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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #6481

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "T2 combo"

    1. Asthereal (TO): Azorius Chancery, Faerie Conclave, Energy Field, Detention Sphere
    Curses foiled again! 0-6

    2. dte: Irrigation ditch, Sandwurm convergence, Show and tell, Sheltered valley
    Cruel stare 2-2

    3. alphastryk: Remote Farm, Darkslick Shores, Lingering Souls, Windfall
    Discard 3-3

    4. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Island, Show and Tell, Cruel Reality
    That's me, almost smashing with Dragons but Cruel instead

    5. RoosterCocoa: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Remote Farm, Show and Tell, Form of the Dragon
    Cursed 6-0

    6. jfb1337: Forbidding Watchtower, The Wandering Emperor, Prismatic Ending, Saltcrusted Steppe
    Cursed 6-0

    7. silkster: Ebon Stronghold, Vault of the Archangel, Agonizing Remorse, Black Market Connections
    Discard 3-3

    8. Phasmoid: Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar, Red Sun's Zenith, Crackle with Power
    Cursed 6-0

    9. FTW: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Darksteel Citadel, Convincing Mirage, The Blackstaff of Waterdeep
    LD 3-3

    10. maxx!: Darkmoss Bridge, Dunes of the Dead, Rain of Filth, Dark Deal
    Discard 3-3

    11. Reeplcheep: Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace, Rustvale Bridge
    Cursed 6-0

    Total: 38 points

  2. #6482

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Me: 7. silkster: Ebon Stronghold, Vault of the Archangel, Agonizing Remorse, Black Market Connections

    ...

    8. Phasmoid: Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar, Red Sun's Zenith, Crackle with Power WW*

    ...

    *On the draw:
    Bazaar tapped; Stronghold.
    B1, BT; Vault, BMC.
    B2, B1; 3/2, treasure, Remorse on Crackle (20-15).
    Kill mercenary, B0, B0; 3/2 (20-12).
    B1, B1; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (17-9).
    B2, B2; 2 mercenaries, 2 attack (1 treasure), (11-8). If you don't kill a mercenary, you can go B3,B3 and Zenith for 5, which isn't enough, so
    Kill mercenary, B1, B0; new mercenary, 1 attacks (8-5)
    B2,B1; new treasure, 2 attack (2-4).
    Kill one mercenary, and the other gets in. Or shoot me for 2 and I make a treasure and win on 1.
    This matchup is complicated. ​ I wrote code for it, and my code reports that what you're trying doesn't win for you,
    since I wait at least 1 more turn before I cast RSZ. ​ I've so far barely looked into its output, but I imagine the idea is that I
    only tap 1 land each time I cast RSZ, so the other still gets a storage counter. ​ This would let me cast 2 times each 4 turns.
    My code is not yet accounting for your ability to get Lifelink, but even so, if you win both
    then either there's a bug in my code or the win is harder than the line you gave.

  3. #6483
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal's scores for round how did I forget about Show and Tell and still manage to play incredible hate for it?!

    1. Asthereal (TO): Azorius Chancery, Faerie Conclave, Energy Field, Detention Sphere <-me
    2. dte: Irrigation ditch, Sandwurm convergence, Show and tell, Sheltered valley WW
    3. alphastryk: Remote Farm, Darkslick Shores, Lingering Souls, Windfall LL
    4. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Island, Show and Tell, Cruel Reality WW
    5. RoosterCocoa: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Remote Farm, Show and Tell, Form of the Dragon WW
    6. jfb1337: Forbidding Watchtower, The Wandering Emperor, Prismatic Ending, Saltcrusted Steppe LL
    Ending takes out Energy Field, Sphere takes out the walker but it still nets you a 2/2, which I can then trade for Conclave, but then I die to the Watchtower.
    7. silkster: Ebon Stronghold, Vault of the Archangel, Agonizing Remorse, Black Market Connections WW
    Remorse takes Energy Field. EDIT: I missed the idea of racing BMC as it costs life. If I allow you to make two 3/2 guys and then Sphere both of them, I am able to race. Math below.
    8. Phasmoid: Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar, Red Sun's Zenith, Crackle with Power WW
    Energy Field stops your deck and the sorcery speed of your spells means Conclave is safe and gets the win.
    9. FTW: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Darksteel Citadel, Convincing Mirage, The Blackstaff of Waterdeep DD
    Your land hate goes on the Chancery, stopping Sphere and Conclave. Energy Field stops your threat and we draw.
    10. maxx!: Darkmoss Bridge, Dunes of the Dead, Rain of Filth, Dark Deal LL
    11. Reeplcheep: Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace, Rustvale Bridge WW

