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Thread: [Deck] 5c Humans

  1. #1

    [Deck] 5c Humans

    5c Legacy Humans Intro

    This is my shot at doing a pre-Primer for Legacy Humans. I think this is a viable and under-explored deck and I hope this will get it some greater visibility.

    While a variety of people started looking at whether or not this was a possible competitive deck in Legacy not long after it took over Modern (all praise to Collins Mullen), the real credit for development of the deck in its current iterations belongs to Eddie Zamora aka yosoyez on MTGO. You can find some of his take on the deck at Hipsters of the Coast's interview with him, plus the lists he was testing at that time.

    What is 5c Humans in Legacy?

    Humans, much like in Modern, is a tribal, creature-based tempo deck. It's goal is to get out threats early and keep the pressure on the opponent, while disrupting their ability to effectively react to the threats in play or to enact their own game plan. In this, Humans is closer to Merfolk, Slivers, and Goblins than to either Delver, which is a tempo deck relying on relatively few threats and a lot of counterspell-based disruption or Death & Taxes, which is more of a soft-lock, creature-based prison deck happy to grind out longer games and relying on it's Stoneblade core when it needs to get really aggressive.

    Humans can certainly lock out combo decks with it's access to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Meddling Mage, but unlike Death & Taxes, the deck can also be very aggressive and close out games in 3-4 turns. Starts with Champion of the Parish into 2 more humans on turn 2 can lead to a 3/3 attacker on turn 2, something Death & Taxes just can't do. Further, by turn 3, in the absence of effective removal, that 3/3 can become a 4/4, a 5/5 or even a 6/6. Again, this is reminiscent of Merfolk, Slivers and Spirits (in Modern).

    Why Play 5c Humans in Legacy?
    • You like D&T but always wanted to be more aggressive.
    • You like short matches.
    • You like to frustrate combo decks with your knowledge of the meta by casting an uncounterable Meddling Mage and naming their one wincon.
    • You like to run over Control decks.
    • You want to play blue cards without Force of Will or Braintstorm or Snapcaster Mage.
    • You think the Stoneblade package is bad in a meta dominated by Kolaghan's Command and Terminus.
    • You like having all the creatures, all the Human creatures.
    • You recognize the almost infinite number of Humans with Abilities and their variety and stupid power level, and you know that unlike any other tribe, WotC will print new, very powerful Humans in every single set.
    • You like 4 Cavern of Souls.
    • 16 CMC 1 spells and 17 CMC 2 Creatures, with only ~6 creatures CMC 3 or 4 feels really, really good to you, especially since you can basically leave Vial on 2 in all but the most out there situations.


    Why Not Play 5c Humans in Legacy?
    • You want to be a Control or Mid-Range player.
    • You hate losing to good stuff (aka dumpster fire pile of 1-for-1 hate) mid-range decks like Grixis Control.
    • You like playing turn 1 aggro-combo decks like BR Reanimator.
    • You hate losing to turn 1 combo kill decks.
    • You feel like you are playing a Modern deck in Legacy, no matter how good it might be.
    • You just can't imagine not playing Force of Will/Brainstorm.
    • If Blood Moon decks are all the rage again.


    The Core Cards
    This is focused on the 5c version, but yosoyez also has a 3-color Knight of the Reliquary Build that eschews all Meddling Mages and Reflector Mages, radically alters the manabase, and uses 3 Swords to Plowshares (hence the mana revamp). That, and a UW variant, are listed below.

    NOTE: Legacy Vs. Modern in the maindeck: What is different?
    The two main creature differences are Mother of Runes and Recruiter of the Guard/Imperial Recruiter. But very importantly, for lands, we get Wasteland and Karakas.

    Okay, now on to the cards...

    CMC 1
    Aether Vial, 4-of. Main deck, the only non-creature spell you play is Aether Vial. And like any other Vial deck, it is the best card in the deck. After that, the question is what Humans do you absolutely need?

    Champion of the Parish, 4-of. This is Public Enemy #1 for everyone else and your best little monster. This card can, especially with a Vial in play, get out of control exceedingly quickly and run your opponent over.

    Noble Hierarch, 4-of. What can we say about the best mana dork for Humans? Fixes colors, ramps, and provides Exalted. Really, really good with Recruiters.

    Mother of Runes, 4-of. D&T and Maverick can tell you how good this card is. Really, really good. And like Noble, it is a 1 mana pump spell for Champion.

    CMC 2
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 4-of. Again, if you have played with or against her, you know she is aggressive and annoyingly disruptive. So much value for 2 mana and a lynchpin of fights against combo and control.

    Thalia's Lieutenant, 4-of. If Champion is your 1 mana go-it-alone monster that gets pumped by everyone, Lieutenant is the card that makes every other human a growing threat, and then it does it's own impression of Champion by also growing each time a human resolves. Champion + Lieutenant is the core of the aggression in your deck. If this deck had a Flickerwisp or Restoration Angel effect to recycle Lieutenant... well, 'nuff said.

    Kitesail Feebooter, 4-of. This is a surprisingly powerful little card, despite the fact that it will often die and give them their non-creature card back. Firstly, it takes “non-creature, non-land” card from their hand: instants, sorceries, artifacts aka equipment, enchantments, planeswalkers. See where that is going? Secondly, it can tell you exactly what to name with Meddling Mage. Thirdly, it tells you what you should or should not do next. Should I extend my board? Or am I going to get blown out if I do so? Kitesail Freeinfo Pirate will enlighten your decision making process.

