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Thread: [Primer] Dredge

  1. #401
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    I saved "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu" in pdf form. PM me if you would like it.

    Here is Richard Feldman's List from that article:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    3 Tarnished Citadel
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal therapy
    4 Careful study
    2 Dread return
    Sideboard
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Angel of Despair
    1 Ichorid
    3 Leyline of the Void
    4 Firestorm
    2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    3 Winds of Change

    Tarnished Citadel becomes Mana Confluence now. The Dread Returns can become an Ox of Agonas (most seem to be running 1x right now). The double red does make it a little harder to cast without LED though. Faithless Looting, as mentioned above, is another reason to run LED.

    Anyway, if you want the article for his reasons for the card choices, let me know.
    Big necro here, sorry for that, but I was wondering if there still exists a streamlined non-LED Dredge list? I have started piloting Manaless Dredge, it's a ton of fun but super reliant on a couple of factors. If there is a way to make the deck slightly more consistent with lands but not need LED I would be really interested to try it.
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  2. #402

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Big necro here, sorry for that, but I was wondering if there still exists a streamlined non-LED Dredge list? I have started piloting Manaless Dredge, it's a ton of fun but super reliant on a couple of factors. If there is a way to make the deck slightly more consistent with lands but not need LED I would be really interested to try it.
    Without LEDs, you should just play Jund Gaak IMO. If you can't afford non-blue duals a rainbow manabase should work if you cut ghast for something like satyr wayfinder.

  3. #403
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Well, I still want to play Dredge in some form, not Hogaak. If playing LEDless Dredge isn't viable I'll just stick to Manaless Dredge for now. The reason for adding lands would be so I could have a lot more agency in the first few turns by opening up mulligan possibilities and allowing for velocity to find sideboard cards, ie Faithless Looting > Nature's Claim etc.
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  4. #404
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Well, I still want to play Dredge in some form, not Hogaak. If playing LEDless Dredge isn't viable I'll just stick to Manaless Dredge for now. The reason for adding lands would be so I could have a lot more agency in the first few turns by opening up mulligan possibilities and allowing for velocity to find sideboard cards, ie Faithless Looting > Nature's Claim etc.
    This specific problem is one reason I've gravitated more toward manaless over the last few years. Getting god-hands with one City of Brass only to get Dazed and Wastelanded feels bad, man.

    If you've got the right duals, I've seen some older lists running fetches with Volcs and Underground Seas that might fit the bill. I think the pilots were taking a different tack in trying to reduce dead dredges by thinning, but you might try something a bit wild. Maybe you could try approx. 10 fetches, 4 Coliseums, and some number of duals (maybe one or two each of Volc and Underground Sea).

    I know that for a long time people ran Lotus Petals in the sideboard to power faster starts and give more game against Daze. You could try running a few Petals and maxing out on Breakthrough, not least because Breakthrough lets us dump our hands.

    Depending on your sideboard, you could try maindeck Sphinx of Foresight and/or Once Upon a Time to feed the Forces of your choosing and help you dig on turn 0 or 1.

    EDIT: Realizing I didn't really answer your question. I hope my food for thought helps, though.
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  5. #405
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Great response, thanks!

    I was thinking of doing something like 11 lands + 4x OUAT + Xx lotus Petals. The bad dredgers/threats go away (Shambling Shell/Prized Amalgam), the combo goes out (Spy + Oracle) and Careful Study/Breakthrough goes in. No Faithless looting because I need room for OUAT, but Study still allows for sideboard Force of Will.

    The next question becomes how many Putrid Imps go in, and whether Phantasmagorian is still worth including. Without LED we really need a way to dump our hand. Breakthrough and PImp seem like the best options.