    Total: 38 points


    Against silk:
    s: Strongold
    A: Conclave
    s: Vault, Remorse the Energy Field
    A: Chancery, bounce Conclave
    s: BMC, precombat make 3/2, s=17
    A: Conclave
    s: Make 3/2, s=14, attack, A=17
    A: Sphere, exile both guys
    s: Make 3/2, s=11
    A: Attack, s=9
    s: Make 3/2, s=8, attack, A=14
    A: Attack, s=6
    s: a>Make 3/2, s=3, attack, A=8 / A attacks, s=1 and then you die to BMC
    b> Make treasure, s=5, attack, A=8 / A attacks, s=3 / Make treasure, s=2, attack, A=2 / A attacks, s dies.

    PS. There is a thing: Gatherer tells us BMC is not playable in any format, which could be extended to our little competition of chaos, as all cards are banned that "were never printed as playables in competitive Magic".
    But that's a bit vague, and I feel like we could make an exception and allow this card anyway. Anyone opposed to this?
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  4. #6484

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    PS. There is a thing: Gatherer tells us BMC is not playable in any format, which could be extended to our little competition of chaos, as all cards are banned that "were never printed as playables in competitive Magic".
    But that's a bit vague, and I feel like we could make an exception and allow this card anyway. Anyone opposed to this?
    I think it could be allowed for this time only (it is very shitty for Silk otherwise), but kept as banned for the future?
    I thought that it was a good threat that I had missed, but I only looked for cards legal in vintage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    This matchup is complicated. ​ I wrote code for it, and my code reports that what you're trying doesn't win for you,
    since I wait at least 1 more turn before I cast RSZ. ​ I've so far barely looked into its output, but I imagine the idea is that I
    only tap 1 land each time I cast RSZ, so the other still gets a storage counter. ​ This would let me cast 2 times each 4 turns.
    My code is not yet accounting for your ability to get Lifelink, but even so, if you win both
    then either there's a bug in my code or the win is harder than the line you gave.

    So, it would make:

    Bazaar tapped; Stronghold.
    B1, BT; Vault, BMC.
    B2, B1; 3/2, treasure, Remorse on Crackle (20-15).
    B3, B2; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (17-12).
    B0, B3, kill a mercenary; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (14-9).
    B1, B0, kill a mercenary; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (11-6).
    B2, B1, 3 mercenaries, 2 attack (5-3)
    ==> Silk wins on 1 life?

  5. #6485

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    That seems like a mistake in gatherer. The set CLB ought to be legal in commander/legacy/vintage; as it's been released for a while now. Indeed cards from the set are playable on mtgo.

  6. #6486

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    9. FTW: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Darksteel Citadel, Convincing Mirage, The Blackstaff of Waterdeep

    6. jfb1337: I turn your Steppe into a Swamp. You can't make a threat, but you can ending my Staff. DD 2-2
    Actually, you want to turn my steppe into a plains; that way I can't ending the mirage.

  7. #6487

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    That seems like a mistake in gatherer. The set CLB ought to be legal in commander/legacy/vintage; as it's been released for a while now. Indeed cards from the set are playable on mtgo.
    I don't know what normally determines set legality, so I can't comment on the "should" part, but Scryfall

    lists Black Market Connections as legal in those 3 formats
    and
    is what I use (rather than gatherer) to make my decks

    , ​ so I am in favor of allowing BMC this time even if this is not actually a mistake in gatherer.



    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    So, it would make:

    Bazaar tapped; Stronghold.
    B1, BT; Vault, BMC.
    B2, B1; 3/2, treasure, Remorse on Crackle (20-15).
    B3, B2; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (17-12).
    ...

    My code is reporting that I should prioritize storing mana, to threaten a large RSZ to the face.
    However, I now suspect that I will lose to ​ ​ ​ Vault ​ + ​ the Treasures ​ ​ ​ giving lifelink.

