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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #4981
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I keep forgetting that restriction on FoN, thanks for walking through it y'all

  2. #4982

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed

    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    OTP I kill you. OTD you can make as many thopters and gain as much life as you want, but eventually you pass the turn. You can pass the turn with Opal untapped though, which is pretty big. I can make as many Myr as I want, but as soon as I move to combat you tap Opal to make more Thopters and gain more life. 3-3

    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    See above. 3-3

    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    OTP I kill you. OTD you stick Energy Field and I can't beat that. 3-3

    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    Lose to Foil. 0-6

    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry
    Welding Jar doesn't save you the same way Mox Opal would. OTD you can make as many Thopters and gain as much life as you want, but eventually you have to pass the turn with no mana up. Then on my turn I just make a lot more Myr and kill you. 6-0

    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    OTP I kill you. OTD I can't beat Sculler. 3-3

    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    You can't kill me turn 1 or stop me from killing you turn 1. 6-0

    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    OTP I kill you. OTD you can counter Genesis Chamber. 3-3

    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    This is me :]

    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    OTP I kill you. OTD you Duress me. 3-3

    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    We trade OTKs. 3-3

    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe
    Lose to FoN. 0-6

    0+3+3+3+0+6+0+3+0+6+3+3+0+0+3+0 = 33

    The last few rounds where I've thought "This is broken, I have to play control to stop all the crazy decks" have not worked out for me, so I decided to just play a turn 1 deck. Not so good this time, but at least it was easy to calculate results!

  3. #4983
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    I keep forgetting that restriction on FoN, thanks for walking through it y'all
    It changes the line in some of your other matchups, but luckily it doesn't change the final result.

  4. #4984
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It changes the line in some of your other matchups, but luckily it doesn't change the final result.
    Yep, I tried to update my analysis to capture all of those.

  5. #4985

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry

    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    Can't beat FoN. LL

    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    You can just go off on the end of my turn. LL

    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    You can just go off on the end of my turn. LL

    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    I can't beat Energy Field, but Inkmoth can't attack into my tokens. DD

    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    I can't beat Foil. LL

    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    I can't beat FoN. LL

    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    OTP I go off and win, OTD you Sculler my Foundry so I can't do anything. WL

    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    I can't beat FoN. LL

    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    You can't stop my combo. WW

    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    OTP I combo. OTD you can counter Foundry, so I lose. WL

    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    You can beat infinite life and win before I do. LL

    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    OTP I combo. OTD you Duress Foundry and I lose. WL

    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler
    I can't beat FoN. LL

    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux
    I can't beat FoN. LL

    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    This wins turn 1 and beats infinite life, so I am too slow. LL

    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe
    I can't beat FoN. LL

    5W 2D 25L = 17

    Well, that went poorly. I made this deck to beat artifact destruction like Force of Vigor and get wins against midrange, so the lack of that killed any hope of me doing well this round. The other version I considered ran Tormod's Crypt to beat other combo decks, which would gotten 6 more wins. I spent a lot of time trying to make Goblin Welder work, but could never get the mana right and since there was so much Force of Negation this week it wouldn't have been great either.

  6. #4986

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Jedis"

    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    You use the force :( 0-6

    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    Grapeshot 3-3

    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    Grapeshot 3-3

    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    Leyline 0-6

    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    Foiled again :( 0-6

    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry
    Grapeshot 6-0

    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    You use the force 0-6

    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    Sculler 3-3

    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    You use the force 0-6

    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    Grapeshot 6-0

    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    The force is weak in this one 3-3

    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    Speedy Myrs 3-3

    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    Duress 3-3

    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler
    You use the force 0-6

    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux
    You use the force 0-6

    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    That's me, not smashing with squirrels

    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe
    You use the force 0-6

    Total: 30 points

  7. #4987
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster View Post
    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Jedis"

    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    Foiled again :( 0-6

    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    Duress 3-3
    I was about to reply that Conjurer's Bauble combo protects itself against discard on Baubles or Grapeshot, but Mox Opal turns out to be terrible here. A simple Ancient Den would WW 6-0 vs Duress.

