Good morning everyone! I apologize for my low level English, I will try to make a small report regarding my experience at the main event legacy of the eternal weekend.
First of all I want to make a premise, the deck itself is really fun and as you will all have noticed looking at the enormous diversity between published lists (I really thank Pettdan for the archiving work and for keeping this discussion more active as possible) it allows you to diversify a lot of strategy based on your playing style and the metagame you predict.
There is no right or wrong list, rather there is the best list to use in a tournament with a certain metagame.
My choice was certainly wrong because it was made following my tastes, since in a historical moment in which the presence of combo decks (our most favorable match ups) is at an all-time low and the prevalence of tempo decks with bowmasters destroying us it literally, means that we should probably follow a different path for this moment.
Finally my time for playing is always few so my mistakes had a significant influence on the final result.
All this to say that there is always room for improvement so you should never give up 😉
So let's get to the tournament:
R1 Mono Black (with Karn, Dauthi, Opposition agent and Damnation)
Really unfavorable match up, I was advantaged by the fact that my opponent didn't know the deck so in G1 after a long waste of resources by both Griselbrand with 2 mothers managed to bring home the victory and in G2 it ended due to of time in a situation of substantial balance (if my opponent had made fewer mistakes he would certainly have won both games): 1-0
1-0
R2 Jund
Perhaps the worst match up existing for us (between lightning, waste, decay, trophy, Liliana, punishing fire, seize) Never really been in the game: 0-2
1-1
R3 4c control beans
G1 really lasts a long time but by dint of having an advantage with beans I run out of resources and manages to remove meddling which calls terminus and shortly thereafter it ends
G2 a magus of the moon at the right time leaves him with only mountains and wins alone
G3 the time is practically over and it ends in a draw, I decide to give it to him because he probably would have won...: 1-2
1-2
R4 Naya Depths
G1 I manage to block it with peacekeeper long enough to assemble the divining with + thassa's oracle combo.
G2 a fast 20/20 that I have no answer to in my hand kills me
G3 I want to try to win it so with mother active and a bird on the field considered her sejiri in the cemetery they make me feel calm but not knowing that she plays two I die since I had removed Vendilion from the main deck the night before, in addition to the error this game I could have played it much better, my fault: 1-2
1-3
R5 UB Scam
In G1 he wins very quickly with grief and trolls G2 I manage to revive a Griselbrand that he will have no way to remove in a short time G3 as in G1: 1-2
1-4
R6 Merfolks
It's been a long time since I played against them but it's always been a fairly favorable match up, but I played both games backwards: 0-2
1-5
Something went off in me, having finished very early I take some time to rest for a moment.
R7 Reanimator
The break did me good, I play 3 good games, in G1 I start very strong and I have no way to do anything, in the remaining 2 games I manage to get the better of it quite easily: 2-1
2-5
R8 Eldrazi
G1 starts with ancient tomb and chalice at 1, my hand with brainstorm and 2 hierarch (drawing bird immediately after) can really do little and I concede
G2 with kigh on autumn at T2 I slow him down and manage to reanimate Griselbrand in a short time
G3 fow protects me from chalice and a fast natural order for progenitus Wins in 2 turns: 2-1
3-5
R9 infect
G1 starts with earth and glistener elf, in turn 2 invigorated and berserk protected by daze on my fow they kill me (I could have block but I hoped to have at least one more turn)
G2 here I really lost because my mistakes, I manage to have an active fauna but wanting to try to win I don't go for peacekeeper and this costs me the game, he will close the next turn: 0-2
3-6
At this point I was really too tired to continue, 9 rounds with Most are just too many...
the list I played can be seen from the link published by Pettdan
I add some considerations that can be a starting point for discussion:
- Vial: I like them a lot but I'm still not convinced that they are suitable for the deck thus composed, for example post side I want to quickly get 4 mana for Natural Order or Minsc & Boo, it would be better to replace them are better mana dorks and/or GSZ
- Volrath's shapeshifter: I have NEVER transformed it into phage to close, it has occasionally useful to become atraxa/griselbrand for short periods of time, 2 I think are too many assuming I don't cut it completely...
- I would like an advantage engine with fauna and Squee would be perfect but it is not blue (fow requires at least 17/18 blue cards and we are at the limit) and it would mean adding another suboptimal without having active fauna in play
I hope it is useful to all of you and that perhaps it can lead to some food for thought 🙂
Most at any cost
Thanks for the report, Shaden. Since you want Squee and care about the blue count, would you consider Master of Death (https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/205/master-of-death)?
Thanks for the report, Shaden! Very nice to read and share your experience! About the list, I wouldn't dare bringing a combo based on x/1s to a big tournament (with Bowmasters in the format), like for example Volrath's Shapeshifter, but the card has a lot of potential so I was extra curious to see how it went.
Anyway, I'm considering what to try now, here are couple of options. I recently got (on MTGO) a Fiend Artisan and Cradle, Mox Diamonds and Fury and Grief are cheap on MTGO, two Bowmasters, so we'll see if I get around to playing a little. I actually spend my evening time trying to learn Python, Django (web development framework) and Javascrip now, also dipping into machine learning, so we'll see how that goes.
Potential directions to test:
- GSZ, Titania, Safekeeper, KotR, Cradle. Seems like this direction could go Abzan with Wastelands.