    Meddling Mage, 3-of. Name the right card against certain decks and win the game. Name the right card at the right time and allow yourself to fight through them to win the game. Kind of a terrible card against Mid-range pile of stuff decks, since there is just too much to name, but pretty great everywhere else.

    Dark Confidant aka Bob, 0 or 2. I like this add by yosoyez since it provides card advantage and forces decks to “waste” removal on it as opposed to threats that are going to get them dead. Just a solid card.

    CMC 3
    Imperial Recruiter/Recruiter of the Guard, 2-of. Why one or the other? Recruiter of the Guard can't get Reflector Mage, Imperial Recruiter can, and they both get everything else. R mana is essentially free and both cards are about the same price now. Obviously, any real recruiter is better than Militia Bugler. Recruiter of the Guard is only useful if running something not Reflector Mage.

    Reflector Mage, 2-of. Just a good card. A strong tempo play, fetchable, and able to swing in.

    Orzhov Pontiff, 1-of. Utility, value, and a way to clear out anything from True-Name Nemesis to Spirit tokens to Basleful Strix to almost all of D&T. Best one-sided sweeper in the format.

    CMC 4
    Palace Jailer, 1-of. Removal and Monarch. So good against control decks or decks that can't fly over you. At least as good as it is in D&T.

    Mana
    Cavern of Souls, 4-of. Obvious and delightful. Nothing like blanking your opponent's counter spells with lands and Vial.

    Ancient Ziggurat, 4-of. 5 colors, 35 creatures. Sure, it will bite you in the buttocks on occasion, but it provides creamy smoothness for creatures without making you play City of Brass.

    Unclaimed Territory, 4-of. More mana correction, but also lets you generate waste mana.

    Wasteland, 4-of. Instead of basics, we play a little bit of the land destruction game, especially important versus greedy mana decks and big mana decks like Eldrazi.

    Horizon Canopy, 3-4. W and G mana, draws cards. Like it's Hierarch, a staple in any deck like this.

    Karakas, 2-of. Gotta fight Reanimator and Sneak and Show somehow, and it gets you some white mana and synergizes with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Venser, Shaper Savant.

    If this feels very “set 60”, it isn't, but as of now, I think there isn't as much wiggle room as some other decks if you are going the full 5c route.

    If you go with the 5 color build, the manabase is pretty much locked unless you wanted to risk dropping Wasteland or you want to move away from 5 colors to 2-3 colors and either drop the Reflector Mage/Meddling Mage package for other spells, essentially, Wb or Abzan or drop black and red and go straight UW.

    Among the creatures, Bob and Kitesail Freebooter are the only two cards that feel like we could mess with them. I have seen builds that go -1 Mom and/or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, but I have to say that that feels very sketchy to me.

    Alternatives for the Main: Abzan, UW, Wb.
    The driver for these other builds is to have better fair creature matches like Eldrazi, Maverick, Goblins, D&T. As mentioned in the podcast I linked to at the beginning, 5c is very good against Control and Combo, but a bit more fragile to the creature matches, so if you want to go even bigger, the Knight of the Reliquary Abzan build can certainly present larger, more powerful creatures and a mana base that supports Swords to Plowshares and some greater sideboard spell diversity.

    Going Wb/Junk
    Kambal, Consul of Allocation. Another way to fight combo and also decent against Burn.

    Knight of the Reliquary. Obviously, an immensely powerful beater in a fair-centric meta, plus you can pull up a Wasteland or Karaks or something else when you need it

    Swords to Plowshares. No Reflector Mage main, more true W lands, gotta run StP.

    Mana for Wb: 4 Fetches, 2 Scrubland, 3 Plains, 2 Karakas, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Wasteland, +2 more

    Mana for Abzan: 4 Cavern, 4 Wasteland, 4 Windswept Heath, 1 Bayou, 1 Horizon Canopy, 1 Karakas, 1 Marsh Flats, 1 Plains, 2 Savannah, 2 Scrubland

    Going UW
    Phantasmal Image. Sure, it dies whenever it is targeted, but copying opponent's big dummies and swinging back on them seems good. So does a free copy of Thalia's Lieutenant, Reflector Mage, Palace Jailer, and Meddling Mage.

    Mana for UW: 4 Cavern, 4 W/x fetches, 4 Tundra, 2 Plains, 3 Karakas, 4 Wasteland

    The Sideboard
    If the maindeck feels a bit tight, the sideboard is a potpourri of options. In fact, it really is hard to decide what to do. The big dividing line again is 5c vs. W/x/x. 5C is going to be heavily oriented towards creatures, Phyrexian mana spells and artifacts, while W/x/x is going to have a lot more non-creature spell options.

    Cards people have tried (based in MTGTop8.com deck lists):

    Containment Priest. It's Human and good versus creature combo like Dredge, Elves, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator. 1-2.

    Ethersworn Canonist Human, anti-combo and Burn. 0-2.

    Surgical Extraction Anti-graveyard combo, anti-Lands. 2-4.

    Faerie Macabre Anti-graveyard combo, fetchable, best against Reanimator. 0-2.

    Dismember, for the Eldrazi matches in particular, but really any creature deck where some removal gets blockers out of the way, like UB
    Death's Shadow and D&T. 0-2.

    Sanctum Prelate. Good against Combo and Control. 1-2.

    Venser, Shaper Savant. This is a really nice bit of tech for Combo and Control matches, plus you can re-use it with Karakas. 0-1.