    Against Foil I think you'd lose either way. Even if Bauble recovers the countered one to keep going (not exiled to FoN), you'd be 1 mana short for Grapeshot.

  8. #4988
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I was about to reply that Conjurer's Bauble combo protects itself against discard on Baubles or Grapeshot, but Mox Opal turns out to be terrible here. A simple Ancient Den would WW 6-0 vs Duress.

    Against Foil I think you'd lose either way. Even if Bauble recovers the countered one to keep going (not exiled to FoN), you'd be 1 mana short for Grapeshot.
    Crystal Vein was the option I think to beat non-exiling counterspells (Tomb and City are already banned). I had storm from when the round was originally announced but wasn't willing to play it with FoN and Leyline of Sanctity still in the format.

  9. #4989

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer

    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze WW
    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek LL
    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek LL
    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity LL
    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor DD
    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry LL
    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer WW
    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur LL
    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation WW
    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor WL
    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed LL
    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress DD
    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler WW - Took me a while to figure out that your lonely 2/2 can't get help from an Apprentice.
    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux WL - Essence Flux is hilarious.
    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot LL
    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe LL

    10w4d = 34 points

    I clearly missed the combo memo, but I guess it worked out because at least I dodge Force of Negation, which made me glad I did not try to force the bad turn 1 Grave Titan fueled with Lotus Petal plan. (Although Revoker might have been better than Overseer, or the brilliancy option of FTW's Collector Ouphe would have worked as well.)
    Last edited by Wrath of Pie; 07-01-2021 at 11:11 AM.

  10. #4990
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry
    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler
    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux
    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe

    1. Asthereal: You can force or daze field, but I still have a nexus. You can tap it to avoid loosing. 2-2 --> 2
    2. Reeplcheep: Your guys can go through field, mine can't go through your tokens. 2-2 --> 4
    3. jhhdk: Same thopter combo without FoN. 2-2 --> 6
    4. Me
    5. PJim: I do nothing except playing lands. Nexus races arbor. 6-0 --> 12
    6. RoosterCocoa: ANother sword of the meek combo. 2-2 --> 14
    7. Alphastryk: FoN + recusive threat that you can play anyway if i choose just to attack with inkmoth nexus. 0-6 --> 14
    8. Phasmoid: You can't take energy field and nexus will win. 6-0 --> 20
    9. dte: You can FoN field, and DS races nexus. 0-6 --> 20
    10. Wrath of pie: Energy field T1 does its job. 6-0 --> 26
    11. H: OTP, i play field T1, then you play sailor and can block to draw. OTD, I can play nexus T1 then field to have 3 mana and pass Force spike for the same draw. 2-2 --> 28
    12. maxx!: OTD Field T1 wins. OTP you OTK me T1. 3-3 --> 31
    13. Silkster: Sword to plowshare kills my dude and you can't attack 2-2 --> 33
    14. mattamort: OTP, if I try to play field, you FoN it then you play your 2/2 that will race my 1/1 infect. SO i play nexus first. After that, if you play All your guys, I can play field for the draw cause you can tap my land. If you play only sculler I don't play field and start attacking you FTW. So you play both guys to draw. OTD, you play sculler first don't play the tapper. whatever I play first you'll be able to FoN field (if I play it) and race because you attack first. 4-1 --> 34
    15. Serguei: You can allways FoN field of energy. However, when I'm OTP I win because I attack first. OTD you win because you attack first. 3-3 --> 37
    16. Goblinsmashmaster: Leyline owns grapeshot. 6-0 --> 43
    17. FTW: FoN counters energy field and i can't attack because of Ouphe. 0-6 --> 43

    13 draws, 10 wins, 9 losses
    Total 43.

