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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #6561

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
    Me, playing what I considered the best threat and best disrupt from last round. Also LD vs all lands I imagined would be played.

    ...

    8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
    6-0, per infinite turns rule in 4CB. I so much tried to make time vault work!
    26
    I haven't tried working this out, but your explanation makes me
    suspect that you're missing the Loops rule from this thread's OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Loops

    ...

    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.


    Examples:
    ...
    - If one player has a Stormscape Apprentice in play, with mana to activate it, and the other player has a Rotting Regisaur in play, eternally tapping the Regisaur in order to not die to it would be a loop across multiple turns.
    This loop is allowed in 4CB and will lead to a draw (unless there are other cards that can influence this loop, or otherwise change the outcome of the game).

  2. #6562

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault

    1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
    You make me discard and I am slow. LL

    2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
    You make me discard and I am slow. LL

    3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
    I can take infinite turns but not win, I'm not sure whether that means we draw or I lose.

    4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
    Even if I force you to cast Tremble before I play a land I still lose. LL

    5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
    You only make me discard on my fourth turn, by which point I have all of my cards in play and combo off. WW

    6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
    You destroy my artifacts. LL

    7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
    If you play Hypergenesis, you put my combo in play for me. WW

    9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
    I just store some extra counters and pay for Spell Pierce, then combo. WW

    10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
    You don't disrupt my combo. WW

    11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
    You have discard. LL

    8W 0D 10L 2?

    I was all set to play this but with a red storage land and Keldon Megaliths, but then the last red storage land got banned after last round and I felt this was too cool not to play so I went with a definitely worse version.

  3. #6563

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa View Post
    8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault

    3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
    I can take infinite turns but not win, I'm not sure whether that means we draw or I lose.
    I believe we ruled that you couldn't create the infinite drawing loop yourself. So Time Warp that has Epic will not draw the game, but Capture of Jingzhou with Epic does draw the game. The reason was that otherwise you could claim that Basalt Monolith and [cards]Nomads en-Kor[cards] each draw the game by themselves. I'm still not 100% clear on the rules though. I think passing the turn back is important.


    Goblin Slinger against Soulmender is a draw, but Curse of Pierced Heart beats Soulmender?

    Hill Giant against Wall of Stone is a draw, but Bloodrock Cyclops beats Wall of Stone??


    Backbuild: I love the idea of requiring a deck to beat all of the previous winners rather than having any banlist, but I think it will be way too hard to establish legality of decks. I'm not sure of the best way to make a backbuild season, but I think some amount of banning is required.

    Similar to Backbuild, we could also play a season where each deck is required to lose to certain baseline decks.

  4. #6564

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    The recent-ish discussion about loops was on pages ​ 250,251,252,253 . ​ ​ ​ According to the rule that established, neither Basalt Monolith
    nor Nomads en-Kor draw the game by themselves, but silkster's other 4 examples are draws, since those loops are across multiple turns.
    (That said, I would prefer that for subsequent seasons, the rule be changed to match what silkster just described.)
    Last edited by Phasmoid; 07-17-2022 at 03:06 PM. Reason: added comment to my post

  5. #6565

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    The MTR rules for loops are:
    - no players involved in maintining the loop = draw
    - one player involved = must end
    - two+ players involved, across single turn = must end
    - two+ players involved, across multiple turns = draw

    Though these can create unintuitive situations in CB like silkster mentioned. Another situation is that you wouldn't be able to rishadan port a land every turn for a draw. Which I assume is why we have different rules; of single turn = must end and multiple turns = draw.

    If we wanted to avoid a player being able to take infinite turns without winning like the MTR rules do, we could add "a loop across multiple turns taken by the same player must end".

  6. #6566
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    The MTR rules for loops are:
    - no players involved in maintining the loop = draw
    - one player involved = must end
    - two+ players involved, across single turn = must end
    - two+ players involved, across multiple turns = draw

    Though these can create unintuitive situations in CB like silkster mentioned. Another situation is that you wouldn't be able to rishadan port a land every turn for a draw. Which I assume is why we have different rules; of single turn = must end and multiple turns = draw.

    If we wanted to avoid a player being able to take infinite turns without winning like the MTR rules do, we could add "a loop across multiple turns taken by the same player must end".
    I think we can just take the MTR rules then?
    It seems clear enough.