    B3, B2; 2 mercenaries, 1 attacks (17-12).
    B4, B3
    If silkster creates another Mercenary, then I build yet again, to ​ B5,B4 . ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ In that case, silkster deals only ​ (2+3)*3 = 15
    damage before losing to ​ ​ ​ 3 from creating that Mercenary ​ + ​ 1 from creating a Treasure ​ + ​ 8 from RSZ to the face ​ ​ .
    Thus silkster doesn't, so
    ; 1 treasure, 2 attack (11-11).
    B(5,0 or 1,4), kill a Mercenary
    Two attacks would still not be for lethal, so if silkster creates a Mercenary now, then I build to cast RSZ to the face with X=6.
    That plus ​ ​ ​ 3 from creating the Mercenary ​ + ​ 2 from the 2 Treasures, since BMC happens _before_ combat
    would be just barely enough for me ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ Thus silkster doesn't, so
    ; 2 treasures, Mercenary attacks (8-10).
    B(6,1 or 2,5)
    If silkster creates a Mercenary, then silkster loses to
    3 from creating that Mercenary ​ + ​ 6 from RSZ to the face ​ + ​ 1 from a Treasure
    with me taking at most 3 damage, so instead
    ; 3 treasures, Mercenary attacks (5-9).

    Tomorrow I will update my code to account for the Treasures and potential lifelink.

  8. #6488
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    I don't know what normally determines set legality, so I can't comment on the "should" part, but Scryfall lists Black Market Connections as legal in those 3 formats
    and
    is what I use (rather than gatherer) to make my decks

    , ​ so I am in favor of allowing BMC this time even if this is not actually a mistake in gatherer.
    Excellent. Four in favour, none against, and two good arguments posted in favour.
    I'm calling it: Black Market Connections is accepted as legal (and will now get banned, if the scores remain as is).
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  9. #6489

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    PS. There is a thing: Gatherer tells us BMC is not playable in any format, which could be extended to our little competition of chaos, as all cards are banned that "were never printed as playables in competitive Magic".
    But that's a bit vague, and I feel like we could make an exception and allow this card anyway. Anyone opposed to this?
    Weird. I saw the discussion and I'm glad no one is calling for the illegality of a card that Scryfall says is legacy/vintage/commander playable. When I saw BMC a few weeks ago, I actually wondered whether it was legal and filed it away as maybe being useful in a few rounds. I actually thought about asking whether the new set was allowed, but then Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes got played from the same set and no one batted an eye, so I figured the whole set (minus creatures) was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    This matchup is complicated. ​ I wrote code for it, and my code reports that what you're trying doesn't win for you,
    since I wait at least 1 more turn before I cast RSZ. ​ I've so far barely looked into its output, but I imagine the idea is that I
    only tap 1 land each time I cast RSZ, so the other still gets a storage counter. ​
    Oh yeah, I missed that line. Not sure then.

  10. #6490

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    5. RoosterCocoa: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Remote Farm, Show and Tell, Form of the Dragon

    1. Asthereal (TO): Azorius Chancery, Faerie Conclave, Energy Field, Detention Sphere
    Detention Sphere takes Form of the Dragon. LL

    2. dte: Irrigation ditch, Sandwurm convergence, Show and tell, Sheltered valley
    The sandwurms can't attack me. WW

    3. alphastryk: Remote Farm, Darkslick Shores, Lingering Souls, Windfall
    You can't beat Form of the Dragon, but I can't do anything about discard. WL

    4. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Island, Show and Tell, Cruel Reality
    My hard counter. LL

    6. jfb1337: Forbidding Watchtower, The Wandering Emperor, Prismatic Ending, Saltcrusted Steppe
    You can't attack me or deal with my enchantment. WW

    7. silkster: Ebon Stronghold, Vault of the Archangel, Agonizing Remorse, Black Market Connections
    You can't beat Form of the Dragon, but I can't do anything about discard. WL

    8. Phasmoid: Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar, Red Sun's Zenith, Crackle with Power
    Having only 5 life comes with downsides. LL

    9. FTW: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Darksteel Citadel, Convincing Mirage, The Blackstaff of Waterdeep
    You can't beat Form of the Dragon, but I need my lands. WL

    10. maxx!: Darkmoss Bridge, Dunes of the Dead, Rain of Filth, Dark Deal
    You can't beat Form of the Dragon, but I can't do anything about discard. WL

    11. Reeplcheep: Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace, Rustvale Bridge
    The giants can't attack through Form of the Dragon. WW

    10W 0D 10L = 30

    It seems I chose the worst payoff for Show and Tell.