    Long story short (too late...) it's a thought experiment. I really think Once upon a Time adds a lot to the archetype, not the least of which is adding a higher green count for potential Force of Vigor out of the sideboard.
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  6. #406
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    On Sunday I played in a local tournament. The modern event had over 60 players, quite a lot for our community. The legacy event had 14 players, less than I hoped for but a diverse group of people, some of them travelling to the city just for the event.
    The event was very well organized, the judges were great and there was even good food! All of my opponents were great, with lots of banter and noone got salty.
    I played a standard list of dredge:
    13 lands: 4x City of Brass & Cephalid Coliseum, 3x Mana Confluence & Gemstone Mine (I miss 1 Mana Confluence, City is slightly worse against Rishadan Port)
    4 LED
    1 Lotus Petal (good against Daze, slight increase in speed)
    12 Dredgers: 4 Troll & Imp & Thug
    12 Draw/Discard: 4x Faithless Looting, 3x Breakthrough & Putrid Imp, 2x Careful Study
    16 Action: 4x Ichorid & Cabal Therapy & Bridge from Below & Narcomoeba, 1x Hogaak & Ox of Agonas

    SB:
    3x Leyline of Sanctity (hits Endurance & Bojuka Bog, I don't really side it in against combo, they can answer anything most of the time if given enough time. Also I can't overboard)
    2x Leyline of the Void (against Reanimator, mirror, etc. Not against Murktide, we need a large density of action against them)
    6 answers to hate: 3x Nature's Claim / 2x Chain of Vapor / 1x Ray of Revalation: Ray is also good against slower Urza's Saga decks. Saga going to 3 is devastating if they have Cage. I never play less than 5 answers to Leyline. Against decks that only play 1 Cage I don't board answers. If they have it, so be it.
    2 DR package: 1x Dread Return, 1x Ashen Rider: In the past DR was a good add against Delver. If they have 1-2 Surgicals on Ichorid & Narcomoeba, you can really struggle creating a board state. DR -> Golgari Grave-Troll was like a 3rd threat. Nowadays we have Ox and Hogaak, so I only board in DR + Ashen Rider against Ensnaring Bridge, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, etc. and also against Storm (hitting LED or a land can delay them for 1 turn). It's debatable if Flayer of the Hatebound, Iona or Doomskar Titan are good but I never managed to cast any of them when necessary.
    1x Memory's Journey: Tech against painter (if they use Grindstone on you, you can flashback in upkeep targeting yourself, unlocking 4 Ichorids. If they used temporary mana to active Grindstone, you can shred their hand with Therapies.) and Doomsday (they can enjoy their Scry 2 from Oracle if you manage to mill Journey and keep 1 mana up).
    1x Lotus Petal: GOTTA GO FAST (Storm, decks with 2 mana hate pieces like DnT)

    SB strategy:
    Easy cuts are 1 Thug, 1-2 Imp or Study depending on the matchup, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Ichorid if you don't need to grind.

    I was happy with the sideboard, although the Lotus Petal is a bit underpowered. I can see a world where Breakthrough Nr. 4 could make the deck even faster postboard.

    14 players, 5 rounds with cut to Top 8. Wow. I have not played Legacy in quite some time and look forward to the matches.

    R1: Mono-Green Post
    G1 my opponent copies my Gemstone Mine with Vesuva. Oh my god, it's 12 Post, one of the worst matchups. 4 Crop Rotation & Reclaimer for Bog, then 4 Vesuva to copy it. I get bogged 3 times in game 1. The sideboarded games are better but he completely demolishes me.
    I board Leyline of Sanctity against Bog but never find it.
    0-1

    R2: Jesaki Stoneblade
    I don't even sideboard.
    1-1

    R3: Maverick/GW Depths
    I know what he's playing, keep an extremely fast hand and blind hit Crop Rotation. Crop Rotation is one of the best blind guesses anyway, apart from Dark Ritual and LED, but knowing that he has no counters helped.
    I board Leyline of Sanctity but never find it.
    G2 he mulls to 3: Savannah, Reclaimer, Sylvan Library. He topdecks a Savannah and concedes. He immediately regrets that as he could have fetched Tabernacle, but I have Hogaak in play + Ichorids.
    2-1

    R4: Burn
    I board 3 Nature's Claim and 2 Chain of Vapor against Leyline. He slaps 4 cards from his SB on the table so I'm sure he has them. He opens G2 with Grafdigger's Cage and I dig a bit and find Chain of Vapor eventually. He has Pyrostatic Pillar but I manage to kill him at 3 life.
    3-1

    R5: ID for Top 8
    We play some Vintage outside, now that is a great format with quick games.