    Something to destroy artifacts and enchantments, either Reclamation Sage or my personal favorite, the new Knight of Autumn, because it also provides a 4/3 or fights Burn by giving life-gain. Leonin-Relic-Warder is also do-able in UW or Wb. None of them is a Human. If they were, well, that would be sweet. 2.

    Gaddock Teeg. Great versus Control and Combo and Big Mana decks with Planeswalkers. 0-1.

    +1 Recruiter for the grindy matches. 0-1.

    +1 Orzhov Pontiff for D&T, Stoneblade. 1.

    +1 Palace Jailer. 0-1.

    +1 Reflector Mage. 0-1.

    Mirran Crusader. Very good against Grixis, a beast when you can follow it up with Thali's Lieutenant, and Human. 0-3

    Izzet Staticaster. Not my favorite, but it is a house against Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, and D&T. Combines quite nicely with Pontiff too. 0-1.

    Mindbreak Trap if you really worry about fast combo like TES, ANT, High Tide, Oops All Spells, etc. 0-2

    Null Rod. Sure, it's a nonbo with Vial, but against Steel Stompy, MUD, Eldrazi Post, D&T, Stoneblade, and Painter, it's pretty powerful, plus its 2 colorless mana.

    The next few are UW/Wb only and I don't know if I like them in combination with the aggro intent of the deck.
    Rest in Peace, 0-2

    Council's Judgment, 0-2

    Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, 0-1

    Stony Silence, for MUD, Steel Stompy, and Eldrazi Post. 0-1

    Abzan only:
    Bojuka Bog because Knight of the Reliquary. 0-1

    Additional Sideboard Options

    Grafdigger's Cage is a card that night be a necessity if Dredge and Reanimator become a thing. We aren't likely a Rest in Peace-friendly deck, even with 4 Horizon Canopy, as that is only 6 white sources.

    Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt The other options for graveyard hate if Dredge returns strongly alongside Reanimator.

    Cards To Be Tested
    See the discussions in the thread.

    How to Use Certain Cards
    Interactions are somewhat complicated with this deck. The value of certain cards in certain matches is not always clear and especially with cards like Champion and Lieutenant, how to sequence can be very important. These are all things to practice and work on with the deck.

    For example, if you have Vial on 1 and 2 mana with Cahmpion and Lieutenant in hand, you want to cast Lieutenant, see if it gets countered, and then with it's triggers on the stack on the stack, Vial in Champion to get both triggers for both cards, giving you a 3/3 Champion and a 2/2 Lieutenant.
    • Cast Lieutenant. It resolves, then its triggered ability goes on the stack on an empty board. Hold priority*.
    • Activate Vial and put Hierarch (or any other Human) on the battlefield. This triggers Lieutenant's second ability.
    • The second trigger resolves first, and Lieutenant receives a counter.
    • Then the first trigger resolves, and Hierarch (or else) receives a counter.



    This works well with Humans with Flash, like Izzet Staticaster and Heron's Grace Champion. At any time, you can use Vial to put Lieutenant on the battlefield, and then use your mana to cast a Human at instant speed while Lieutenant's ETB ability is on the stack. Works well too with two Vials.

    You can also respond to Miracle triggers using Vial.
    • When the player draws a Miracle card as his first draw of the turn, he can reveal that card and then the Miracle trigger goes on the stack. When this trigger resolves, it allows that player to cast said spell for the Miracle cost.
    • You just have to respond to the Miracle trigger with Freebooter/Meddling Mage/Teeg to stop it before he can play the spell.



    Freebooter can also be used to poach equipment from a player when they cast Stoneforge Mystic, since Freebooter hits all non-creature spells.

    What Do I play First?
    This is a common dilemma with a deck with so many 1-drops.

    Game 1 and you don't know what your opponent is on:
    The first answer is, if you have Vial, you always cast vial first.
    After that, it depends on what is in your hand. If you have an aggressive start, with Champion, plus 1-2 cards you can play turn 2, I think Champion is generally correct. If you have a slower hand with Hierarch and other creatures or if you got greedy and kept a 1 land, Hierarch hand, then Hierarch is the better play. By the way, try not to keep 1 land, Hierarch because any competent player will counter/kill your mana dork.

    Post-Board or if you know what your opponent is on:
    Now it really depends on their deck.
    Do you want to be super aggressive or do you need to take advantage of building a board presence?
    Do you have Cavern against a FoW/Daze deck?
    How badly do you need the two cards you would play turn 1? For example, if you really need Champion, but can wait a turn and are willing to bait out removal or countermagic with Noble, then do that. Or maybe the rest of your hand is a bit slower and you want those to resolve, so you play Champion first.

    Remember, you have Mom, Hierarch, and Champion, so if you don't have a vial in hand, you have a very good chance of having at least one other viable cmc 1 creature to play.

    Match-ups for 5c
    Part of the reason I am trying this deck is that I don't actually feel like D&T, which I have played since the beginning of the Deathrite Shaman meta into the present, is well positioned at the moment, partially because it has a hard time closing the door quickly and partly because Grixis Control in particular makes Stoneblade quite weak. UW Control is tough, Grixis Control is nearly unwinnable unless they stumble horribly, and those two decks are 17% of the meta. Omni-Tell, which is another 6% of the meta, is also pretty terrible (not classic Sneak and Show, which is quite good.)

