I'm fine with a predetermined banned list to start, but I think Mental Misstep needs to be legal to act as 'policeman'. There needs to be some risk to going all-in.
Hanni had already asked, but are we bound to singleton?
Strawberry Shortcake
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What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
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I say start with your already established list of cards in the first few posts as bans. All of them make a ton of sense. This way if someone is reading through the thread they won't be confused.
So for the first round I support doing this:
A: We could discuss for a few more days and try to decide on a decent banning list.
All cards currently on the banned list, plus:
- Raze
- Force of Will
- Daze
- Thoughtseize
- Duress
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Wasteland
- Ghost Quarter
- Dark Depths
- Dark Ritual
- Show and Tell
- Burning Inquiry
- Laboratory Maniac
- Chancellor of the Annex
- Reanimate
- Trinisphere
That is plenty of restriction already. Busted interactions will become known soon enough.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm not sure I agree with allowing Duress, but Mental Misstep seems fine.
I agree with Force of Will not needing to be banned, and I like the tiebreaker rule.
I'm not sure that Raze is worth being banned either? Wasteland and Ghost Quarter make sense, but Raze costs two resources to deal with one land, which seems fine. There needs to be some sort of balanced way to deal with lands, no?
Nope. Unless a card is restricted for other reasons, all cards may be played four times.
Force of Will is too good. It just is. The extra card isn't all that relevant if you get to stop (almost) anything.
Duress is on there because it's not fun, and because Seize and Inquisition are also on there. Besides, we don't need it.
Raze we might be able to allow back in, but it does completely screw almost every slow strategy, which is sad.
What's an oppressive 4-card combo with FoW?
FoW
Blue Card
Presumably a land
A one-mana threat?
Either they counter your threat and can't protect theirs from your removal (and lose because they paid 1 life), or they protect their threat and have to hope it's bigger than yours...
Duress can only take a card that is enabling something broken. Lands and creatures are pretty fair.
The storage lands seem really broken in this format.
Cavern Harpy
Parasitic Strix
Aluren
Hollow Trees/Rushwood Grove
Dwarven Hold/Mercadian Bazaar
Sneak Attack
Emrakul
Chancellor of the Annex
1 more:
Icatian Store/ Fountain of Cho
Maze of Ith
Chancellor of the Annex
Misstep
Burning Inquiry seems busted too
Mountain
Burning Inquiry
Chancellor of the Annex
Memnite/Rootwalla or any other 0 mana 1/1
e: didn't realize it was already banned.
I think if burning Inquiry is out it's a little easier to brew. I'd also consider banning chalice, since this format is even more defined by 0-drops (lotus petal) and 1-drops; meaning it insta-gibs most plays; which is mostly viable because you banned wasteland. There are counters to the City/Chalice decks however without wasteland:
Damping Sphere
Crystal Vein
2 Mishra's Factory
beats the Nether Shadow decks by being able to block and attack through 2/2s (play CV first, don't play sphere, play factorys as you go after that so that you can't lose a factory)
beats Hanni's chalice OTP and OTD by deterministically keeping TKS off the table and just attacking with a 2/2
I think it beats the Kird Ape deck: If they raze first, they can't bolt a factory > Kird ape. If they Bolt first, you can make Factory a 4/4 in response, trading with ape. No line can beat both factories.
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Another reasonable one is
Leyline of Vitality
Lotus Petal
Sheltered Valley
Bitterblossom
which chumps anything while slowly gaining life, minus T1 land destruction; but loses to the big tramplers. Loses OTP to Hanni's chalice though (as do all Lotus petal or 1-drop strategies..), I think it beats the Damping Sphere deck by waiting until you have 2-3 tokens, and just chumping every turn while flying in a couple damager per turn.
if you unban wasteland and swap Valley for Wasteland however it draw's Hanni's deck OTD and beats Heavyweights in either direction; while also beating the Kird-Ape deck, other blossom decks, (1/2s, life is static) and can probably race tramplers who are ~4/4 or so.
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If chalice was banned the new Retofitter foundry + factories + (something) would be pretty difficult to beat. It'd have the benefits of Factories, the benefits of unlimited tokens, and could make 4/4s if games went long. If wasteland was unbanned, I think it can also beat Hanni's and Heavyweights
Retrofitter Foundry
Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
_____
Main findings being that Factory is pretty good; getting under chalice and beating most things. You usually want 2 though so you can attack as a 3/3 to break ties or block as a 4/4, as well as absorb multiple removal spells. Token producers seem good as long as you can shut off high-mana decks via Sphere or Wasteland; but you
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Keeping wasteland/ gq banned really makes maze of ith an issue
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