    Not bad for 5 minutes of work... nah I worked a little bit more but tried to play fair magic at the beginning like casting 3 memnites and tempered steel or 2 memnite a land and a planeswalker. but It was slow And I was sure there would be a T1 combo and also duress / discard decks. I completely missed FoN for this round and played right into it :)
    I also thought about reanimation but it was soft to discard also. But I was running out of time (Busy before vacations as allways), so I choose to play a deck that doesn't fold to discard and deploys it's win condition on T1. led to a lot of draws because inkmoth nexus is a weak kill condition and a lot of loos to FoN :)
    Just for information, we decided that we would not work all together with Matt and serguei as some of you expressed that they were not happy loosing to our "cartel". So this round was three solo players... well at least I played solo because Matt and Serguei's decks look similar again :) Maybe they were bored about me choosing the right deck without giving enough ideas and played without me :) (Ok. I should not try to find excuses for being bad. I'm bad, they are better that's all).
    So I didn't have Matt's ideas and even if i'm apparently not bad at choosing the right deck (as you can see in this season results) without deck ideas... i'm pretty bad :)

  11. #4991

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    This round turns my hypothetical from page 247 into an actual, and
    Tylert's comment for Tylert's game against Aesthereal makes me think
    this might affect more than one game, so I'm checking this again.


    OTP Asthereal: Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    OTD me: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur

    If Tidehollow Sculler resolves, then I win, since
    a 2/2 beats a 1/2 even if I’m down by 1 life.
    Asthereal must cast T1 Dockhand, since otherwise I cast
    T2 Tidehollow Sculler with 1 extra mana to pay for Daze.
    Asthereal can Daze a T1 Sculler.
    After that, for an arbitrarily long amount of time, Asthereal can tap Den
    in my upkeep, have Daze open in my main phases, and re-play Island
    on Asthereal's next turn, thereby stopping me from resolving anything.
    In particular, if this is an exception to the
    infinity rule, then Asthereal doesn't lose.
    On the other hand, Dockhand attacking stops it from
    tapping Den, activating Dockhand's ability is an optional action,
    and I am not doing anything during this loop.
    Thus, the infinity rule says Dockhand must eventually
    not tap Den during my turn before my pre-combat main phase.
    Once that happens, I play Vault of Whispers and Tidehollow Sculler,
    with 1 extra mana to pay for Daze.
    As mentioned earlier, my 2/2 then beats a 1/2, even if I took
    1 damage from Dockhand attacking instead of tapping Den.


    Is this an exception to the infinity rule?

  12. #4992

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Ooh, I get to bring this classic from the MTR back!

    4.4 Loops

    A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then
    performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and
    cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".)

    If no players are involved in maintaining the loop, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to
    perform before they will take an action to break the loop or that they wish to take no action. If all players choose
    to take no action, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations
    chosen and the player who chose that number takes an action to break the loop.

    If one player is involved in maintaining the loop, they choose a number of iterations. The other players, in turn
    order, agree to that number or announce a lower number after which they intend to intervene. The game advances
    through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority.
    If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop within a turn, each player in turn order chooses a
    number of iterations to perform. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the
    player who chose that number receives priority.

    Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than
    the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining
    a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue
    indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances
    through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the
    point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop.

    A player intervening during a loop may specify that one iteration of the loop is only partly performed in order to
    be able to take action at the appropriate point. If they do, the final iteration is only performed up to the chosen
    point.

    Non-deterministic loops (loops that rely on decision trees, probability or mathematical convergence) may not be
    shortcut. A player attempting to execute a nondeterministic loop must stop if at any point during the process a
    previous game state (or one identical in all relevant ways) is reached again. This happens most often in loops that
    involve shuffling a library.

    Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the
    player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the
    player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether
    any choice is available that will not continue the loop.

    The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop. A player may not 'opt-out' of shortcutting a loop, nor may
    they make irrelevant changes between iterations in an attempt to make it appear as though there is no loop. Once a
    loop has been shortcut, it may not be restarted until the game has changed in a relevant way. Proposing loops as
    an effort to use up time on the clock is Stalling.
    I'm not even going to try to figure out the answer, because others are far more qualified than I am. (Also, there was a debate, also including whether or not the MTR is even relevant.)