    My baseline 5c list from yosoyez is here. I'm taking a swipe at favorability ranking by Great, Good, Even, Bad, Very Bad.

    yosoyez has a sideboard list here, it is pinned to whatever his latest build is, so it will vary to a certain extent, but it is a good way to think about your role in the match.

    vs. UW Control Even
    Keep aggressive hands and find a way to manage their two relevant removal spells, aka land Mom and Meddling Mage. TgoT is always a house. Kill them quickly, don't overextend. I know Mom is key pre-board, but she gets worse. You need to keep aggro on and Mom is worth less.
    IN: 1 Imperial Recruiter, 2 Sanctum Prelate, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant, possibly 2 Sage/KoA
    OUT: 1-2 Reflector Mage/0-1 Pontiff depending on their wincon, 2-4 Mom

    vs. Grixis Control Even to Bad
    Game 1, keep aggressive hands, hope they don't have all the removal, Mom is huge, Vial is huge, keeping TgoT alive is huge. You just can't name enough with Meddling Mage, but you have to try: Name K-Command and hope you can hang on. Beware their new tech: Goblin Cratermaker. This + K-Command is a brutal cycle of removal and two for ones.
    IN: 1 Imperial Recruiter, 1 Venser, Shaper Savant, 1 Izzet Staticaster if you run it or 1 Orzhov Pontiff
    OUT: 3 Meddling Mage

    vs. Reanimator Bad to Even, almost entirely hinging on on turn 1
    Thalia, Meddling Mage, Freebooter are your heroes. Sideboard into the obvious. You can grind this out if they don't blow you out turn 1.
    IN: 4 whatever you have of Surgical and Faerie, 2 KoA/Sage/Leonin, 1 Containment Priest
    OUT: 1 Pontiff, 2 Dark Confidant, 4 Mom

    vs. Eldrazi Even to Bad
    This is a race in a lot of ways and Ballista is a beast. You want Cavern + Champion and try to just go over them. Their creatures don't grow, yours do. Surgical is to go after a SOL land after you wasteland it. Name Walking Ballista first with Meddling Mage!
    IN: 2 Dismember, 1 Recruiter, 2 Sage/KOA, 2-3 Surgical
    OUT: 3-4 TGoT, 4 Mom.

    vs. UB Death's Shadow Good to Great
    I think we match-up very well, a lot of their spells are bad against us, name Fatal Push with Meddling Mage.
    IN: 2 Dismember,
    OUT: 1 Pontiff, 1 Kitesail Freebooter

    vs. Grixis Delver Good to Great
    Main is fine; post-board we should not lose. Meddling Mage should probably name Push or Bolt.
    IN: 1 Pontiff, 2 Dismember, 2 Sanctum Prelate (HINT: name 1)
    OUT: 2 Dark Confidant, 3 ?

    vs. Loam No idea... yosoyez says it's Bad, so I go with his estimate
    IN: 2 Dismember, 2 Surgical
    OUT: ?

    vs. Maverick It's been Even edging towards Good for me, but very swingy... yosoyez says it's Bad
    IN: 2 Dismember, 1 Pontiff
    OUT: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    vs. Lands Even
    We go very wide and big enough that a 2 damage sweeper won't do it. Meddling Mage can name Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam. Sideboard into graveyard hate.
    IN: 4 Surgical Extraction/Faerie, 2 Sanctum Prelate, 2 KoA/Sage
    OUT: 1 Pontiff, 2 Bob, 4 Mom, 1 Lieutenant

    vs. Elves Even
    I'm not really sure, but Meddling Mage on Natural Order seems very strong, and Pontiff is amazing. Post-board, more Pontiff, Venser, Dismember, Priest and Canonist all seem good.
    IN: 1 Pontiff, 2 Dismember, 1 Venser, 1 Priest, 1 Canonist
    OUT: 4 TGoT, 2 Mom.

    vs. Storm Good
    Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is a win. Game 2, a little harder, have to stop two wincons. Just have to hope they don't have the turn 1 kill. They will side in Massacre and be VERY VERY sad.
    IN: 1 Canonist, 1 Pontiff, 2 Prelate, 2 Surgical
    OUT: 1 Jailer, 2 Reflector, 3 Mom

    vs. Dredge Even?
    We put a lot of pressure on them and they on us. I think game 1 is harder. Sideboard, go after Bridges, ought to be able to win if that happens.
    IN: 4 Surgical/Faerie, 1 Pontiff, 1 Priest
    OUT: 1 Jailer, 2 Dark Confidant, 3 Mom

    vs. Stoneblade Even
    I used to think this was bad, but Pontiff + Freebooter is really strong. The problem here is keeping their equipment offline and dealing with TNN ASAP. Pontiff is a hero here. Meddling Mage names Swords to Plowshares first, then TNN, then Stoneforge Mystic. Lieutenant is nice, but our creatures are mostly better, so we'll eventually be the beatdown deck anyway.
    IN: 1 Pontiff, 1 Recruiter, 2 Sage/KoA
    OUT: 1 Jailer, 3 Thalia's Lieutenant.

