removal spells (3 Bolts + 3 Drown) gives you an estimate of 1 removal spell per 10 cards, which is exactly the odds you want when keeping a Ponder/Brainstorm opener. Given the choice between drawing 2 Bolts or 1 Bolt and a Drown, I take the latter in 99% of cases. Drawing 2 Bolts against a Control or Combo deck when you are already trying to justify Outcasts and Thopters compounds our "dead cards" conundrum. I would only play 4 copies of Bolt the same way I would play 4 copies of Push, which would be in meta saturated in Delver, DnT, and Goblins.

    For your list, which seems to be more streamlined, I would definitely play an 18th land in order to maximize your odds of a 2 land opener. I would likely cut Pierce for a 10th Fetch. Lists with 4 Thopter and 4 Outcast utilize Foundry much better and can afford to play 4 copies more reliably as you are. I also think a green splash is better for a more tap-out style of play as you are more likely to need a universal answer for resolved permanents when you proactively spend your mana on ninjas.

    Also, why do you pack 2 Needles in your SB? For what cards do you usually bring them in for?
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    @Qweerios

    Thanks for taking the time to explain your card choices. It's great to get this insight in one's reasoning behind his deck.
    It was really enlightening to read that you didn't splash red for the Bolts but because you wanted access to Pyroblast ( and Abrade ) so you could push through Veil.

    And just when I wanted to ask you about a green splash ( instead of red ) so you could run Abrupt Decay and Oko you touched on it before I could mention it.
    Because Decay cannot be countered, it looks to me that they are somewhat more forgiving than Bolts, no ?
    Bolts may be better in the hands of a more experienced player who has an excellent knowledge of the metagame and what's coming up in an opponent's deck.

    Unfortunately, that's where I'm currently lacking.
    Even though I started playing Magic in 97/98 during the Tempest/Stronghold days, I've been out of the game for long stretches of time.
    I don't get to play as much as I would like anymore and catching up is difficult without lots of games. It's frustrating to realize you're behind on the learning curve :)

    I understand, often you don't want to see another Outcast whereas when playing four Retrofitter I see an extra Outcast simply as a 4/4 Construct for 1 mana.

    As to your question about the needles : their prime targets are Planeswalkers like Oko or Karn so I can save the counterspells/Brazen for other means.
    Two copies to let me draw one faster and more reliably. I feel 1 copy is not enough, may never show up or just too late.

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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    @Qweerios

    Thanks for taking the time to explain your card choices. It's great to get this insight in one's reasoning behind his deck.
    It was really enlightening to read that you didn't splash red for the Bolts but because you wanted access to Pyroblast ( and Abrade ) so you could push through Veil.

    And just when I wanted to ask you about a green splash ( instead of red ) so you could run Abrupt Decay and Oko you touched on it before I could mention it.
    Because Decay cannot be countered, it looks to me that they are somewhat more forgiving than Bolts, no ?
    Bolts may be better in the hands of a more experienced player who has an excellent knowledge of the metagame and what's coming up in an opponent's deck.

    Unfortunately, that's where I'm currently lacking.
    Even though I started playing Magic in 97/98 during the Tempest/Stronghold days, I've been out of the game for long stretches of time.
    I don't get to play as much as I would like anymore and catching up is difficult without lots of games. It's frustrating to realize you're behind on the learning curve :)

    I understand, often you don't want to see another Outcast whereas when playing four Retrofitter I see an extra Outcast simply as a 4/4 Construct for 1 mana.

    As to your question about the needles : their prime targets are Planeswalkers like Oko or Karn so I can save the counterspells/Brazen for other means.
    Two copies to let me draw one faster and more reliably. I feel 1 copy is not enough, may never show up or just too late.
    I am happy you appreciate the insight! I do enjoy sharing and getting feedback about different builds.

    The green splash is where I had the most initial success with the deck during the W6 era. I moved to red when Goyf/W6 left the format and Oko + Veil started taking over. One of the perks of the green splash is having the Crop Rotation package in the SB with Karakas and Bog. This little package frees up mainboard space for some Oko of our own since you don't really need Brazen Borrower when you have access to mainboard Decay and SB Crop-Karakas. It also gives you a lot of percentage points against all the GY decks, Depths, Reanimator and Hogaak in particular that cant be overstated. Abrade is not necessary when you pack Decay. I would still be on the green splash with 18 lands, 3-4 Decays, a pair of Okos and that lovely Crop SB package if Veil of Summer did not require me to play Pyroblast.