- Fury, Lagrella, Omnath, maybe Fable. This is the direction I was taking earlier this year, before Fury went to 50 tix. (edit: and Forth Eorlingas, Minsc & Boo)
- Flame of Anor, Snapcaster Mage. These fit with the above version, but could also be run in a more dedicated list with many instants and Snapcasters.
- Food Chain, Grief, Bowmasters OR Questing Druid. I was trying this around January this year, iirc. Seemed nice.
- Aluren. It's always been a smooth inclusion for a combo element, but now with Bowmasters there's a wincon that's very easy to include.
- Leovold, Delighthed Halfling, Ertai, maybe Cavern.
- Beanstalk MOST.
- Enchantment MOST with perhaps Beanstalk, certainly with Abundant Growth and Setessan champion, Fable. This is more likely to be a Nic Fit deck. Nice with Recurring Nightmare too.
- Humans: Talia's Lieutenant, Greymond (a.k.a. Rich). Lets you run Caverns which can be pretty good.
Late additions (240120):
- Artifact theme with potential inclusions: Goblin Welder, Goblin Engineer, Breya (4-mana Breya), Strix, Emry, Tameshi, Saga, Painter+Grindstone, Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Dragon Engine
- Natural Order, Atraxa, GSZ+Arbor, Allosaurus Shepherd. Teferi, Kutzil?
- Scryb Ranger+Mother of Runes
- Abzan-build with Wasteland, Meren, Grief+Troll?+Reanimate, Solitude, Canonist (Thalia or Spirit of the Labyrinth might be better unless for Bowmasters)
- I always think about how I can build an updated version with Shaman of the Great Hunt, a favourite card that has been very good in the past. It still looks pretty good to me.
- I'd like to build a dedicated Recurring Nightmare version. It's very similar to Ephemerate+Witness, which I already play, but it'll take a different direction I believe. Will be thinking of using Grief, Troll, Ertai, Solitude, Bowmasters, Witness (keep thinking).
- I want to play a flash version.
- Bounce+discard version, using discard for removal. Using: Brazen Borrower, Venser, Barrin, Teferi, with Grief. Recoil? Thoughtseize? Liliana otv?
Last edited by pettdan; 01-20-2024 at 04:49 PM.
16 X/1s. Ouch.Originally Posted by pettdan
According to MTGGoldfish, 4 of the top 8 decks have 4x Bowmasters. OP could have been punished even more if not playing in the losing bracket.
How would you modify the 1-mana slot to be more resilient in this meta?
Would you play Giver of Runes instead of Mother? Ramp like Utopia Sprawl instead of Birds? Play Grief scam and Bowmasters yourself? Not play combos that need X/1s?
Edit: Have you ever considered playing Hushbringer + Phyrexian Dreadnought? Is that compatible with any Vial MOST build? Hushbringer hates on Bowmasters, Initiative, Grief, Thassa combos, Yorion control.... most of the format. It does limit your own build options though. You could back it up with other non-ETB hatebears like Meddling Mage, Thalia, Teeg, Collector Ouphe...
Last edited by FTW; 12-04-2023 at 09:53 PM.
Playing your own Bowmasters seems like a valid approach, I've seen comments from Esper Vial that they are usually better at leveraging Bowmasters than other decks. I typically run Abundant Growth as a CMC 1-slot, and I'm curious if it's bad against Bowmasters. Depending on how bad it is, I'm considering replacing (edit: a few) copies with Delighted Halfling, though it pushes you into a legends and planeswalkers build.
If I was playing a creature combo like with Volrath's Shapeshifter, I might be testing a mix of Mother and Giver, with more weight on mother.
Edit: adding to that reply, after reading your question another time, yes I also would consider playing Scam. I was playing 2 Grief and 2 Animate Dead in testing around January-February, iirc, this year, and it felt pretty good, that was before the Scam trend had started, at least I wasn't aware, so it was a small package back then (Jeff Lin was trying something like that in Esper Vial and it seemed nice so I also wanted to try it)
Yes I've been thinking about Hushbringer and Dreadnought in an Abzan build, since there's a bunch of relevant creatures without etbs there, kind of pushes you into a Maverick style build but I'd keep vials. Seems like it could be worth trying again now. I'm also considering, and more recently too, a similar build with Death's Shadow instead of Dreadnought. Also Varolz, the Scar-Striped is great with both of them.
Edit: btw, Vickas used to experiment with Lazav and Dreadnought, you can find his lists linked in the primer, here's the latest one: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1081213
Last edited by pettdan; 12-07-2023 at 04:09 PM.
I started testing a list on mtgo recently, just a match or two per day. I've got all the cards I could wish for now on MTGO and I opened a bunch of tresure chests for good value play points. If you buy and open treasure chests, especially if you time it right you get a good discount on play points, and this lets you enter tournaments and leagues for a lower cost. I think I got about 50% discount on these play points.
Here's what I'm testing in order to have a fair chance to beat Beanstalk decks. I have no idea of whether it will be effective or not.
2 Loran
2 Karakas (bounce Loran, destroy another Beanstalk or Binding)
1 Leovold
2 Hullbreacher
2 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Gaddock Teeg (considering Lavinia instead)
1 Initative creature since it was claimed to be good against Beanstalk decks
I could see also playing a copy of Witherbloom Command.
That's a fair amount of card draw disruption, and I figured it will be relevant in many other matchups too. I think in order to step it up, I could drop some white, move more into BUG and play more Leovolds. But I think the list loses too much from that, Recruiter and Solitude. Otoh, it could enable playing more Griefs so it's a consideration.