  13. #4993
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Phasmoid View Post
    OTP Asthereal: Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    OTD me: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur

    If Tidehollow Sculler resolves, then I win, since
    a 2/2 beats a 1/2 even if I’m down by 1 life.
    Asthereal must cast T1 Dockhand, since otherwise I cast
    T2 Tidehollow Sculler with 1 extra mana to pay for Daze.
    Asthereal can Daze a T1 Sculler.
    After that, for an arbitrarily long amount of time, Asthereal can tap Den
    in my upkeep, have Daze open in my main phases, and re-play Island
    on Asthereal's next turn, thereby stopping me from resolving anything.
    In particular, if this is an exception to the
    infinity rule, then Asthereal doesn't lose.
    On the other hand, Dockhand attacking stops it from
    tapping Den, activating Dockhand's ability is an optional action,
    and I am not doing anything during this loop.
    Thus, the infinity rule says Dockhand must eventually
    not tap Den during my turn before my pre-combat main phase.
    Once that happens, I play Vault of Whispers and Tidehollow Sculler,
    with 1 extra mana to pay for Daze.
    As mentioned earlier, my 2/2 then beats a 1/2, even if I took
    1 damage from Dockhand attacking instead of tapping Den.


    Is this an exception to the infinity rule?
    I'd guess that this is an exception to the infinity rule for Card Blind only (not Magic in general), but Asthereal or Wrath of Pie should really weigh in here.

    What if you have a "loop" like Gideon's Lawkeeper tapping down Blightsteel Colossus? Since tapping it is an optional action, are you forced to eventually stop tapping Blightsteel and let it kill you?

    Or Rishadan Port vs Inkmoth Nexus (with other nonland cards removed)? Since tapping with Port is an optional action and the opponent isn't taking any actions, do you have to stop Porting the opponent and lose?

    Or Isochron Scepter with Orim's Chant, but lost your win condition. Does that mean you're forced to stop Chanting each upkeep and lose the game?


    I think those situations are meant to be draws in 4CB.
    But it's an interesting question where to draw the line between that and other optional infinite loops. I *think* the difference here is that both players get to take a turn, even if one can't do anything with that turn.

  14. #4994

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    My entry:

    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux

    Once again a combo round so it was time to play conrol. As double Thoughtseize t1 has won last round I wanted to submit it again. I have hesitated until last minute with sbtlety, and I should have XD


    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    WL 3 pt -> 3pts

    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    WW 6 pts -> 9 pts

    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    WW 6 pts -> 15 pts

    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    WL 3pts -> 18pts

    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    LL

    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry
    WW 6pts -> 24 pts

    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    Sculler will manage Mu Yanling. Nevertheless you will be able to play griffin from exile
    Griffin will comes into play late OTP & OTD but not enough late for sculler to kill you. We will stares into eyes.

    DD 2 pts -> 26 pts

    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    WL 3pts -> 29 pts

    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    LL

    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    WL 3 pts -> 32 pts

    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    WL 3 pts -> 35 pts

    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    WW 6 pts -> 41 pts

    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    WL 3 pts ->44 pts

    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler
    WL 3 pts -> 47 pts

    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    WW 6 pts -> 53 pts

    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe
    LL


    Total 53 pts

  15. #4995
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    OTD H has 2 counters for your 2 threats.

    If you play T1 creature (2 mana), H counters with Force Spike, then counters the 2nd with Steel Sabotage.

    If you wait and play T2 creature to beat Force Spike (3 mana), H counters with Steel Sabotage, then counters the 2nd with Force Spike (only 2 mana available).

    WL 3-3?

  16. #4996

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    14. mattamort: Ancient Den, Force of Negation, Stormscape Apprentice, Tidehollow Sculler

    Another combo round, lots of turn 1-2 deck, most of them proposed. I had also Karn + KCI + Grim monolith + arto land. But they were all weak to FON and did not really find a quick kill with only creature.
    Then naturally, I associate with Subtlety but I was a little bit scared with the fact that oppo may replay their creature even if they did not have the boost of mana.

