Stifle Vise

[Mr. Safety]

Looking for a fun new project to troll the local I whipped up this janky pile of shit. I've always been really fascinated by a potential mono-blue tempo list for Legacy, likely centered around Delver, but also able to leverage Stifle in a way that isn't underpowered. Black Vise, if landed early, can be a way to leverage mana disruption as a fast threat. I have found even on the draw it has done well in my limited playtesting/goldfishing. If I find this deck has legs at the local level I might actually invest in some Force of Wills to replace the Counterspells. Stifle seems quite good in the format ATM, as it has always been, but without a super fast clock to back it up or a way to leverage the mana denial, it has fallen out of favor. Nimble obstructionist is an uncounterable stifle that can be a win condition if needed.

EDIT: Black Vise is 'on hold'; I couldn't consistently keep cards in opponent's hands to make it threatening enough. Games were finished with Delver, Djinn, Snapcaster, and Obstructionist. Vise needs a lot more 'build-around' cards, so for now I'm going with Stifle-Djinn as the main plan. Dismember is very necessary and Djinn is a fast clock, even though it isn't resilient like TNN.

4x Delver of Secrets
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x nimble obstructionist
3x Tempest Djinn

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
3x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Pierce
2x Pact of Negation
3x Counterspell
2x Dismember
1x Predict
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

Sideboard
4x Misdirection
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Echoing Truth
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb


Feel free to post and join me in the jank-pile.

[Mr. Safety]

I may play some number of Foil in the deck...it's a poor-man's Force of Will in a deck with 10 islands. I like the fact that Daze feeds me an island to pay for it, and I don't need more than 2-3 lands optimally. That makes Tempest Djinn a little worse, but I was feeling like Force of Will would be too much card disadvantage for the deck that really needs *all* it's cards to keep the tempo pressure on. FoW is a necessary evil however, and maybe Foil can be that card for me. Most Force decks make sure to have 16 cards available to pitch at a minimum, to support a full set of Force. Ten Islands might not be enough to support Foil, at least not a full set. I think Disrupting Shoal would likely be better than Foil, and that card is limited as well. Foil could be a sideboard option when a t0 free counter is needed.

Another card I'm debating over Tempest Djinn is Nimble Obstructionist, because why not 8 Stifles? And a stifle that can attack for 3 as well, with flash? Janky yes, and makes me want to touch myself.

[H]

I have this belief that Snapcaster Mage would be really good here. Stifle is your best card, so getting to use it twice is even better. I'd much rather play that than a sorcery speed Air Elemental for 3 mana. Once upon a time, we would play Modern for shits and giggles and I'd play a bad version of Grixis Control. I'd always keep a couple Shadow of Doubt in there and times where you Shadow a fetch, make your lands drop and their next turn, Snapcaster Shadow on another fetch were priceless.

[Mr. Safety]

EDIT: Thought you were talking Obstructionist, but you were talking Djinn.

Shadow of Doubt seems alright, especially where it cantrips. It has applications outside of fetchlands as well (Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition, Green Sun's Zenith, Crop Rotation, Gamble.) I'm not sure it's better than Obstructionist, which can stifle/draw OR beat for 3 in the air, with flash. I have the Snapcasters, and they were in there before I went deep into Tempest Djinn. Djinn might not be good enough, but getting a 3/4 flyer for UUU, and one that rewards late game lands, seemed to be good. Maybe not good enough, but the dork in me has to try.

Thanks for the response! I wasn't sure if I would get any feedback at all, lol.

EDIT: I honestly think Shadow of Doubt could be really good here. Will test.

[JackaBo]

EDIT: Thought you were talking Obstructionist, but you were talking Djinn.

Shadow of Doubt seems alright, especially where it cantrips. It has applications outside of fetchlands as well (Stoneforge Mystic, Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition, Green Sun's Zenith, Crop Rotation, Gamble.) I'm not sure it's better than Obstructionist, which can stifle/draw OR beat for 3 in the air, with flash. I have the Snapcasters, and they were in there before I went deep into Tempest Djinn. Djinn might not be good enough, but getting a 3/4 flyer for UUU, and one that rewards late game lands, seemed to be good. Maybe not good enough, but the dork in me has to try.

Thanks for the response! I wasn't sure if I would get any feedback at all, lol.

EDIT: I honestly think Shadow of Doubt could be really good here. Will test.

Check out Interdict. Doesnt counter triggers but neither does shadow. Maybe shadow is better as it counters tutors of all sorts.

[Mr. Safety]

Will check on interdict.

I'm looking at nimble obstructionist closer, because it's an uncounterable stifle that cantrips, all while conveniently being a 3 power flier when needed.

Edit: interdict is a no. Too narrow of a stifle effect, shadow is leagues better. If it was 1 mana it would be tempting.

I think Djinn might be a no-go. Obstructionist seems way better, even if it isn't as big. Will be changing up the deck soon.