Another thing I was considering was to make the deck building, and deck evaluation, more structured by trying to systematically evaluate a couple of concepts that I'm building a deck on. We already do this when we build decks, in an unstructured process, but when your deck is very flexible it might be worthwile expressing these things for more easy evaluation of deck buildling direction and decisions. These are the decisions of direction I was thinking of:
List of evaluation criteria when evaluating how a (Vial/MOST) deck operates.
A. Synergy. Does the deck build on specific synergies? We usually play a bunch of synergies, but this is the glue that holds a deck together and it's worth considering which way we decided to take a specific build. There is a section of synergies in the primer but it could be for example artifacts (Strix, Welder), Equipment (Stoneforge, equipment), Wizards, Humans, ETB-effects (Strix, Coatl, Loran, bounce or flicker effects), or graveyard synergies (Meren, Samwise, Witness+Ephemerate).
B. Tutors. This is in my opinion what defines MOST/X-color Vial, the creature tutors set the deck building criteria (so maybe it should be evaluated first, as A).
C. Removal. Nothing special here, must always consider removal. For MOST, it's usually a mix of spells and creatures.
D. Powerful finisher. This is the point I wanted to emphasize when making this list. This is what I posted about when I posted about different directions to test. So in practice, this should perhaps be first in the list. It doesn't define the deck or how it operates, but it does define how you build it, which colors, which creatures tutors you pick etc.
E. Answers to other decks and their finishers. Silver-bullets.
For application during deck building, perhaps the order is another. Deck building needs to settle some decisions first that influence the overall structure of the deck.
A. Powerful finisher. If there's a well positioned finisher you can build your deck on, then you go into those colors and let this direct the other choices you make.
B. Answers to other decks and their finishers, silver-bullets. If a deck is popular, and you have a terrific answer to it that you can tutor up, that's a great strategic opportunity that you want to grasp/explore/exploit.
C. Tutors. Based on your threats and silverbullets, pick tutors that help you find them.
D. Synergies. The rest of the deck.
E. Removal. Got to have it.
I like this meta-discussion around deckbuilding.
Although you are the MOST expert and I am just a general Legacy player, I would argue that Answers should be A and Finishers should be B or C (maybe below Tutors).
MOST seems to be fundamentally a creature toolbox deck. Therefore, the best thing you could/should do is evaluate the current meta DTBs and pick the best tools to answer those decks. You have the advantage of being the most customizable creature toolbox, so why not play all the best answers? Then pick the right tutor package to find them.
You can find playable finishers in any color combo or synergy combo. Finishers could be a later thought. In Legacy, it seems more important that you're beating what the top decks do and weaving around common meta problems, instead of just building in a silo around some wincon (how the newer formats work).
I agree, and I think that's actually what I tend to do. Because MOST is more of a reactionary deck than a proactive deck. Having access to tutors does enable a more reactive game plan, perhaps, while focusing on threats tends to lead to streamlining a deck to most efficiently find and use those threats. I think I was thinking of the (relatively rare) situation that a specific threat seems very well-positioned and that could then be a first consideration in deck construction. I may change the order of those two or three.
It's a shame you removed your list of top tier decks, I was going to use it.
I wanted to keep the comment readable & focused on the main idea. I'll repost it.
In the current meta, strategies to build around:
Bowmasters (avoid too many X/1s and value "draw" effects, play your own Bowmasters)
Beans (play disenchant bears, play draw hate like Bowmasters, Leovold, Hullbreacher)
Initiative (play enough bodies to take back Initiative, especially with evasion... this one might be easy because they annihilate their own hand for tempo while you play 30ish creatures)
Scam (play GY hate, play enough redundancy that you outlast them if they keep 2-for-1 ing themselves)
Chalice/Moon (play disenchant bears, diversify mana & cmcs, Vial seems good vs both)
Saga artifact decks (play mass artifact hate in the 75, not only Rec Sage effects)
Between Scam, Beans, Reanimator, and Initiative there are a lot of tier 1 decks cheating on curve playing high CMC effects early, so cards like Lavinia and Containment Priest seem good in the 75.
Edit: If black is a secondary color (eg GBwu for Bowmasters), you could consider playing the 1BBB tutor. It puts anything 1-4 cmc directly into play! i.e. most of your deck. They have to decide to counter without any idea what you could be getting. You should have enough fodder for the Bargain cost.
I see, thank you!
So, this is pretty much how I built my current deck, and how I usually go about it, but it could do with working on this by writing it out and especially I'd like to find out if there are any really good answers, answers that are so good that they merit taking the deck in a certain direction just to be able to include them. Which I may not be able to do here, but at least it's a start. Well, there is Meltdown which I feel has the potential to be such a card. And also, I didn't include it here, but Test of Talents to get with Spellseeker is another such high potential card, I think.
Anyway, I went through this commenting on my recent build, but also trying to think wider.
- WUBG: Here I run 4 StPs, 2 Solitudes, 2 Bowmasters, 1 Plague Engineer (briefly had a second in the sideboard) and then Spellseeker to find more of them through Recruiter. Also Lagrella temporarily exiles Bowmasters or kills the token.
- x/1s and cantrips: I cut down from 6-7 Coatls/Stridges to 3, and considering if Abundant Growth may be problematic. Not sure where I should end up on Coatls/Stridges, hopefully testing will tell. Could perhaps run more of these since they tend to draw into the answers even if they die on etb against Bowmasters.
- with red splash, I think Fury is a pretty good additional answer. And Granger Guildmage, perhaps, probably not.