    I play with 1 Needle every now and then but I can never justify the 2nd copy. I rarely play Needle because I "need" to draw it but because it narrows my decision tree. Much like you mentionned when saving counterspells for other targets. My most common targets for Needle tend to be:

    -Oko and nothing else against Snowko decks
    -Vial or Mother/Equipment if I am in a pinch vs DnT and Maverick
    -Wasteland against Lands and rarely Stage/Maze
    -Sneak Attack against SnT and rarely Griselbrand
    -Hexmage, Stage, or Reclaimer against Depths
    -Karn against stompy decks
    -Nexus against Infect

    These are about the only matchups I bring Needle in and that's quite narrow for my taste. The main problem I have with Needle is that it isn't even a reliable answer against half of those decks because:

    -DnT can flicker it for equipment activations. Needle is very good vs. Vial though and Vial is problematic...
    -Lands plays Force of Vigor and EE postboard as a preventive plan for hate cards
    -HexDepths plays all the Decays postboard and already has 2 avenues to combo off
    -Prison Karn decks are already extremely favorable and the aggro ones don't care about Needle

    So really I end up playing Needle mainly for Oko and Vial... However Oko is very popular and Needle is great here at making our opponent hinge on Return to Nature which is already required for Foundry.

    On an unrelated note I played a 30ish player weekly tonight to another 4-0 finish. This time I had some pretty close calls in a few matchups. I wasn't surprised to crush Reanimator and Storm but Hogaak is still very difficult to manage and Bant Miracles is always so delicate to navigate. I am still unsure if Cage is the way to go against Hogaak because they pack Force of Vigor and Decay postboard. Surgical is underwhelming here so perhaps Crypt is the way to go. Against Miracles and Hogaak I could have used a 4th Foundry.
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    Since you're playing Grixis Ninjas, a card that definitely needs consideration imo is The Royal Scions

    The Scions come at the same cost as Oko and he finds room in Sultai Ninja decks.
    From a power level standpoint, the Scions are at the same level or not far behind Oko and actually fit in Ninjas better than Oko ( again, IMHO )

    Oko's abilities have some overlap with the Retrofitters' and Retrofitters actually do it better ( 4/4 vs 3/3 ).

    What can the The Royal Scions bring to Grixis Ninjas ?

    - 3 very useful abilities for this deck. Let's start with the +1 ability that gives +2/+0, First Strike and Trample to another creature.

    - 2/2 First Strike, Trampling Ornithopters : Ornithopter by himself can actually become a threat and is no longer stopped by a defending Strix ( or any other flyer )
    First Strike means he'll take out a lot of potential blockers at the first contact and live to attack again thereafter.

    - 3/1 unblockable Changelings : this is like a black TNN but without the protection. All of a sudden this becomes a creature your opponent may have to spend a removal spell on to which you may react by turning it into a Construct. Which brings me to ...

    - 6/4 First Strike, Trampling Constructs : now we're talking. No longer chump blocking these monsters with a 1/1 token or a Strix. He'll walk straight over them ... and live.

    - 3/1 First Strike, Trampling Strixes of our own : in a mirror match this is a huge advantage imo. Theirs go down, ours may live on.

    - 5/1 First Strike, Trampling Borrowers : 5 power !!!

    - 3/3 Yuriko and 4/3 First Strike, Trampling Ninjas. The Trample seems to be most important here as this may allow them to connect and draw cards as opposed to being neutralized by chump blockers.

    Overall : the +2 power makes every creature a real threat, the First Strike allows them to survive contact ( even with Deathtouch opponents ) and continue to pressure and the Trample allows their big hitters to connect and continue to draw cards with the Ninjas.


    - The other +1 ability allows you to loot : digging deeper into your deck and replacing dead cards with new options, what's not to like.

    - Finally, the ultimate : draw four cards and deal 4 or more damage to any target means your deck just got more reach and your opponent better stay well above 4 life to play safe.


    I can see the Scions taking the place of a 4th Retrofitter and possibly your 4th Bolt.
    Probably need to go up to 18 lands.

    Curious to hear your opinion on this card.

  8. #108
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    @Borg,

    Thanks for the suggestion. I had not thought about Scion at all in this deck. Here are my immediate thoughts on the card:

    First, I don't think Scion is anywhere near Oko in terms of power level. Oko puts permanents on board and neutralizes threats. Scion loots (not even card advantage) and pumps for your attack step.

    Combining Oko with Foundry is great because you can now produce Elks every turn if you choose to or start trading Servos for any creature under 4 power.

    It's looting ability is fine. Nothing to write home about from a 3CMC PW but rarely wasteful. I like those kind of abilities granted that it can do something else, more impactful.

    Scion's pump ability is probably the one I will use the least. Usually if I am in a position to attack, I am tightening my grip on the game. Having +2, first strike and trample can help push the ninja trigger through but isn't something I've been struggling with in the first place. This ability is similar to Oko's Elk ability but only lasts until end of turn and cannot be used to shrink an opposing threat.

    The ultimate is great but so far away...

    I already don't have a 4th Foundry, 4th Bolt, or 18th land in my list so finding space for Scion would be a tall order.

    I think my main point of contempt with Scion is that it doesn't do what I expect this type of card to do for me. I don't play 3 mana planeswalkers to pump my creatures and give me a loot on my dead cards but to start building an insurmountable advantage against passive decks (Control mostly). I think this card does nothing against Combo decks in general and isn't very impactful against Aggro decks especially from a pinned position. Perhaps the most compelling argument I can make against playing Scion would be that I don't even think my Miracles opponent would spend a Pyroblast to get rid of it. They'd rather save it to push Oko through, wipe the board and proceed to ignore Scion altogether. To me that says it all about the card.
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    Ok, fair enough arguments.