[Mr. Safety]

It's probably correct to just play Snapcasters. It's rough, if we had seen Tempest Djinn even 5 years ago it would be a multi-format all-star and $20 each.

I still like the idea of Obstructionist, but it is definitely a tougher sell at 3 mana. Snapcaster at least does different roles (Stifle, Boomerangs, Counterspells.)

4x Vise
4x Delver
3x Snapcaster

4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Boomerang
2x Counterspell
3x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Pierce
4x Lotus Petal

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

Side
4x Foil
1x Jace TMS
2x Needle
2x Bomb
2x Cage
2x Crypt
2x Dismember

EDIT: Will try 4x Petal and 18x Lands for now.

[Mr. Safety]

So I essentially copy/pasted the formula for RUG Delver/Can Thresh, and that leaves me with this:

Threats
4x Delver
4x Vise
3x Snapcaster
1x Vendilion Clique

Counterspells
4x Daze
2x Counterspell
2x Foil
2x Spell Pierce

Removal (vise synergy-based)
4x Boomerang
4x Vapor Snag

Cantrips
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

4x Stifle

18x Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island

So it's basically a Delver variant that offers this:

-Resilience to Wasteland/Blood Moon
-Fast clock that isn't creature based (Vise)
-Snapcaster card advantage
-Rogue strategy (nobody expects Vise/Boomerang)

What it suffers from is this:

-Vise is polarizing (incredibly good or incredibly bad), terrible late game, incredible in multiples early. Being on the play matters A LOT.
-'Removal' (bounce) doesn't actually deal with threats
-If threats are answered the late game is horrible.
-cards, on average, cost a little more than RUG Delver, making it a little clunky. Gotta have the right mix to take control early and make land drops
-Force of Will tradeoff is (most likely) bad. Don't lose a valuable tempo element to press Vise advantage (by losing a bounce spell to force) but if someone has the nuts t1-2 and can play around Daze/Stifle/Spell Pierce, I'm fucked
-Without mana acceleration, which waters the deck down, it can't go threat + protection aside from Daze. It's often more important to keep Stifle open t1 than play a Delver/Vise t1.

Games so far are fun and interactive, and it can be completely nuts if it curves out t1 Stifle w/Daze backup, t2 Wasteland + Threat.

Thoughts/ideas for developing the deck:

-Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle (gives free information for how to play out the early game, can name fetches to essentially 'Stifle' more targets.)
-Go all-in on Stifle variants with Nimble Obstructionist, but not sure if Stifle is *that* good.
-Drop Counterspell for Eye of Nowhere and go full-on bounce-town to leverage Vise more
-Drop Vise for another threat (Tempest Djinn) and just play a tempo game that doesn't care about cards in hand, just taking advantage of resilient mana-base.
-Alternative Counterspell variants to be cheaper mana-wise: Spell Snare, Force Spike, Dispel, Disrupt, Invasive Surgery, Turn Aside
-Play more lands (20) and go deeper into Tempest Djinn/Foil


Snap
Hoodwink
Curfew
Mark of Eviction
Overburden
Academy Ruins
Aether Spellbomb
Unsubstantiate
Venser, Shaper Savant

[ronco]

What about sunder as a mid/late game finisher with a vise or three out?

Would looking into the STAX bag o' tricks help with what you are trying to accomplish (which I can't really figure out, I'm bad at magic lol). Maybe the sphere/orb or other taxing effects to make it more difficult for the enemy to push through spells? The talk about turning off fetches made me think that's the direction you were wanting to go...

Might be a terrible idea, but Arcane Denial for more vice synergy? Dampening Sphere, and I think there is something about players not able to play more than one spell/turn? Arcane Laboratory perhaps combined with howling mine type draw stuff? Standstill?

I like the idea of overburden, no idea if it's legit or not though!

Disallow seems to fit this deck too, plus has versatility for spells or abilities.

Regarding interdict, what abilities is it missing? It won't get triggered abilities like storm or ETB, are you running into those enough to warrant skipping it (and it's cantrip)?

[Mr. Safety]

Sunder just costs too much. The problem is getting opponents hands full without being able to play spells. Arcane Laboratory is good, might be what I'm looking for. I was considering splashing red for Blood Moon as well, accomplishing the same thing essentially. Laboratory is probably the best suggestion yet, thanks!

Standstill seems bad if I don't already have a Vise on the table. Yes it causes opponents to hesitate to play spells, which might be exactly what I want, but at that point I think I have to give up on the Delver plan so I can shoehorn in Vise synergies. It's intriquing, for sure. It's basically going back to the old Stifle-Nought lists with Phyrexian Dreadnought. I wish I still had Dreadnoughts, that might be actually good.