- GWB: could try a GWB build since it doesn't use cantrips. I just never get around to playing a list of this, it's difficult to build.
- other potential answers: it seems to me like Jitte would be a good way to machine gun down any opposing Bowmasters.
- other cards to avoid: unfortunately, I'm very low on Mother of Runes, Birds of Paradise, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Scryb Ranger with Bowmasters one of the most popular creatures to run. But Plague Engineer was having a similar effect prior to that, and Fury also has i suppose.
Yeah, discussed this a few posts up, seems like a decent approach. Also may try to jam my own Beanstalks later, we'll see. You can run Gaddock to stop Beanstalk control, while relying on Fury, Solitude, Titania to trigger it yourself (and GSZ + FoW that get stuck behind Gaddock). Perhaps, maybe not.
- haste: I should try to fit a haste beater like Questing Beast. Kaldra Compleat would also do.
- initative: I run an initative creature myself, to recruiter for, but I could see adding a green one to occasionally GSZ for.
- evasion: Coatl seems great here, Kaldra Compleat might also be great.
- other potential answers: there was a sideboardable BB spell, iirc, that exiles an attacker and creates a copy until eot which results in gaining the initiative. I forget it's name.
I think it's going to be very easy to be run over here so a haste attacker might be important. But also, I'm leaning towards a fairly removal-heavy deck, where recruiters and Spellseeker find more removal, and then if you can keep the board clear, any attacker will be able to steal the initiative. But that's going to be hard to achieve.
- cheap removal: I feel like StP and Solitude are quite important here, offering good answers to cantrip into (if they discarded the first one).
- againsts discard: Eternal Witness can bring back any answer to a reanimated threat that was discarded.
- graveyard interaction: not sure if I should board into Leylines but it's an option. And I have maindeck Endurance. Sometimes I run a Cling to Dust or Nihil Spellbomb to increase t1 interaction, but they'll probably have plenty of discard, I expect, to clear the path.
- stealing threats: Gilded Drake could help against for example an early reanimated Troll. Charming Prince works out if they discarded and reanimated your creatures.
- bouncing reanimated spells: Venser, Barrin and Teferi are all pretty great at bouncing reanimated creatures. I didn't run much of these now, but having one copy to recruiter for is very good. Barrin offers a card advantage engine (coupled with Karakas), while Venser offers a potential soft-lock (coupled with Karakas), not sure which I prefer. Probably Barrin due to the 3 cmc.
In this matchup I think a mix of removal and Coatl/Strix is the most easy inclusion, and probably a bouncer to recruiter for, because reanimation tends to be answered by early discard.
I don't know how updated lists look now, but I heard a little discussion (on, I believe it was, Everyday Eternal). But yes, Vials are probably good, there's disenchant bears to tutor for, FoW/FoN to stop early lock-pieces and then plenty of removal to hopefully establish a leading board presence but it will be difficult to find the right mix of interaction. The card-drawing hate I'm running for Beanstalk decks will be dead though.
- mana-fixing: Vial and Abundant Growth provide some resilience against Moon effects.
- artifact/enchantment removal: currently preboarded with double Loran, with potential for Karakas-bouncing. I currently run a Force of Vigor in the sideboard, but it could turn into Kataki which would be worse for this matchup.
- other sideboard options: Blue Elemental Blasts are pretty good here, I only play one now but can recruiter for it. May be worth playing a second, testing will show.
Again, double Loran with Karakas-bouncing is a potentially very good answer here. Also Lagrella can kill of tokens. Force of Vigor in the sideboard is also relevant, but I would like to run some stronger silverbullet against these decks.
- WURG: Spellseeker into Meltdown from the sideboard is the most attractive solution to me, I think.
Yeah, Lavinia and Similarly Gaddock are quite potent. I think I need to test both to see which I like better. I expect that when playing against Beanstalk decks, the game will last until they have 6 lands and then they'll just ignore Lavinia. Similarly, storm decks can hit 4 lands in play to ignore Lavinia, while Gaddock must be answered.
It's an interesting consideration, I should probably add it to the primer. I think few versions will be able to hit BBB though, but a black-centered version could. Also, if running Scryb Ranger and Birds of Paradise, it's possible to get that mana, but unreliably still. It would allow tutoring for Minsc & Boo, for example.
I'll probably be back to update this because there's a lot to consider here.
Come to think of it, the double Loran I run now (I mentioned a couple of times) are actually highly synergetic with the card-drawing hatebears, letting you turn Loran's symmetric card draw into anti-symmetric, card draw for yourself only, or to get extra triggers from Bowmasters.
Sounds like you've thought out a lot of answers.
Loran bounce and Force of Vigor are a bit slow at answering the go-wide artifact decks like Karn Forge or 8cast. You could Spellseeker for Meltdown, but something like Collector Ouphe or Kataki, War's Wage might be nice to have (maybe SB) on top of the double Loran.
You make a good point for why Gaddock Teeg is a more permanent answer than Lavinia, especially with a slow clock and no LD. Then you just need to build around Teeg: no GSZ, board out FoW in some matches.
Lavinia is still good at slowing down those decks to your fair pace. It also trumps some random combos like Rhinos and Mississippi River.
I've been thinking about the viability of a version with 4 Hushbringer + some number of Phyrexian Dreadnought, since Hushbringer hates on a lot of the meta.