    vs. Dark Depths No idea...
    Name Vampire Hexmage then Crop Rotation.
    IN: 3 Surgical Extraction/Faerie, 2 Sanctum Prelate, 2 KoA/Sage
    OUT: 1 Pontiff, 2 Bob, 4 Lieutenant

    vs. Goblins Even
    I feel like we're as fast, but we need them off of Vial as badly as they need us off of Vial. This feels like a straight brawl. Goblin Ringleader and Warchief are good names with Meddling Mage.
    IN: 1 Pontiff, 2 Dismember, 2 KoA/Sage, 1 Recruiter, 1 Priest
    OUT: 4 Freebooter, 3 TGoT

    vs. D&T Good
    D&T is a very solid decks in many ways, but it has issues with aggressive Tribal decks. Pontiff is an obvious house, and so is Reflector Mage. Name Swords to Plowshares Game 1 and they have very limited removal. Name it twice if you need to just to be safe. DO NOT let them equip Mirran Crusader.
    IN: 2 Dismember, 1 Pontiff, 1 Recruiter, 2 Knight of Autumn, 1 Deputy of Detention, 1 P+K Nalaar
    OUT: 4 TgoT, 3 Meddling Mage, 1 Sanctum Prelate

    Competitive Builds

    5c Humans
    5-0 MTGO 10/6/2018 yosoyez
    21 LANDS
    4 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Horizon Canopy
    2 Karakas
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Wasteland

    35 CREATURES
    4 Champion of the Parish
    2 Imperial Recruiter
    2 Dark Confidant
    4 Kitesail Freebooter
    3 Meddling Mage
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Noble Hierarch
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Palace Jailer
    2 Reflector Mage
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    4 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Aether Vial

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Dismember
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Imperial Recruiter
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Palace Jailer
    2 Reclamation Sage
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant

    UW Humans
    #1 MTGO Competitive Legacy League 9/15/2018 CiriBarrayar

    21 LANDS
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Karakas
    2 Plains
    4 Tundra
    4 Wasteland

    35 CREATURES
    4 Champion of the Parish
    1 Glowrider
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Mother of Runes
    2 Palace Jailer
    4 Phantasmal Image
    3 Recruiter of the Guard
    3 Reflector Mage
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    4 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Aether Vial

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Containment Priest
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Leonin Relic-Warder
    3 Mirran Crusader
    1 Reflector Mage
    4 Surgical Extraction

    Abzan Humans
    MTGO Competitive Legacy League 04/10/18 #3 Human - Yosoyez

    21 LANDS
    1 Bayou
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 Karakas
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Plains
    2 Savannah
    2 Scrubland
    4 Wasteland
    4 Windswept Heath

    32 CREATURES
    4 Champion of the Parish
    2 Dark Confidant
    4 Kitesail Freebooter
    3 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Noble Hierarch
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    3 INSTANTS and SORC.
    3 Swords to Plowshares

    4 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Aether Vial

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Palace Jailer
    2 Reclamation Sage
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Swords to Plowshares

    WB Humans
    ConradKolos Competitive Legacy League 2018-10-13, (5-0)

    Creatures (29)
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Mother of Runes
    2 Dark Confidant
    2 Kitesail Freebooter
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
    1 Mangara of Corondor
    1 Militia Bugler
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    3 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Palace Jailer

    Spells (2)
    2 Swords to Plowshares

    Artifacts (5)
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Thorn of Amethyst

    Lands (24)
    1 Arid Mesa
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Karakas
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Mutavault
    1 Rishadan Port
    2 Scrubland
    4 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Wasteland
    1 Windswept Heath

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Shared Triumph
    1 Stony Silence
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    Twitch Casts

    Legacy for Staples 11/3-4/2018 - @yosoyez
    Deck list
    Quarterfinals
    Finals
    Last edited by redtwister; 04-23-2019 at 02:47 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Why hello =) i think i have some updates to a couple of the lists on here if youre interested. And thanks for the shout out!

  3. #3

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by yosoyez View Post
    Why hello =) i think i have some updates to a couple of the lists on here if youre interested. And thanks for the shout out!
    Hey!

    That would be very welcome. Deck lists, sideboarding, match-up analysis, etc. I think this deck has legs and I 'd like to see it get some visibility.

    As for the shout out, just giving credit where credit is due, ya know?

  4. #4
    Victory Dance ftw?
    Mirrislegend's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    As someone who primarily plays Modern, I find that many games vs Humans (for many different decks) comes down to praying that they don't draw Mantis Rider. Obviously Legacy is very different in many ways, but it still seems like a super-high-impact play would be highly advantageous. Something you can rip off the top and slam on the table to swing the game. Maybe Abzan Falconer or Mikaeus, the Lunarch? Other ideas: Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Anafenza, the Foremost; Dragonsoul Knight; Liliana, Heretical Healer; Najeela, the Blade-Blossom; Paragon of the Amesha; Scab-Clan Berserker; Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
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    God, is that furry bondage?

  5. #5

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    I've looked at some of those.

    What is our goal with additional cards? What are we fighting?

    For me, I'm trying to figure out how to beat Grixis and other creature decks more effectively. I would like more evasion e.g. flying, but also ways to get around Baleful Strix and the piles of RB removal, such as Protection.

    CMC 1-2 is the sweet spot and I'm looking for Humans in that range because Legacy, plus it is hard to figure out where they would fit in the main unless you want to go down on Bob. That's a big reason why Mantis Rider isn't great, despite Haste and Flying and a 3/3 body. Our mana is very susceptible to Wasteland and Port and ticking to 3 is quite risky. BTW: 531 CMC 2 Humans that are Legacy-legal... wow.

    That said, I like these as worth testing, more or less in order of how much I like them:
    Alesha, Who Smiles at Death: By herself just a 3/2 with First Strike, which is not bad, but w/b, w/b (effectively WW for us) is at least possible to pay and getting cards back to the board tapped and attacking is definitely powerful, not to mention recurring all of the ETB creatures like Lieutenant, Recruiter, Knight of Autumn, Freebooter and Pontiff.