Rough list:

4x Black Vise
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Foil
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Arcane Laboratory
3x Counterspell
3x Boomerang
2x Spell Pierce
2x Dismember

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
12x Island


So it comes down to a prison style approach with Vise as a wincon or Vise as an aggressive threat alongside delver. I like both approaches, but the prison style is obviously more unique. I'll nab a set of Lab and Standstill, they are like $2 a piece, and test it out. Some number of Mishra's Factories would have to be in there, I think, but I need a lot of Islands to feed Foil and the double blue requirements.

Thanks! This seems like a lot of fun, honestly. Tier? No way, but fun as hell.

[ronco]

Do you run into issues of not finding the vise when you need it? Tinker + Seat of the synod might help. OThers:


Artificer's intuition
fabricate
trinket mage
whir of invention


Heres an interesting one:
Tezzeret the seeker put your vice in play and then beat down with them!

I use some of these in my bad stasis deck, and might need to look into ole tezzy myself for that deck!

Bonus, the above can find artifact lands if you get in a mana screw situation.

[Mr. Safety]

I want to keep it legacy legal, lol. I think Arcane Lab and Standstill are really good ideas.

[ahg113]

Squelch isn't as responsive as Stifle, but also is a can-trip. It may have a place if the gotcha aspects are worthwhile. And while this is budget, really oughta have TNN in there. Just not a reason to play him in a mono-blue deck looking for finishers. It is a wretched, horrible card, but makes too much sense not to play, principals be damned.

[Mr. Safety]

Squelch isn't as responsive as Stifle, but also is a can-trip. It may have a place if the gotcha aspects are worthwhile. And while this is budget, really oughta have TNN in there. Just not a reason to play him in a mono-blue deck looking for finishers. It is a wretched, horrible card, but makes too much sense not to play, principals be damned.

I agree with you, but I don't play blue in legacy generally (as you can see no Forces or blue duals) so investing in TNN would be silly. I invested a total of $5 for sets of Tempest Djinn and Nimble Obstructionist, I think it will get me by with this troll deck, lol. If I were seriously looking to make this competitive TNN would be necessity, and I would honestly just move over to MUC or another more powerful blue-based deck.

I like Squelch, it's a more efficient Obstructionist, but it's also counter-able while NO isn't. Still a solid idea, similar to Shadow of Doubt, to increase the decks velocity (which it needs!)

[compacta_d]

I'm greedy and would love to see a Whir package here. Get your Vises. Can also get a pithing needle, Aether Spellbomb or Crystal Shard. Coupled with Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland it would be very nasty indeed.

Maybe Cryptic Command or Trickbind otherwise.

How you gonna forget Trickbind?

I like the Bird as well tho.

[Mr. Safety]

Whir seems quite good, I love the idea, especially with Academy Ruins...maybe with Artificer's Intuition and a set of Seat of the Synod? Then I can play singletons of Needle, Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, and a set of Black Vise. Get them back with Ruins. Spicy...Trickbind is good, not sure if I want more than 4 Stifle effects once I get going on the ArtIntuition plan. Probe + Needle seems really good as well for shutting off fetches, as well as providing fodder and velocity.

[Mr. Safety]

OP is updated with Djinn over Vise. Vise needs it's own deck.

[ronco]

Indeed, I'm doing my best to make vise a wincon in my traditional stasis turned stasis/stax tezzeret deck. Dom added a lot of cool twists with voltaic servant and that 7/7 traxos fellow. both can be tutored diretly into play (as can vise) with tezz the seeker. Grim monoliths can be untapped, tangle wire things can be untapped. Heck i'm even looking at time of ice (whatever that saga is) and Blink of an eye. 4 potential cards in one set? psh, unheard of!

[Mr. Safety]

I am having a blast with the Djinn version for now, but I want build around Artificer's Intuition and find a way to prevent opponent's from playing spells, like Gitaxian Probe + Pithing Needle for fetches, Stifle/Obstructionist for fetches, Remand for spells, and then find a way to lock them down with Arcane Laboratory and/or Winter Orb. It ends up being jammed, but it will sort itself out. I know I want 4x Winter Orb, 4x Black Vise, and 3x Artificer's Intuition. Beyond that I can play a toolbox for hate cards, work in cantrips, and see if I need further lock pieces. I think Howling Mine is a little too dangerous, but Winter Orb seems like an easier work-around than Stasis.

Will update with list once I figure it out...

Blink of an Eye is a functional reprint of Into the Roil, just in case you want more than 4 copies of that effect.

[Mr. Safety]

Rough List

4x Black Vise
4x Standstill
4x Winter Orb
3x Artificer's Intuition
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Aether Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
4x Remand
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Tolaria West
13x Island


Sideboard is going to have some number of Arcane Laboratory, Dismember, Echoing Truth, maybe a Jace. Need to see if this even does what I want first. Also debating Brainstorm over Ponder (I can put in 4 fetches and have plenty of shuffle effects with AIntuition) but I can't really fit in more than 4 cantrips, and Ponder is better as a standalone cantrip than Brainstorm, just because it gives 4 potential looks on its own. Standstill should do a fine job of feeding me cards as well, and if not...die to Vise!