    Then I thought I could play Sculler + a blue tapper would be good at dealing this kind of deck where FON + Subtlety would be ineffective or where a cheap threat would be good.



    The entries:
    1. Asthereal (TO): Island, Rishadan Dockhand, Force of Negation, Daze
    WD -> OTD I play my tapper that keeps Dockhand in check forever
    4Pts
    2. Reeplcheep: vault of whispers, mox opal, thopter foundry, Sword of the Meek
    WW -> FON for the win
    10Pts
    3. jhhdk: Seat of the Synod, Thopter Foundry, Mox Opal, Sword of the Meek
    WW -> FON for the win
    16Pts
    4. Tylert: Ancient den, Energy field, Inkmoth nexus, Leyline of sanctity
    OTP -> Sculler kills you before nexus kill me if I FON field
    OTD -> I just play the tapper and get the draw
    WD
    20 Pts
    5. PJim: Foil, Island, Nether Spirit, Dryad Arbor
    LL
    A clever idea, I cant not play my 2 threats if one is countered
    20Pts
    6. RoosterCocoa: Vault of Whispers, Welding Jar, Sword of the Meek, Thopter Foundry
    WW -> FON for the win
    26Pts
    7. alphastryk: Sand Silos, Misthollow Griffin, Force of Negation, Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer
    WW -> Sculler takes Mu, tapper is played and deals with griffin
    32Pts
    8. Phasmoid: Ancient Den, Tidehollow Sculler, Vault of Whispers, Rotting Regisaur
    WL -> Players OTP wins
    35Pts
    9. dte: Tarnished citadel, Death's shadow, subtlety, Force of negation
    The weakness of my deck is that I can not play my tapper if sculler is countered
    LL
    35 Pts
    -> Disagreement
    10. Wrath of Pie: Darksteel Citadel, Darksteel Citadel, Hangarback Walker, Steel Overseer
    WW -> Sculler takes one threat, tapper deals with the other
    41Pts
    11. H: Island, Steel Sabotage, Force Spike, Spectral Sailor
    OTP, I take Sabotage and wins
    OTD, I play tapper with mana up to deal with sailor
    WD
    45Pts
    12. maxx!: Seat of the Synod, Genesis Chamber, Shrieking Drake, Burst of Speed
    WW -> FON for the win
    51Pts
    13. silkster: Ancient Den, Chronomaton, Swords to Plowshares, Duress
    OTP, I take stp and wins
    OTD, Chronomathon is played with extra mana, I play sculler, threatening to take stp. You have to play it since otherwise, I ll take it. And then tapper get the draws.
    WD
    55 Pts
    15. Serguei: Vault of Whispers;Tidehollow Sculler;Force Of Negation;Essence Flux
    WL
    58Pts
    16. GoblinSmashmaster: Mox Opal, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
    WW -> FON for the win
    64 Pts
    17. FTW: Force of Negation, Subtlety, Darksteel Citadel, Collector Ouphe
    LL

    64 Pts
    20W-4D-8L

    Not too bad, tapper gets some draws OTD. Subtlety was maybe better, but by a small margin I believe.

  17. #4997
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I'd guess that this is an exception to the infinity rule for Card Blind only (not Magic in general), but Asthereal or Wrath of Pie should really weigh in here.

    What if you have a "loop" like Gideon's Lawkeeper tapping down Blightsteel Colossus? Since tapping it is an optional action, are you forced to eventually stop tapping Blightsteel and let it kill you?

    Or Rishadan Port vs Inkmoth Nexus (with other nonland cards removed)? Since tapping with Port is an optional action and the opponent isn't taking any actions, do you have to stop Porting the opponent and lose?

    Or Isochron Scepter with Orim's Chant, but lost your win condition. Does that mean you're forced to stop Chanting each upkeep and lose the game?


    I think those situations are meant to be draws in 4CB.
    But it's an interesting question where to draw the line between that and other optional infinite loops. I *think* the difference here is that both players get to take a turn, even if one can't do anything with that turn.
    The thing with the infinitiy rule is that regular Magic has been organized such that there can always be a winner.
    The nature of 4CB is that sometimes you can't win. A staredown between two beefed up Kird Apes is unbreakable.
    The only way to stop those kinds of locks is by breaking the main rule of 4CB: "all players always play optimally" (meaning: go for the maximum result you can).