    Liliana, Heretical Healer: BB is risky. Getting a Planeswalker that is going to make an opponent discard when we may often be hellbent is obviously good vs. mid-range, as is another way to recur threats and disruption.

    Abzan Falconer: Effectively gives a lot of your cards flying, which is really strong, and I like the 2/3 body. The Outlast ability is ok, as it will make itself a flying 3/4.

    Anafenza, the Foremost: If it exiled more than creatures it would be awesome, but maybe that is good enough vs. decks like Dredge and Reanimator. As in Modern, seems like a sideboard card.

    At 2 CMC:
    Auriok Champion could be good, but I don't know if it does enough. Like Paladin en-Vec, nearly impossible for Grixis and UB to get off the battlefield, and obviously lifegain off of creatures ETB is pretty sweet for a 35 creature deck, and it is likely to grow or help friends grow.

    Melira, Sylvok Outcast is one of those sideboard cards that would be great if Infect returned to prominence; just something to keep in mind if it is in your local meta.

    EDIT:
    I have a new card I want to try out.

    Plaguecrafter This seems like a very powerful card. We sac it to itself or sac something worse. In an open board, it kills a planeswalker, but also a blocker. It is also a house against Show and Tell and hexproof creatures and even decent against Infect.

    Sadly, being a 3/2 is really bad, since we can't search it up. However... is this just better than Reflector Mage? RM is the only reason we run Imperial instead of RotG.
    Last edited by redtwister; 10-25-2018 at 12:02 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Andrea Mengucci playing the CiriBarrayar UW Humans list

    I'm not a fan of this list, but it was interesting to watch.

    The reasons for 5c (4c) are pretty clear for me:
    Orzhof Pontiff
    Kitesail Freebooter
    Noble Hierarch
    Horizon Canopy
    Knight of Autumn
    Gaddock Teeg
    Dark Confidant

    Pontiff is a house in a number of matches: any Delver, TNN, Maverick (kills opposing Mom and mana dorks, which is huge to winning), DnT, etc.

    Freebooter is hand disruption, information, a way to steal equipment gotten from a Stoneforge Mystic, and a flyer (so, so good with Thalia's Lieutenant)

    Hierarch is 1) ramp, 2) protection against mana screw/Wasteland. The list with no basics and 4 Hierarch is, IMO, more resilient to mana disruption and still more consistent in allowing you to have the colors you need.

    Horizon Canopy. 'Nuff said!

    Knight is 1) just the best artifact and enchantment hate 2) anti-Burn

    Teeg is the house against a number of decks. For example, Teeg + Prelate on 1 leaves Miracles with Council's Judgment and that is basically it. Teeg + Meddling Mage on Show and Tell is gg versus Sneak and Show. Teeg or Prelate on 4 or Mage on Tendrils of Agony is gg versus ANT/TES game. Teeg also disallows Engineered Explosives. And so on.

    Dark Confidant aka Bob is 1) card advantage on a stick, 2) a deflector of hate from our beaters.

    In each of his losses, in my opinion, the problems caused by the lack of those cards were self-evident.

    HOT TECH NOTE:
    @yosoyez has dropped Bob for 4th Meddling Mage and 4th Horizon Canopy, which is a solid decision because it provides an extra land without exposing us to any more mana flood and the 4 Mage is very handy in certain matches.

    He posted his latest list in the replies after Mengucci's video.

  7. #7
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    I tested this deck pretty extensively against Miracles, something like 20 games, and I don't really think it's favored - your clock is just a little too slow and you're pretty much priced into playing into wraths, which just become enormous blowouts. Basically the fast clocks in this deck (Champion, Thalia's Lieutenant) are dependent on overcommitting. Stuff like Freebooter and Noble Hierarch present very little damage and get swept away in a wave (or become terrible topdecks.) Losing Karakas also gets rid of another form of protection vs control. It's not a 30-70 matchup or anything, you still have tons of really relevant cards, but it's not favored. I suspect it's not really favored vs DnT either, since you're basically playing a mirror without all of the best cards in the mirror. (Though you do get some haymakers like Pontiff.)

    (I still think this deck is pretty good and Eddie is obviously a genius.)

  8. #8

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Hey man, nice to see you.

    Yeah, Eddie really did something fantastic here. I honestly haven't had this much fun in Legacy since bahra came out with RW Imperial Taxes.

    Calling Miracles Good is a stretch. My matches against them do feel considerably better than DnT did. I have also felt much better fighting the "wrath, Planeswalker" move with a follow-up [cards]Plaguecrafter[cards] instead of Reflector Mage. It feels very important to combine turning off Terminus with getting aggressive.

    I like the DnT match post-board especially. Pontiff and Knight of Autumn are very, very good and again, at least in my little bits of playing it, Plagecrafter being a sacrifice effect is quite good.

    Which list have you been running? What else have you tested against?
    Last edited by redtwister; 11-06-2018 at 04:18 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Literally nothing else, most of my testing has been 'watch Eddie stream and try to convince him that Knight of the Reliquary is a bad magic card'.

    Oh the other Miracles blowout is Back to Basics. I don't really think this has a better matchup than DnT does vs Miracles. But against stuff like combo decks, playing 10,000 hatebears is pretty good.

  10. #10
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Seems like everyone is discovering Human in Legacy (or is this because of its popularity at the moment ?)...

    Anyway, I wrote a french primer (years ago) as I was playing Humans (you can use google translation to get some rough ideas of what we were saying).