You can still play a lot of non-ETB hatebears (Meddling Mage, Lavinia, Teeg, Outland Liberator, Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze, Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Sanctum Prelate, Leovold, Trygon Predator, Hullbreacher, Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, Grist, Sheoldred, Meren, Glen Elendra, Shalai..).
With Dreadnought the challenge is also finding ways to make the combo pieces not dead when you don't have them. Aether Vial lets you combo Dreadnought + Dreadnought, a way to go off without Hushbringer. Pitch tutors like Fauna Shaman are great at smoothing variance, either finding the 2nd piece or pitching a useless piece for something needed. Giver of Runes could protect the creature combo & creature tutors while not dying to X/1 hate. Dreadnought is also inherently great at enabling mechanics like Delirium and Morbid/Descend (1-mana suicidal artifact creature). Traverse the Ulvenwald gets easier to use. Maybe you play Delighted Halfling as the mana dork: it dodges Bowmasters, casts Dreadnought, and fixes for the legendary hatebears. However it does not activate Fauna Shaman or cast Traverse, so it has limitations. Varolz would give beatdown value from Dreadnoughts in graveyard.
The Hushbringer list needs a draft before I can say much more about it, I think, at least right now. But I may come back to that.
I usually play Ouphe but cut it for Force of Vigor the other day. Not sure why now, hmm. Probably will change it back. Especially since the ring is answered by Ouphe. Hmm, it may be that I changed ouphe into Gaddock, since they sometimes play a similar role (well against Storm, they sometimes do overlap a bit, vs Turbo Forge they do).
Here's a list posted in the Esper Vial discord recently. It's pretty close to what I have been trying, with still a new configuration and especially 4 Reanimate, 4 Troll. Adding it to the primer.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6043231#online
I've been toying around with a Hushbringer brew. The rough shell is there but it hasn't quite come together.
Current draft: MOST Dreadbringer
//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial
//Creatures: 30
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Delighted Halfling
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
//Spells: 9
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
//Lands: 17
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Hullbreacher
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
Dreadnought + Hushbringer = 12/12
Vial + Dreadnought + Dreadnought = 12/12
Lazav + Dreadnought = 12/12
Varolz + Dreadnought = +12/+12 to any creature
Solo Dreadnought = +2 Delirium (to turn on Traverse sooner)
Solo Hushbringer hates on Initiative, Scam, Bowmasters, Thassa's Oracle, Goblins, Yorion decks (Beans, 5c Zenith, D&T) etc.
Fauna Shaman can either assemble the combos or pitch a dead piece to find something useful, reducing variance. Pitching Dreadnought is useful later for Lazav, Varolz, and Delirium.
With only Fauna Shaman + Dreadnought (no other creatures in hand), you can discard Dreadnought to get Lazav and have a 12/12 that cost only 1 card (not 2-for-1).
Legolas's Quick Reflexes combos with Fauna Shaman for a 2nd activation & Shocks something. It also protects Dreadnought and can be used precombat as "Can't be removed this turn. When this attacks, deal infiniteen damage to opponent's best creature". It does the same with Lazav-Nought or Varolz-scavenged Nought. Very powerful trick with 12/12s.
To avoid nonbos the deck is on non-ETB hatebears. There are still a lot of playable ones out there. Most effects are 1-sided. Most are self-explanatory. Ooze vs grave decks and as a big beater late. Thalia slows down spell-based decks. Teeg disrupts many combo & control decks. Grist kills things. Leovold vs Beans and other draw-heavy fair blue decks. Hullbreacher for a 2nd effect. Prelate vs spell-based decks. Ouphe vs artifacts. Containment Priest vs the usual creature cheating suspects. Faerie as a faster answer vs Reanimator and Oops.
Meddling Mage can be either offensive or defensive. Without FoW, it's there to provide some combo hate in game 1. Against fair decks it can be set to opponent's best answer for Dreadnought.
Lazav & Varolz combo with Dreadnought but also have utility with other creatures. Fauna Shaman can Entomb specific creatures to graveyard. Faerie Macabre puts itself in the grave and then can scavenge onto something.
Jegantha is free to include in game 1. Extra threat. Big body. Creature to discard to Fauna Shaman from an empty hand.
Mangara is outdated tech, but Loran, Knight of Autumn, Palace Jailer, and Solitude don't work with Hushbringer. You can still do the EOT Vial trick & bounce with Karakas.
Overall there's a bunch of tech. It has a lot of ways to deal with Bowmasters, Initiative, and Monarch. Hushbringer itself hates on a lot of Tier 1 strategies. But I don't know if this is cohesive enough. Does it need more tutors? More actual threats? More answers? Is the mana stable enough to support this many colors?
Edit: Perhaps Eladamri's Call is more reliable than Traverse. Traverse makes you lose to so much grave hate (e.g. Surgical or Soul-Guide on 1 card to remove Delirium).
Considering -3 Traverse, +2 Eladamri's Call +1 GSZ
Last edited by FTW; 01-05-2024 at 11:23 AM.
I haven't looked through that properly yet but it's nice to see a list, thanks FTW! I did see that there was no Mother, Giver or Safekeeper though. I think if you go along any path where you need to 1-for-2 to get a Dreadnought to stay in play, then you kind of need to be able to protect it. There are 3 Meddling Mages though, and you can name removal so they seem pretty valuable for that purpose and for locking down combo otherwise. And there's Legolas's Quick Reflexes so, well, seems worth testing.
I'll read more cosely soon!