    The scions might be a better fit then in a deck where their power pump may be more impactful, like with Dreadhorde Arcanist ...

    Mutavault is another card which has quite some synergy with retrofitter/ninjas but can't find a spot due to the manabase already being very tight, I reckon ?

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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Ok, fair enough arguments.

    The scions might be a better fit then in a deck where their power pump may be more impactful, like with Dreadhorde Arcanist ...

    Mutavault is another card which has quite some synergy with retrofitter/ninjas but can't find a spot due to the manabase already being very tight, I reckon ?
    It appears to me Mutavault would be good either with Standstill or with a Ninja in play on a clear board. I doubt I'll be playing Standstill anytime soon and a Ninja on a clear board is already a winning position. Mutavault being unable to add colored mana would also eat into better slots IMO.
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    Re: Stilljutsu - UB Ninja Still

    What a weekend just passed! I spent 3 days playing at 4 different Legacy events in my city. Needless to say I played a bunch and learned a thing or two, especially regarding sideboard plans. Here's a really quick recap:

    Event 1:

    0-2 Bant Miracles
    I drew blanks for way too long in G1. G2 I lost to the 3rd consecutive Entreat (2x Mystic Sanctuary). Fun fact, Entreat CMC is the X in the trigger times 2+2 on the stack so Drown really has a hard time hitting it.

    2-0 Punishing Maverick
    I would have lost G1 but my opponent missplayed. G2 was a cruise.

    2-0 Mentor Breach
    I had 3 Forces G1 and G2 was a bit more fair.

    2-1 Depths
    G1 I get turbo'ed and can't respond. G2 I get a Brazen blowout. G3 was a great match with a lot of counterplay and mind games. I clutched it against 3 Marrit Lage with Foundry

    Event 2:

    1-1-1 vs. 4c Aluren
    G1 I rode a quick Foundry. G2 was super long and grindy and I scooped for time when Uro gained 3 life per turn on a crowded board. G3 I had lost on time but had guaranteed lethal the following turn. This matchup feels harder than Bant Miracles.

    2-1 vs. DnT
    I fall to a few Wastelands G1 and easily cruise G2-3.

    0-2 vs. Infect
    My opponent Invigorated T2-3 with Berzerk and double Force backup both games. I had fair hands with 2 pieces of interaction but it was not enough.

    2-1 vs. Mystic Forge
    A really easy matchup in general. I only lost G1 because of Chalice@1 + Chalice@2 on T1-2.

    Event 3:

    2-0 vs. Eldrazi
    I had good Ninja openers backed with Foundry and Strix both games.

    1-2 vs. Death's Shadow
    Lost G1 to double Delver and double Wasteland pressure on my Mulligan while I drew blanks (3x Outcast). Won G2 playing Control. Lost G3 keeping a mull to 6 with a 1 lander that got Wasted. I almost brought it back after the mana screw and the double Delver, Gurmag and Shadow but the 2nd Wasteland was the nail in the coffin.

    1-2 vs. Sneak n Show
    I am usually pretty comfortable in this matchup but I lost 2 games to early SnT with double FoW backup. I did make a missplay that cost me 1 game though.

    Event 4:

    Bye

    0-2 vs. Aluren
    I got land screwed for the first few turns and eventually made riskier plays in order to make things advance and that's where I lost. G2 I never found a Ninja and flooded pretty hard.

    2-0 vs. Sneak n Show
    This time I had enough disruption to break his Combo + double counter hands.

    2-0 vs. Infect
    A couple early removal backed by counters makes this deck run out of gas quite fast.

    After all this I broke the 50 games mark with RetroNinjas for a current score of 42-8-1.

    List:

    3 Ornithopter
    3 Changeling Outcast
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Ingenious Infiltrator
    3 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
    2 Brazen Borrower

    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Drown in the Loch
    1 Daze
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    3 Retrofitter Foundry

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    //SB
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Abrade
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle


    In the end I made a few subtle changes to my manabase and SB in order accommodate some of my new SB plans.

    -I had my doubts about playing 2x Brazen mainboard but the card is simply essential against Chalice and Lage decks. It is also never bad against Delver and DnT G1 and can be useful against Combo G1 as well.
    -I changed both my SB Crypts for a Nihil Spellbomb and a Pithing Needle. Needle is mainly for Oko matchups and Nihil is a value GY-hate card that I can use lategame against Mystic Sanctuary. That way I can side out both Brazen for Needle and Nihil against Miracles.
    -I went up to 18 lands mostly because of starting hands and Wasteland matchups. I had to choose between a 3rd USea and a 2nd Island. I'm trying out a 2nd Island to be able to develop to 3 lands against Wastelands. Another reason for the additional land is that I do run out of fetchable lands in long games quite often. I cut a Daze for it given that Daze without the surprise factor is easily played around.
    -The last Daze is the flex slot. I like free counters and the psychological edge is very real. Perhaps a 4th Infiltrator would be better...
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
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