    Lists might not be far from what the community is playing right now (to some extend).

    http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14241

    The updated list is at the end of the first post.

    And here is another one which did great on a big tournament:

    http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=15190


    I think the real question is full aggro or aggro control ?

    One is going to play vial and a lots of CMC 2 humans, the other is going to play hierarch and a lot of hatebears (while potentially going higher with the curve -> playing CMC4).

    Also through a lot of testing, I found that in an aggro version Safekeeper > MoR.
    Of course you can play both but its "ready" ability as it enters the btf and the fact that it can attack every turn is a big edge over MoR.

    Enjoy.

    Ralf

  11. #11

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Thoughts on Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Based on discussions about Legacy, here is where it is relevant:

    combo decks relying on Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, and LED (Storm, Show and Tell/Omni-Tell, Bomberman) , as technically if you get to turn two, they can't even cast 0 mana spells and they can't cast non-creature spells with a CMC higher than their land count. It actually hoses Omni-Tell, since no mana is spent to cast their fatties. - Gaddock Teeg is arguably nearly as effective, except with Omni-Tell.

    Cloudpost, as they typically want to cast Planeswalkers and All Is Dust with a mana cost much higher than their land count - - Gaddock Teeg is arguably just as effective.

    Miracles, only because they can't cast Terminus until they have six lands - - Gaddock Teeg is arguably better since it stops Jace.

    Burn (Rift Bolt when they only have 2 lands, Fireblast) - Gaddock Teeg stops Fireblast, but not Rift bolt ever.

    Elves - maybe because their land count is usually only a part of their mana - Gaddock Teeg is arguably just better because they can't cast Natural Order or GSZ.

    Lavinia has one major advantage over Teeg: Human. Pumps resolved Champions and TLs, and gets pumped by TLs, and more likely able to be played uncounterable with Cavern.

    I think this card competes with Teeg and the question is, does its Human upside make it just as good as but better than Teeg or is it actually worse than Teeg enough of the time that being Human does not make it better?

  12. #12
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    I think the manabase in humans doesn't support teeg very well.
    -rob

  13. #13
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    Thoughts on Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Based on discussions about Legacy, here is where it is relevant:

    combo decks relying on Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, and LED (Storm, Show and Tell/Omni-Tell, Bomberman) , as technically if you get to turn two, they can't even cast 0 mana spells and they can't cast non-creature spells with a CMC higher than their land count. It actually hoses Omni-Tell, since no mana is spent to cast their fatties. - Gaddock Teeg is arguably nearly as effective, except with Omni-Tell.

    Cloudpost, as they typically want to cast Planeswalkers and All Is Dust with a mana cost much higher than their land count - - Gaddock Teeg is arguably just as effective.

    Miracles, only because they can't cast Terminus until they have six lands - - Gaddock Teeg is arguably better since it stops Jace.

    Burn (Rift Bolt when they only have 2 lands, Fireblast) - Gaddock Teeg stops Fireblast, but not Rift bolt ever.

    Elves - maybe because their land count is usually only a part of their mana - Gaddock Teeg is arguably just better because they can't cast Natural Order or GSZ.

    Lavinia has one major advantage over Teeg: Human. Pumps resolved Champions and TLs, and gets pumped by TLs, and more likely able to be played uncounterable with Cavern.

    I think this card competes with Teeg and the question is, does its Human upside make it just as good as but better than Teeg or is it actually worse than Teeg enough of the time that being Human does not make it better?
    Emrakul cannot be countered.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  14. #14

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Emrakul cannot be countered.
    Yes, but Griselbrand would be, or is Grisy not played in Omni-tell now? I have seen it there, but it does look like a lot of Omni-Tell players are all in on Emrakul now.

  15. #15

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    I think the manabase in humans doesn't support teeg very well.
    Well, let's just say that Teeg and Knight can be rough. Until Lavinia, nothing seemed a possible alternative to Teeg and Knight is just more versatile than the other option for enchantment/artifact hate. If only Knight had been human...

    Again, my question, which may only be answered with enough testing, is whether or not the Human part makes Lavinia better than Teeg, since most of the time Teeg is as good (Terminus, Ant/TES, Sneak Attack, NatOrder, etc.) and possibly slightly better (stops Jace, GSZ, and Engineered Explosives) against most of what we are fighting, and only worse in two ways (not Human with all that implies + doesn't stop spells on the angle of CMC > lands in play).

    I don't like the fact that Lavinia does nothing versus Grixis and makes our Miracles match slightly worse.

  16. #16

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    This is the build I will be playing locally and taking to the Baltimore SCG Open Feb 2-3

    21 LANDS
    4 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Horizon Canopy
    3 Karakas
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    4 Wasteland

    35 CREATURES
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Kitesail Freebooter
    3 Mirran Crusader
    3 Meddling Mage
    2 Phantasmal Image
    2 Imperial Recruiter
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Palace Jailer

    4 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Aether Vial

    SIDEBOARD
    2 Reflector Mage
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Knight of Autumn
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Imperial Recruiter
    1 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Palace Jailer
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant

    Maindeck:
    Mirran Crusader has been a house against control, especially Grixis/4c where it has significantly improved my win rate, but it remains very good against UB Delver/Death's Shadow and fair decks in general. Amazing with Thalia's Lieutenant.

    +1 Karakas, -1 Horizon Canopy - Almost entirely a concession to Reanimator. Might not do enough to merit it and go back to Canopy.