Comments on the list, update:
- Traverse seems very difficult to get delirium for. There seemed to be few instants and sorceries. I think it probably needs Bauble or Strix or some other permanent type that tends to leave play.
- I usually like Once Upon a Time, so I'd probably play that over Traverse. But it's not so fun to signal the combo.
- Two basics seems like it's a little low, in case you want to be able to use Traverses that haven't been activated with delirium yet.
- One potential threat here is that Uro from an opponent just stays in play, it doesn't die, and when it starts attacking it's going to be difficult, perhaps. So you may want even more than the 4 StPs to answer it. Karakas does actually answer it well with Hushbringer in play, they don't get extra draws from it. Maybe play double Karakas. I usually do anyway.
- I'd probably try to fit 4 Abundant Growth and a sb Yorion, because that guaranteed late-game card advantage finisher is pretty useful. Even with Hushbringer potentially stopping the flickering of Growths.
- You have very little card advantage, I wonder if there's something that could be added. Sylvan Library isn't great against Bowmasters, but it is a consideration. I would't mind seeing 2 Leovolds, it tends to provide some card advantage.
- Your deck doesn't seem particularly mana-hungry, I wonder if Birds of Paradise are needed. But they do discard well to Fauna Shaman when they aren't needed, so it's ok. But I'd consider going for 1 Dryad Arbor and 3 GSZ instead.
- I don't usually play a single Thalia, and if I play Thalia I usually make sure to play Wasteland also. I'd consider if you can add Wasteland.
- A single Ethersworn Canonist is usually more impactful than a single Thalia, I think. Also, it's Bowmaster-proof.
Well, those are some initial thoughts on the list, something to consider.
Like you say, Hushbringer hating on several decks is pretty sweet. It's difficult to see that it's worth giving up etb-effects for, but if you can find card advantage from non-creatures that might weigh up for the lost value. Not sure what that would be, though.
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Anyway, this example of Swift Reconfiguration combo was posted in the Maverick discord, thought I'd share it here also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhZ3EfOuYgk
Last edited by pettdan; 01-06-2024 at 01:47 PM.
Thanks for the detailed comments!
Good points. Canonist seems better. Easy swap.
I originally had 3 Giver of Runes but replaced them with 2 Legolas + 1 Halfling. Legolas seemed very strong with Fauna Shaman and 12/12s. Maybe the deck still needs Giver too.
I picked Giver over the others because it survives Bowmasters. The colorless protection is also useful against many format answers (Aether Spellbomb, Walking Ballista, large constructs). Thoughts?
Agreed. I commented on it at the bottom. You've convinced me to drop Traverse.
Btw Bauble is not needed. Dreadnought reads "1: put artifact & creature in the GY". It IS the permanent type that leaves play, without needing a support card like Bauble. That was the original motivation for Traverse. If you don't have a Dreadnought combo already, Dreadnought has a secondary mode of giving Delirium to tutor some other important card (or find Lazav to be 12/12). Land is easy, so you only need 1 more type between instant, sorcery, planeswalker (Grist), or enchantment (SB). That seemed feasible. But it's very easily disrupted by any interaction, so it's not reliable.
Maybe -3 Traverse -1 Birds +2 Eladamri's Call +2 Green Sun's Zenith?
Normally I'd use OUAT but it seems less consistent at assembling combos or finding toolbox creatures. Eladamri's Call first? Maybe both OUAT and Eladamri's Call?I usually like Once Upon a Time, so I'd probably play that over Traverse. But it's not so fun to signal the combo.
Opponent using Hushbringer to make Uro is a risk. At least they lose a draw. My thinking was that with 4 Dreadnought 4 Swords 1 Karakas you have more ways to come out ahead than they have ways to make Uro. If you have Dreadnought and they have Uro, they can't attack into a 12/12 (miss the draw trigger), you trample over Uro, and precombat Legolas will kill Uro. So overall Hushbringer should help more than hurt. Thoughts?One potential threat here is that Uro from an opponent just stays in play, it doesn't die, and when it starts attacking it's going to be difficult, perhaps. So you may want even more than the 4 StPs to answer it. Karakas does actually answer it well with Hushbringer in play, they don't get extra draws from it. Maybe play double Karakas. I usually do anyway.
That is the core premise of the deck. If Hushbringer favors opponent more than it favors you, then there's little reason to play Hushbringer + Dreadnought combo instead of other cards in the same shell. The primary goal is to benefit from Hushbringer assymetrically: have it hate on opponent more than it helps them, run hatebears and engines that are immune to it, and get 1-mana 12/12s.
Birds is fixing more than ramp. Otherwise it would be 4 Halfling or 4 Hierarch, but they can't fix for everything.Your deck doesn't seem particularly mana-hungry, I wonder if Birds of Paradise are needed. But they do discard well to Fauna Shaman when they aren't needed, so it's ok. But I'd consider going for 1 Dryad Arbor and 3 GSZ instead.
Dryad Arbor was excluded on purpose. The goal was to avoid Bowmasters, especially on land. Only 5 X/1s. Birds also dies to Bowmasters, but at least it fixes colors to compensate for the risk. The list seems like it needs fixing more than ramp. Is there enough fixing without Birds? Thoughts?
Abundant Growth is one option, like you said. It doesn't discard to Fauna Shaman and wants Yorion/flicker effects (nonbo with Hushbringer). It also walks into flash Orcish Bowmasters -> kill your 2/2. Suddenly a lot more creatures are vulnerable to Bowmasters. Not sure Abundant Growth is the best answer. It didn't feel right for what the rest of the build is trying to accomplish.