    Top 8: Death and Taxes
    This matchup can be close but I have never lost against DnT in a tournament setting. I hope to be able to write this sentence in all of my future reports and prepare to go fast.
    G1 I keep a hand with LEDs, lots of draw spells but no dredgers. Risky, but he has a slow clock G1. Well he drops Spirit of the Labyrinth and I cry.
    G2&3 I vomit my hand and deck on the table turn 1.
    He had Rest in Peace and Containment Priest (I named Contamination Priest with Therapy but he was kind enough to discard it) as main hate pieces. They need to cover many bases with their sideboard but 2 mana hate with no counter backup is just not good enough 80% of the time against dredge. They basicall need you to get unlucky or have Surgical + hate. Since you can cast Hogaak & Ox through Priest it's always correct to name Rest in Peace imo btw.

    Top 4: Maverick/GW Depths again (same player)
    G1 I dredge 2/3 of my library without finding a Therapy. After turn 1 Bog I beat down with 4 Narcos and 1 Ichorid but it's not enough.
    G2 He mulls to 5 and keeps Tabernacle, Maze of Ith and 3 more lands. I keep a very fast hand and Ashen Rider Tabernacle. He concedes.
    G3 Another close game that he wins.

    Loser's Final: Painter
    Prizes for 4th & 3rd are very different so we play it out.
    G1 I keep the best hand ever:
    https://imgur.com/a/lHa5Y8l
    Unfortunately he has Veil of Summer while I have a slow start as I dredge into nothing and he manages to play T2 Karn and goes to fetch… Mycosinth Lattice. I now know he has no Tormod's Crypt and win soon after.
    G2 is one of the weirdest games I have ever played.
    I keep a hand of Land, LED, LED, LED, Faithless, Faithless on a mull to 6 and bottom Careful Study. He opens with Urza's Saga into Soulguide Lantern. Ok, time to dig. I open with Therapy for Painter's Servant and hit. Hw exiles my Therpies with Surgical but has no more lands in his hand. T2 he uses a Lotus Petal to play Goblin Engineer, tanks for a bit and finds… Grafdigger's Cage. Turn 3 Saga ticks up to 3 and he goes "Oh.". Meanwhile I dig like crazy using only draw spells but find nothing good. I find Nature's Claim and wait a bit before EOT targeting Soulguide Lantern. My board at this point is 4 LED and a land in play and 2 or 3 Lootings in my GY. He opts to gain 4 life and let's Claim resolve. This is clearly a game-losing punt but at this point it's 20:00 and we've been playing for 9.5 hours. In the craziest turn ever, I crack 4 LEDs to flashback 4 Lootings and find 2 dredgers WITH THE LAST LOOTING and pass. In the end I win a slow and grindy game. Even if he had found mana and Painter's Servant, I had Memory's Journey in the deck to mess up his combo.

    I take home an Endurance and a foil Gamble. Nice!

    PROs:
    - Very well organized!
    - Great food
    - My opponents were great
    - Dredge. Just opening a hand of 7 feels amazing. It's so colorful! Aesthetically, this is the most beautiful deck I have ever played. And I see the whole deck every game!
    - Hogaak, really well designed card. 8/8 for 0 that sacs for Therapy multiple times is peak magic design.
    - The judges were top. See also the second point in CONs.
    - One of my friends making top 8 in the modern event with Izzet Emri Combo!
    CONs:
    - I hit my foot on the tent outside
    - Foils. I had to call a judge in round 2 as a card was clearly bent and I was able to cut to it. It was a brand new Prismatic Ending oldborder foil. The judge ruled that it should be replaces with a basic until opponent can find a replacement. The judge then went and found a replacement himself and lent it to my opponent! Exceptional client service, as we say in the industry.
    - Goblin players that drop early. You know who you are! Krenko would not be pleased with such a performance.