  11. #6491

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    8. me: ​ ​ ​ Mercadian Bazaar ​ , ​ Mercadian Bazaar ​ , ​ Red Sun's Zenith ​ , ​ Crackle with Power




    1. Asthereal (TO): Azorius Chancery, Faerie Conclave, Energy Field, Detention Sphere ​ LL 0-6
    neither of my spells are instants

    2. dte: Irrigation ditch, Sandwurm convergence, Show and tell, Sheltered valley ​ LL 0-6
    too many Wurms for me


    3. alphastryk: Remote Farm, Darkslick Shores, Lingering Souls, Windfall ​ LL 0-6

    Even if you gave me time to start casting RSZ with X=0, that wouldn't
    help me, since you could just cast Lingering Souls from your hand.


    4. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Island, Show and Tell, Cruel Reality ​ LL 0-6
    The Cruel Reality is that I lose this.


    5. RoosterCocoa: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Remote Farm, Show and Tell, Form of the Dragon ​ WW 6-0

    I you take the Form of a Dragon, then I Crackle with X=1 on T5,
    which is just fast-enough. ​ Otherwise, I wait and then Crackle with X=4.


    6. jfb1337: Forbidding Watchtower, The Wandering Emperor, Prismatic Ending, Saltcrusted Steppe ​ WW 6-0

    Prismatic Ending is dead against me, and you can't cast Emperor before T6, so you can't use her more
    than twice before I can target her on my T7. ​ That turn, I Crackle with X=2, leaving you with just 1 or 2
    lands and 10 or 12 life, and me with 1 still stored. ​ Since any tokens you made had vigilance, the only way
    you can have more than 10 life is by exiling Watchtower. ​ That would leave you locked out, letting me take
    however long I need to cast RSZ for lethal. ​ Thus, assume you are at 10 life. ​ Since I still have 1 stored,
    I would cast RSZ for lethal on T13. ​ You get at most 1 Samurai attack, so the best Emperor's loyalty
    abilities can achiever for you is putting two +1/+1 counters on Watchtower. ​ ​ ​ However, Watchtower
    can't attack faster than doing so on turns ​ 4,7,10,13 , ​ so I do survive to cast RSZ for the win.



    7. silkster: Ebon Stronghold, Vault of the Archangel, Agonizing Remorse, Black Market Connections ​ ?L ?-?


    When I am OTD, I lose to ​ ​ T2 BMC ​ ,
    T3 ​ Mercenary + Treasure + Agonizing Remorse exiling Crackle
    , ​ ​ ​ as verified by the Python 3 code at ​ https://paste.ee/p/goLE0 ,
    which uses approximately ​ 1 GB ​ of memory.

    When I am OTP, I beat ​ ​ ​ T2 BMC ​ + ​ T3 exile Crackle ​ ,
    although silkster might have something better than that.



    8. Phasmoid: Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar, Red Sun's Zenith, Crackle with Power
    This is me.

    9. FTW: Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, Darksteel Citadel, Convincing Mirage, The Blackstaff of Waterdeep ​ LL 0-6
    The Walking Statue is Indestructible and faster than me, so I lose even without being Convinced by a Mirage.

    10. maxx!: Darkmoss Bridge, Dunes of the Dead, Rain of Filth, Dark Deal ​ LL 0-6
    Zombie smash

    11. Reeplcheep: Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan, Angel's Grace, Rustvale Bridge ​ LL 0-6
    I can't deal more than 3 damage before T5, which is too late for me.




    7 LL ​ + ​ 1 ?L ​ + ​ 2 WW ​ ​ ​ = ​ ​ ​ at least 12 points ​ , ​ at most 15 points

    I am still working on ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ OTP me ​ vs ​ silkster OTD ​ ​ ​ .

  12. #6492

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Note that, if nothing else changes in silkster's results, then ​ ​ ​ OTP me ​ vs ​ silkster OTD ​ ​ ​ _will_ affect the bannings.
    With that in mind, we should decide how we will, going forward, handle inconsistency from WotC on card legality.

    (https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...tes-2020-11-06
    vs the gatherer entry ​ , ​ ​ ​ which could happen again even if BMC gets banned this round)

    My preference is that we go with Scryfall, subject to this being changed if,
    far-enough ahead of a round-start, someone shows that WotC resolved its inconsistency.

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