Yes, this is a big problem. To avoid nonbos I have no ETB draws or ETB value. Avoiding keyword "draw" also dodges Bowmasters. But then there's no card advantage either. The deck needs some other source. Ideally in tutorable creature form.You have very little card advantage, I wonder if there's something that could be added. Sylvan Library isn't great against Bowmasters, but it is a consideration. I would't mind seeing 2 Leovolds, it tends to provide some card advantage.
I considered Meren, but Hushbringer stops Meren from gaining experience counters.
Maybe Edric, Spymaster of Trest? Tireless Tracker?
Or something else that gets cards without the "draw" word? Lead the Stampede?
Wrenn and Realmbreaker?
Questing Druid?
Duskwatch Recruiter?
Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder?
Caparocti Sunborn?
Dragonlord Ojutai?
Ellie and Alan, Paleontologists?
Some of these are interesting.
That's the core question of the deck. Is Hushbringer good enough to give up ETB effects and 8 slots? Otherwise, even with the most optimized shell, you could just cut Hushbringer and Dreadnought, run a more compact wincon, and have more flex slots and all the best ETB effects.Like you say, Hushbringer hating on several decks is pretty sweet. It's difficult to see that it's worth giving up etb-effects for, but if you can find card advantage from non-creatures that might weigh up for the lost value. Not sure what that would be, though.
Edited deck:
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial
//Creatures: 30
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Giver of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
//Spells: 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
2 Eladamri's Call
2 Green Sun's Zenith
//Lands: 17
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Hullbreacher
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper
For now Uro is the card engine. It's GSZable. It can work with Hushbringer or without it. Lazav can attack as Uro too.
Last edited by FTW; 01-07-2024 at 01:23 AM.
Just some initial comments here. I'll read again later.
You're very welcome, of course!
I think Meren is a quite good card advantage engine (it used to be very good, felt like the most game-winning card in the deck, when I played in paper before the pandemic, but I'm not sure if it still could be), getting experience counters is just a bonus. I think it's worth testing, but it's always difficult to find the space.
I think Eladamri's Call is too expensive, paying 2 mana to find a creature is probably too much. Could be wrong though, it's certainly ok to test it. But usually, paying G for GSZ used to be expensive. I think Fiend Artisan may be better. It overlaps well with Fauna Shaman (in the sense that they both require an answer next turn or you get a great advantage, so they both "tax" opponent's removal), and if you want to tutor for Dreadnought or Hushbringer, they are only 1-2 mana so quite decent to use Artisan for.
Btw, I think OUAT is really good (when you can find threats and answers, and there's a high density of hits) and something to probably include, that t1 find a land is great, and instant speed searching at EOT is also great, but you kind of need some instants so you can leave mana open when you pass the turn and have a couple of options.
Another thing I considered was that the blue hot creature, too expensive on MTGO, with built in Stifle might be good here. But iirc it would remove the trample from dreadnought. Tishana's Tidebinder, I think.
Edit: Since you want non-creature card-advantage, probably, it may be good to look for planeswalkers that synergize well with the deck. Teferi TR is an obvious one, it lets you put together any combo undisturbed. I was also thinking of Minsc and Boo, because it's a generally great threat, but also sacrificing a Dreadnought to deal lots of damage and draw lots of cards is going to be good. And planeswalkers make mana dork translate better into powerful threats (because you can't answer mana dork and planeswalker with the same sweeper, ramping into a creature that is answered by a Terminus is such a bad moment).
Last edited by pettdan; 01-07-2024 at 04:58 PM.
Fiend Artisan is a good idea. It also works well with Legolas and as an alternate wincon. It also provides value for redundant Hushbringers or hatebears on board, converting them into more useful cards.
I added Meren too. You make a good point that Meren is still strong without the experience counters. Sometimes Hushbringer won't be out and you can get counters! With even 1 counter, Meren replays end of turn Dreadnought!
Meren also works with the graveyard sub-theme (Lazav, Varolz, Fiend Artisan, Grist mill) better than Uro does. It's a good target for Fiend Artisan, getting back the creature you sacrificed at end of turn.
Updated list:
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
//Artifacts: 4
4 Aether Vial
//Creatures: 27
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Giver of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Fiend Artisan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Likeness Looter
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
//Spells: 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Once Upon A Time
//Lands: 18
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
//Sideboard: 14
2 Deafening Silence
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Peacekeeper
Edit: Maybe Likeness Looter is better than Lazav here. It flies and provides some digging, though it's weaker to Bowmaster.
Varolz scavenging Dreadnought onto Hushbringer to make a 13/14 flying lifelink is underrated tech that can get you back in a game where regular Dreadnought gets raced/blocked.
Edit2: Tested a few games. The mana is very weak and the variance is very high. Cleaned up the mana, mostly cutting blue and adding OUAT.
Likeness Looter replaces Lazav for superior card selection.
Last edited by FTW; 01-08-2024 at 12:14 AM.
I didn't get as far as commenting on Uro yet, but I really liked it in the deck because it's a great threat, even without Hushbringer synergy. However, I also think the manabase doesn't support it. 2 Tropical Islands isn't enough, even with BoP support. Well, testing may tell otherwise.
My first thoughts are that Lazav is better, because it survives Bowmaster and it also can be protected with your Karakas. I think next thing to consider is how to deal with opposing Karakas to clear the way for Lazav. At 1 copy it's not that important, probably. And even if Lazav is bounced, that's not that bad. But Wasteland seems like it might be good for that purpose, but also as a way to mess with opponent. Something to consider later in testing, perhaps.