  7. #407

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    Vincente Mahfuz (MahfuzvanGogh) has been having success with Blue Gaze Dredge. It does not use LED or rainbow lands. Instead, it has access to Brainstorm and Force of Will and Negation. He previously had success with Rainbow Gaze lists, but currently feels that Blue Gaze is stronger. It is more resilient than LED Dredge, but not as explosive. He runs the following list in paper. Online, the 1x Poxwalkers becomes the third Ichorid, since the WH40k sets have not been put on MTGO yet.

    I have been having fun (and doing pretty well) with his previous Rainbow Gaze list. I feel that it allows for a lot of choices and that I can still win through hate with careful play. I plan on trying this list at my local event at the end of this month.

    Blue Gaze

    Dredgers
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug

    Creatures
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Ichorid
    1 Poxwalkers
    1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    3 Grief
    1 Ashen Rider

    Spells
    4 Otherworldly Gaze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    2 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    1 Dread Return

    Bridge
    4 Bridge from Below

    Lands
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    2 Island
    3 Underground Sea

    Sideboard
    2 Chain of Vapor
    3 Stern Dismissal
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Leyline of the Void


    Rainbow Gaze
    (Note, sometimes 2x Firestorm made it into the maindeck.)

    Dredgers
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug

    Creatures
    4 Grief
    1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    3 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Ox of Agonas

    Spells
    3 Breakthrough
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Otherworldly Gaze

    Bridge
    4 Bridge from Below

    Lands
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    2 City of Brass
    1 Fiery Islet
    2 Gemstone Mine
    4 Mana Confluence

    Sideboard
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Dread Return
    3 Force of Will
    2 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Leyline of the Void
    4 Wispmare

  8. #408

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    MahfuzVanGogh has been tinkering with the build and has moved to a control-heavy dredge list with which he is 18-2 across his last 4 leagues.

    Blue Gaze

    Dredgers
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug

    Creatures
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Ichorid
    1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    Spells
    4 Otherworldly Gaze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze

    Bridge
    4 Bridge from Below

    Lands
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    2 Island
    3 Underground Sea

    Sideboard
    1 Kiora's Dismissal
    4 Stern Dismissal
    3 Grief
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Ashen Rider
    1 Dread Return

  9. #409

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    MahfuzVanGogh has been tinkering with what he calls Turbo Dredge and is over 70% with it across a pretty large number of games.

    Turbo Dredge

    Dredgers (11)
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Golgari Thug

    Creatures (9)
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Poxwalkers
    1 Ox of Agonas
    1 Duskana, the Rage Mother
    1 Anger

    Spells (22)
    4 Otherworldly Gaze
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Careful Study

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Dread Return

    Bridge (4)
    4 Bridge from Below

    Lands (14)
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard
    1 Kiora's Dismissal
    4 Stern Dismissal
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Ashen Rider

  10. #410

  11. #411
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    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I enjoy watching him pilot the deck and explain his lines. The only thing I disagree with is the land count. I think there are too few. Having one too many lands is a small issue, especially because Wasteland is everywhere, whereas having one too few lands is either going to induce a mulligan or lead to a game where you can get stranded. The slow dredge games generally don't get there, and you need lands to power your draw spells (with the small exception of Dread Return on Satoru).

  12. #412

    Re: [Primer] Dredge

    I think 14 lands is pretty close to correct, though I sometimes play with 15. I don't think having more than 15 lands improves the deck.

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