    And so we draw with Rooster, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Backbuild: I love the idea of requiring a deck to beat all of the previous winners rather than having any banlist, but I think it will be way too hard to establish legality of decks. I'm not sure of the best way to make a backbuild season, but I think some amount of banning is required.
    I would really like that (having to beat all precedent winning decks) as well, but it may prove a nightmare to organise, so I wouldn't do it. First I thought having to beat two decks among the banned ones of previous round, and then realized it would be complex enough to organize that I wouldn't do it. If you would want to, go for it!

    But overall there is support for a backbuild season, as you're the sixth saying you would enjoy it.

    So I would propose that I organise a 8-rounds one, keeping the principle that everyone chooses which decks it tries to beat among the top 3 (all decks scoring >3 are banned each round), and then after round 4 we see if it works or if any changes are needed?

    If that works, when would you all see it started - and by that I mean the first deadline fixed (as it is a bit of Summer break right now)?

  7. #6567
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal's scores for the final round where I again had no inspiration and stole a decent looking deck from last round:

    1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake <-me
    2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel WD
    OTP I get two guys, and make sure you only have one: Haven-Scatter, you as well, then Marsh and Rake you, forcing you to discard the Urborg and Tendrils, so you can't cast Chatter a second time. I get to attack with both, with Pendelhaven up for protection. One will get through. If you let both through and go for the backswing, I'll hit for 3 a turn and you for 2, so I win that race. But you can't stop both huys, so I'll win this.
    OTD you can stop me from getting a second guy, but you have to sac one of your own to do so, so either we both have 2 guys, or we both have 1, and we get stuck regardless.
    3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga WL
    OTP I get to discard your stuff and win. OTD you get your deck going which I can't defeat.
    4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble WD
    OTP I get to discard your stuff and win. OTD you get your deck going which draws agaisnt my one token.
    5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica LL
    You discard both enchantments to my Rake, should I cast that. Elspeth's Nightmare comes back and kills my guys one by one.
    6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing LL
    EDIT: You can activate Seal of Fire at the end of my turn, and immediately put it on the bottom of your library. This forces me to use Haven, but then you untap, draw Seal, recast it and immediately use it to kill my token.
    You can do this for all my guys well before I get to kill you.
    7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God WL
    OTP I get to discard your stuff and win. OTD you get your deck going which I can't defeat.
    8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault WW
    EDIT: I get to discard Time Vault regardless, as your land is slow. But you still get to keep land+land. You can make one 2/2 guy, but Pendelhaven will defend against it and I race you.
    9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce WL
    OTP I get to go Pendelhaven>Chatter, keep Haven up to protect my token and race you. OTD you get to keep up Spell Piece and do everything at instant speed, which I don't think I can handle.
    10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict WL
    OTP I get to discard your stuff and win. OTD you get your deck going which I can't defeat.
    11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches WL
    OTP I get to discard your stuff and win. OTD you get your deck going which I can't defeat.

    Total: 29 points


    Against jfb, OTP:
    A: Haven > Chatter
    j: Hall
    A: Marsh, flashback Chatter, attack, j=19
    j: Garisson, bounce Hall
    A: Attack, j=17, keep Pendelhaven up for defence against Seal
    j: Play Seal of Fire
    A: From here I just attack and keep Haven up to defend agaisnt Seal of Fire and win the race.

    Against jfb OTD:
    j: Hall
    A: Haven > Chatter
    j: Garisson, bounce Hall
    A: play Marsh, attack, j=19
    j: Hall, cast Seal, wait
    A: Attack, j=18, EOT use Seal on me A=18, this would win you the race, so I'll do a thing next turn.
    j: Use Hall, retrieve Seal, draw Seal
    A: Attack, j=17, play Chatter again for a second 1/1 token.
    j: cast Seal again. You now have to kill one squirrel, or you'll lose the race (as you can only use Sea once every two turns) AND I'll untap and be able to defend my guys with Pendelhaven again.
    A: Attack, use Pendelhaven, j=15
    j: retrieve Seal, draw Seal
    A: Attack, j=14
    j: Cast Seal, but I'm still at 18, so I'll win this race with 1 damage per turn against your 2 damage every 2 turns.
    WW for me.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 07-19-2022 at 03:38 AM.
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  8. #6568
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I think we can just take the MTR rules then?
    It seems clear enough.