    So indeed 4CB breaks the infinity rule in some ways. Against Phasmoid OTP I am forced to keep tapping a land in order to not lose. So that match will end in a draw-loss (1-4) for me.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  18. #4998

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think we really need something about infinite loops across turns built into the rules. I'm going to suggest again the rule from the first game I played on reddit:

    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.

    This keeps any in turn infinite loops sensible, and allows for every reasonable 'best play' scenario I can think of. It does allow Time Vault + Voltaic Key to draw, but given that drawing scores pretty badly, I don't think that would be an issue. We could as FTW suggests make it apply only if both players take a turn instead, and I don't think it would change much.

  19. #4999
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    I think we really need something about infinite loops across turns built into the rules. I'm going to suggest again the rule from the first game I played on reddit:

    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.

    This keeps any in turn infinite loops sensible, and allows for every reasonable 'best play' scenario I can think of. It does allow Time Vault + Voltaic Key to draw, but given that drawing scores pretty badly, I don't think that would be an issue. We could as FTW suggests make it apply only if both players take a turn instead, and I don't think it would change much.
    We can keep this as a basis, sort of. The current rules already sort of work like this, except that players never get to choose a number.

    The disadvantage of trying to follow normal MtG rules religiously in 4CB is that we don't actually play the games.
    The optimal play rule dictates what happens and what the result is, not player choices.
    If someone can create infinite creatures, they create a number that is always sufficient to win, because that's optimal.
    If afterwards we find out a bigger (or smaller) number was needed, then that player will create that number instead.
    This whole idea screws with regular MtG rules big time, but in 9 seasons we never had issues applying these rules.

    Loops across turns, like eternally tapping a land or a creature that would otherwise attack for a ton of damage, are part of 4CB.
    This is why we have so many more draws than in regular MtG. And to discourage locks as a strategy, we award 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw.

    (Though I am seriously considering spicing up the scoring for next seasons, with SP awards for all wins and all draws. But that's another thing entirely.)


    EDIT: The longer I think about this, the weirder it gets. Single step loops containing a voluntary action are never actual loops to "infinity" in 4CB.
    The line of play only gets repeated as often as is necessary for the controller to reach an optimal result. No more, as more would be a theoretical waste of time.
    There are loops possible with only mandatory actions (so we can't stop them from looping), and those would lead to a either a win if a wincon is part of it (say every loop a player loses a life), or a draw if no wincon is part of it.

    Across turns there are many voluntary actions, but optimal play dictates we choose the ones that give us the best result.
    So if I have to tap a land in order to keep a threat from being cast, I have to do it. Every turn, no exception.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  20. #5000

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post

    (Though I am seriously considering spicing up the scoring for next seasons, with SP awards for all wins and all draws. But that's another thing entirely.)
    You tried this already a few years ago, I said it was a bad idea (because either you make trying to draw across the board optimal because sweeping the field is much harder, or the awards are effectively irrelevant), let's not go through this again.

    The bigger question is whether or not the MTR is relevant, or simply the Comp Rules, because the Comp Rules are far less strict:

    722.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated
    indefinitely (thus creating a “loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine
    how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how
    the loop is broken.
    722.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an
    independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens,
    the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order
    who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
    Under this interpretation, Time Vault taking all the turns without a win condition is still not legal, but the question is whether tapping a permanent controlled by an opponent during an opponent's turn involves both players (because that would lead to a draw). It could also be that optimal play concepts overrule loop rules. (This is probably why MTGS had a set of CB Comprehensive Rules back when they had CB, except they called it Perfect Hand Magic.)

    EDIT: PJim basically has the rule from their ruleset, except they also later explicitly banned taking infinite turns. Probably would be simpler to just go with that (except we can probably leave infinite turns legal, because if you can win taking all the turns, you deserve to), because loop rules are dumb.

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