    3/3 Meddling Mage/Kitesail Freeboot - I love both cards, but I don't know if the 2 Phantasmal Images just don't make 4-ofs in this somewhat unnecessary. That said...

    The only card I am unsure of is Phantasmal Image.
    Advantages:
    - Copies opponent's big finishers versus Reanimator, Show and Tell, Lands, even Eldrazi (does not work with "on cast" triggers, however, because it becomes a creature on the battlefield on ETB, which is after the "on cast" trigger.)
    - Makes additional copies of effects of my card, especially Freebooter, Meddling Mage, Pontiff(!), Palace Jailer, Knight of Autumn, Reflector Mage, and Thalia's Lieutenant
    - Sometimes copies something minimal, but relevant, against fair decks, like a Gurmag Angler or, more entertainingly, Leovold.

    Disadvantages:
    - Can only really cast it with mana from Ziggurat and Hierarch or Vial it in (pretty huge limitation)
    - dies to targeting, which a variable impact limitation depending on what you copy. Copy a Thalia's Lieutenant, Knight of Autumn or card where the most important thing is the effect, and who care if it dies. However, if you copy MM or KF, you don't want it to just die!
    - Does not copy on simultaneous entry, like off of Show and Tell.

    Possible Options with 4 slots:
    So I have two slots, currently occupied by Phantasmal Image, that could be occupied by some combination of 1 MM, 1 KF, 1 Horizon Canopy, Reflector Mage, or Sanctum Prelate. I will say, I am very hesitant to increase the number of CMC 3 creatures beyond 2 Recruiter, 1 Pontiff, 2-3 Reflector/Crusader and 1 CMC 4. Part of the amazing strength of this deck is that it is far less forced to choose Vial on 2 or 3 than, say, DnT, which typically now runs 9+ CMC 3 creatures plus on PJ on 4.

    Karakas might go back to Horizon Canopy because Knight is already not easy to cast (though with Crusader, I can at least name Knight and be able to cast one other card)

    3rd Mirran Crusader could become a Reflector Mage. I don't know if I need 3, but from my DnT experience, Mirran Crusader is often so good that seeing them more frequently and having more of them is just gas.

    Sideboard:
    There are only so many spaces, and I like most of what we do, I have only 1 "innovation" which I stole from the Japanese DnT players who have been doing well: Damping Sphere.

    Simply put, Eldrazi Post is a tough match and combo is everywhere. DS provides an answer to both by killing their 'Tron on steroids' gameplan and by acting like a 5th Thalia.

    Some people have trimmed things like Pontiff to add a 2nd Containment Priest and/or a 2nd Sanctum Prelate. These are sound choices if you have not sideboarded your Reflector Mages for Mirran Crusader in the main, but I did that, so two of my slots go to Reflector Mage because it is a great card.

  17. #17
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    @ Redtwister: I like your choice; but your mana base needs to be reworked, IMHO.

    1) Ancient Ziggurat prevents you from casting Vial T1 if it is your only land.
    2) I think you need some amount of basic plains or you accept to concede on Blood moon T1 without vial. I found 3 basics + 4 vial being a good insurance.
    3) I think you need a "catch all" MD or you fold to Ensanring bridge -> the new detention sphere with legs seems nice/Flickerwisp/whatever

    I played this deck early 2016 when it was just a personal brew with a very similar MD you'll have a blast.

    I still prefer a more "aggroish" version but that is a personal choice.

    (My list is in my signature "Rainbow Swat")

  18. #18

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    @ Redtwister: I like your choice; but your mana base needs to be reworked, IMHO.

    1) Ancient Ziggurat prevents you from casting Vial T1 if it is your only land.
    2) I think you need some amount of basic plains or you accept to concede on Blood moon T1 without vial. I found 3 basics + 4 vial being a good insurance.
    3) I think you need a "catch all" MD or you fold to Ensanring bridge -> the new detention sphere with legs seems nice/Flickerwisp/whatever

    I played this deck early 2016 when it was just a personal brew with a very similar MD you'll have a blast.

    I still prefer a more "aggroish" version but that is a personal choice.

    (My list is in my signature "Rainbow Swat")
    I don't disagree that the manabase is risky, but I also think it is unavoidable and I think yosoyez has the right basic setup and I am leary of moving away from it. And yes, I have had to mulligan hands with 2 lands and Vial because both are Ziggy. Feels bad. However, we need to cast 5 colors of humans and we have to get Hierarch out, so I don't exactly see a way around this particular manabase if I want overall consistency in getting out creatures.

    On a "catch-all", I think my issue is that how often am I getting hit with Bridge Game 1? If I am, well, it's probably Mono-R control and that seems like a very hard match pre-board, and maybe post-board too.

    If only the new guy was Human and not Vedalken. I do think this is why Japanese DnT players have started using War Priest of Thune in the main and side.

  19. #19
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    I know that's the price you pay for playing wasteland...

    Tbh, in an aggro deck like this one, I'm not sure wasteland is needed.
    Don't get me wrong, you'll get free wins because of it but how many of these wins would have been one anyway, just a bit less "free".
    And how many bad MUs would you turn into 50/50 with a better manabase ?

    Tough decisions anyway.

    Dark confidant is also too good to dismiss. Especially in this deck.

    I like playing this deck as a swarm one MD. The prison form comes post side.

  20. #20

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Hello Hoomans, for anyone interested, on top of this awesome thread, we have a discord for our favorite 5c tribal deck. https://discord.gg/uJFcaNY.

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