    And so we draw with Rooster, right?
    Yes. Time Vault is a loop across turns, which is allowed to happen indefinitely according to our current rules, so Time Vault+Voltaic Key can be used to force a draw.
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  9. #6569
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing WW
    This one's different, because your kill spell is a lot worse. I make one token and keep up Haven. I attack every turn. If you Seal of Fire my guy, I Pendelhaven in response, and you can only Seal once every two turns, so the race is on. You can Seal my head once every two turns, but my squirrel attacks for 1 every 1 turn. I can slow you down a turn by casting Chatter from the yard for a second token, which you have to Seal or you lose the race. Math below.
    I get the opposite result.

    J: Cast Seal of Fire
    A: Attack with 1/1 (can't use Pendelhaven on attack). J does nothing.

    J: Untap all lands and do nothing.
    A: Attack with 1/1
    After combat, Seal of Fire on 1/1.
    Tap Pendelhaven to save it.
    J taps out to activate Hall, putting Seal on top of library

    J: Untap lands. Draw Seal. Cast Seal & sacrifice to kill 1/1 token (A is tapped out)

    That should kill both 1/1 tokens before they can deal 20 damage. Then Seal of Fire wins.


    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I think we can just take the MTR rules then?
    It seems clear enough.

    And so we draw with Rooster, right?
    That makes sense to me. Most 4CB draws are multi-turn infinite loops where one player could choose an action to end it.

    In the simplest case, a prison card like Island Sanctuary doesn't even work unless you allow the player to keep choosing to use it.
    Rishadan Port too.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-18-2022 at 01:00 PM.

  10. #6570

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Final Round"

    1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
    Discard 3-3

    2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
    Discard 3-3

    3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
    Face the verdict! 6-0

    4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
    LD 1-4

    5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
    Omen 3-3

    6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
    Seal 0-6

    7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
    Stare 2-2

    8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
    Combo 0-6

    9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
    Counter 0-6

    10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
    That's me on nonGoblin combo!

    11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
    Discard 3-3

    Total: 21 points

  11. #6571

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Under the current rules, it's definitely a draw between dte and rooster.

    Under the MTR rules, you can't take infinite turns with no wincon; as that is a loop sustained by a single player.

    Also under the MTR rules, rishaden port and island sancturary don't work if only one player is making any choices; and a wall can only indefinitely block when attacking was a choice.
    IMO these situations are counterintuitive in the context of nCB; a format that the MTR wasn't written with in mind and that commonly creates situations that occur extremely rarely in normal magic.
    So I like keeping our current rules. They could possibly be amended (for future rounds) to prevent taking infinite turns with no wincon, but I don't mind either way on that.

  12. #6572
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I get the opposite result.

    J: Cast Seal of Fire
    A: Attack with 1/1 (can't use Pendelhaven on attack). J does nothing.

    J: Untap all lands and do nothing.
    A: Attack with 1/1
    After combat, Seal of Fire on 1/1.
    Tap Pendelhaven to save it.
    J taps out to activate Hall, putting Seal on top of library

    J: Untap lands. Draw Seal. Cast Seal & sacrifice to kill 1/1 token (A is tapped out)

    That should kill both 1/1 tokens before they can deal 20 damage. Then Seal of Fire wins.
    Ah right, he can use Seal AND get it back in the same turn, then untap, draw and cast it again. Good point. I'll adjust scores.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 07-19-2022 at 03:36 AM.
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  13. #6573
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb1337 View Post
    Also under the MTR rules, rishaden port and island sancturary don't work if only one player is making any choices; and a wall can only indefinitely block when attacking was a choice.
    IMO these situations are counterintuitive in the context of nCB; a format that the MTR wasn't written with in mind and that commonly creates situations that occur extremely rarely in normal magic.
    So I like keeping our current rules. They could possibly be amended (for future rounds) to prevent taking infinite turns with no wincon, but I don't mind either way on that.
    Agree. In this format too many defensive cards don't work at all if you don't allow infinite loops sustained by 1 player. Or what about when you draw by "do nothing"? You should not be forced to eventually play something and lose. Draws are supposed to be a common outcome when you can neutralize the opponent's threat but fail to win. So we must differ from the MTR rules.