OuaT is great, helping set up initial mana, and also Abundant Growth makes for great manabases. But we already discussed that. Another way to improve your mana base is to cut BoP for Prismatic Vista. BoP accellerates, but often having a reliable manabase is more valuable. Just something tot consider. You can always cut BoPs one by one for lands.
I tested it more. It's just not good. Too high variance, too durdly. Seems better to just play Dreadnought in a blue shell or just play regular MOST.
I thought the creature tutors would help both assemble 12/12s or convert redundant cards to matchup-specific silver bullets, but in practice it's still too much variance.
You're the MOST expert here. Is the MOST shell not conducive to A+B creature combos? Or at least not at 4x copies? If there is a combo, it seems like it needs to take 2-4 slots and win the game on the spot instead of just making a 2-for-1 fatty.
Even the Swift Reconfiguration combo at least threatens to win immediately, which each piece alone advances your plan (removal or ramp green for the tutor engines).
It seems so much better to just cut the combo and then get to run good cards.
I kind of expected that. The main problem with Hushbringer-combo is that Hushbringer prevents you from playing all the best creatures in Legacy (with some notable exception, as we discussed). Otoh, you get some really nice hate against decks that use those creatures, but the problem is that it's not a great strategy, recently, to try to protect a creature and keep it in play. It's much easier to just play card advantage threats. I mean I do return to Hushbringer decks once in a while, but I haven't figured out much yet. I guess it's important to compensate for that disadvantage by playing for example planeswalkers, as discussed briefly above. Or other card advantage engines, perhaps. Edit: I think you should probably also build with the assumption that Hushbringer will be removed. So you can play a couple of creatures with etb-effects that don't have synergy, like Strix/Coatl and I think Yorion is a good idea.
There's a lot of removal that answers a 12/12 cmc 1 artifact creature. It probably kind of needs haste, and still there's a lot of instant speed removal, and most of it exiles. The problem with Fauna Shaman is that it's not reliable as a tutor, you often get to use it but not always. So it's great when you can use the recruiters to find important cards. But with 4 Fauna Shamans and 2 Fiend Artisans, it seems like it should be pretty consistent. But you also need a game plan that works to just draw into, topdecking, I suppose. It's really nice to have creatures with card drawing and etb tutor effects, because it gives you a bunch of action when you draw into things. Perhaps. And that's pretty much what one needs to give up on when playing Hushbringer. So playing cards like Uro seems really important, since it's both a draw engine with Hushbringer, and it kind of combos with the Hushbringer too. Well, if the opponent is sitting with an StP in hand, then it's kind of a disadvantage that you don't get an etb draw. So Karakas becomes really important, to protect it.
First, I think in a way we're all MOST experts, at least the players who play creature heavy decks. Especially the players playing creature heavy decks with some variaty of creature tutors in them. Just wanted to add that. We're all MOST experts. :) Actually, at my LGS, oh and also Vickas in this thread, has been playing Stiflenought MOST, so you could have a look at his lists, I think there's probably one or two here (should be linked in the primer).
Edit: I couldn't find that section in the primer so I'll write a little comment on it under the possbile combos section, right away.
But, anyway, when I've tested briefly different configurations, I've always felt like you want to minimize the combo, making it 2 cards preferably, and making sure they are individually good. I'll return and update if I find the text in the primer on this topic, I have been writing about it but not sure if it was lost in my notes when my phone crashed. So for example Heloid + Ballista combo seems nice, because Ballista itself can clear the board and kill planeswalkers, and Heliod is hard to remove and gains life and puts counters on creatures while waiting to combo. And yet there needs to be more synergies to be worth putting it in a deck, and Ballista needs to be well positioned. It's kind of power-crept out of the format now I think, although it's a good way to answer Bowmasters so maybe it's making it back again, not sure.
The best combo in MOST so far, for me, has been Aluren, because it requires very few deck building changes and it's a single card you can put in the deck and have an instant speed win that can't be stopped by removal. I've been thinking a lot about playing Cavern Harpy during the last year, it's a great grind tool by itself. However, Aluren is a 4 mana non-creature that does nothing by itself, so it has disadvantages too. But sandbagging a recruiter should be fairly doable, perhaps.
Yeah, I like Swift Configuration because it's both removal, protection and combo in one card. That flexibility makes it very useful even if you can't put together the combo. The weak part there is probably the Druid because 2 mana for a mana dork isn't great. It's not useless though.
Yeah, I already answered that but that's what I've always experienced. I think there is a card that may change that though. Abdel + Animate Dead is a pretty good Worldgorger-like combo with pieces that are individually good. Abdel flickers your creatures for card advantage.
Edit:
Suggestions:
Maybe Hushbringer + Dreadnought with Varolz backup can be run as a small synergy package, just putting them in a regular MOST deck. It's still going to feel not great to draw into them, but it will be an additional strategy that can be relied upon. I feel like Varolz is the best actual threat there, because Varolz lets you for a very low cost make any creature already in play get game-finishing potential, it can attack immediately. And you use a resource in your graveyard so it isn't costing you card advantage to do this. Maybe with Goblin Engineer to set it up. And/or Fauna Shaman. A Goblin Engineer toolbox is quite potent.
Last edited by pettdan; 01-11-2024 at 06:18 AM.
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