    The spirit of "stalemate" from Chess makes sense here. If neither player can make progress (unless you force them to make a bad choice they don't have to make), it's a draw.

    We could make a special exception for infinite turns. For example, we could allow multi-turn loops when both players get turns but require optional loops to end if only one player gets turns (sorry Chronatog+Stasis). But I think the last time we discussed it we decided to allow infinite turns.

  14. #6574

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Or what about when you draw by "do nothing"?
    My understanding is that that's ​ ​ ​ declining to take an action ​ ,
    rather than ​ ​ ​ taking an action ​ , ​ ​ ​ so still results in a draw under the MTR.

  15. #6575

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Mtr 4.4:
    loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue indefinitely. if all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop.

  16. #6576
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Agree. In this format too many defensive cards don't work at all if you don't allow infinite loops sustained by 1 player. Or what about when you draw by "do nothing"? You should not be forced to eventually play something and lose. Draws are supposed to be a common outcome when you can neutralize the opponent's threat but fail to win. So we must differ from the MTR rules.

    The spirit of "stalemate" from Chess makes sense here. If neither player can make progress (unless you force them to make a bad choice they don't have to make), it's a draw.

    We could make a special exception for infinite turns. For example, we could allow multi-turn loops when both players get turns but require optional loops to end if only one player gets turns (sorry Chronatog+Stasis). But I think the last time we discussed it we decided to allow infinite turns.
    This is correct. Besides, we added rules for loops to the 4CB rule book in the first post. I can't deviate from that now. That wouldn't be fair. And those rules allow for this Time Vault loop into a draw.

    Anyway, it doesn't look like it makes a difference for the season. I think we can call it: dte takes the crown again. Congrats!
    Last edited by Asthereal; 07-19-2022 at 05:58 AM.
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  17. #6577
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Okay guys, that's it. Season 12 has come to a close.

    Standings for the final round:
    1. FTW: 40 - 4
    2. jfb1337: 36 - 3,6
    3. Phasmoid: 34 - 3,4
    4. Asthereal (TO): 29 - 2,9
    5. dte: 28 - 2,8
    6. Reeplcheep: 27 - 2,7
    7. alphastryk: 26 - 2,6
    7. silkster: 26 - 2,6
    7. RoosterCocoa: 26 - 2,6
    10. maxx!: 22 - 2,2
    11. GoblinSmashmaster: 21 - 2,1

    Which leads to these final standings for the season:
    1. dte: 53 <-congrats on winning yet another season!
    2. silkster: 50
    3. FTW: 49,5
    4. RoosterCocoa: 45,5
    5. maxx!: 44,9
    6. Asthereal (TO): 42,7
    7. Reeplcheep: 41,7
    8. GoblinSmashmaster: 36,4
    9. alphastryk: 36,1
    10. Phasmoid: 34,7
    11. jfb1337: 14,3
    12. Nasst: 6,1

    And for the record, these are the final bannings:
    Boros Garrison
    Castigate
    Curse of Leeches
    Dwarven Ruins
    Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
    Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    Ruins of Trokair
    Seal of Cleansing
    Seal of Fire
    Tremble

    Season 13 will be organized by another 4CB enthusiast, and will go live in a new thread.
    (Thankfully, as the first post has been under max character pressure for a while now.)

    Thanks to everyone who participated in these 12 seasons of our little competition of chaos!
    Under my "rule" we've done nearly everything I could think of for this format, and I enjoyed the heck out of it.
    But my life has become busier, and I haven't been able to give this competition the time and attention it deserves.
    It's time to pass on the torch. So keep an eye on the forum for a new thread with a new season, in new but I'm sure equally capable hands!
    Last edited by Asthereal; 07-19-2022 at 06:00 AM.
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  18. #6578

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Thanks again Athereal for creating the biggest, most active, and most fun thread on the source.

  19. #6579
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Thanks again Athereal for creating the biggest, most active, and most fun thread on the source.
    Absolutely! thanks for taking the time to organize this week in and week out

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Thanks a lot Asthereal, these seasons were an absolute blast for me :)

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