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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #5481

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    About a)-That was the point: having insane mana all the time, but slowly losing the good cards you can use it on.
    And I'm guessing the anti-Lotus stuff gets banned in the first two rounds anyway. Should make for an interesting season, I think.

    But anyway, so far the creatures and lands only season seems very popular.
    It's less anti-Lotus and more anti-artifact, because Mana Crypt is playable and important in making the anti-strategies worse, likely to the point that the format just goes straight to "what's the best 5-drop/6-drop" every round. Seems boring.

  2. #5482
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    No more replies over the weekend, so we'll be going with the Creatures and Lands only option.
    This seems a little limited to me to be doing a full 15 round season, so I'd like to set up a 12 round season like we used to do.

    Now, we could go for an empty banned list as a start, but then we'd have to plow through Lab Mans and Prototypes.
    I think it'd be more interesting more quickly if we just start with the original banned list from Legacy and bannathon the top-3 each round from there.

    Unless anybody has a better idea? Let me know in the next few days. If most are okay with the above, I'll edit all the things and hopefully we can start next week.
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  3. #5483

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    No more replies over the weekend, so we'll be going with the Creatures and Lands only option.
    This seems a little limited to me to be doing a full 15 round season, so I'd like to set up a 12 round season like we used to do.

    Now, we could go for an empty banned list as a start, but then we'd have to plow through Lab Mans and Prototypes.
    I think it'd be more interesting more quickly if we just start with the original banned list from Legacy and bannathon the top-3 each round from there.

    Unless anybody has a better idea? Let me know in the next few days. If most are okay with the above, I'll edit all the things and hopefully we can start next week.
    Prototype is not as good as you think it is, but the other four creatures on the Legacy ban list should definitely stay banned, otherwise we waste a couple of rounds banning them.

  4. #5484
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Prototype is not as good as you think it is, but the other four creatures on the Legacy ban list should definitely stay banned, otherwise we waste a couple of rounds banning them.
    Agreed with all of the above - Prototype is probably fine as a beefy creature in a bannathon, but Lab Man & friends are pretty degenerate.

    Edit - Although, in the spirit of a true bannathon, perhaps it is correct to just let them get banned?

  5. #5485

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I would be for banning city of traitors and ancient tomb, and then say we are not banning lands that only produce mana (i.e. Dust bowl or maze of ith can be banned, but not Sandstone needle or any biland/storage land/depletion land).

    I would also be for banning the fast mana (chancellor of the tangle, elvish/Simian Spirit guide), and things that we know are strong (magus of the moon, Tabernacle,...).

    Waiting for a few rounds for the degeneracy to go down sounds less fun.

  6. #5486

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I would be for banning city of traitors and ancient tomb, and then say we are not banning lands that only produce mana (i.e. Dust bowl or maze of ith can be banned, but not Sandstone needle or any biland/storage land/depletion land).

    I would also be for banning the fast mana (chancellor of the tangle, elvish/Simian Spirit guide), and things that we know are strong (magus of the moon, Tabernacle,...).

    Waiting for a few rounds for the degeneracy to go down sounds less fun.
    I think you still have to ban Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple with that plan.

  7. #5487

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    For reference, the legacy banlist has Barbed Shocker, Chancellor of the Annex, Laboratory Maniac, Lupine Prototype, Thassa's Oracle. I had to look them up cause I had no idea.

    Normally I'd be with alphastryk and be a bannothon "purist" in matters like these and let the top cards get banned naturally, but I'm definitely more excited for the later rounds anyway, so I'm good with starting with these on the ban list. I'd be okay to put Tabernacle on that list too and maybe one or two others. City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, SSG, ESG, and Chancellor of the Tangle should probably either all be banned or none be banned. I think I'm okay either way. I don't like the idea of making lands immune from bans. Mana-producing-only will be an extra complication, and there are plenty of interesting lands waiting for the spotlight anyway.

  8. #5488
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    For reference, the legacy banlist has Barbed Shocker, Chancellor of the Annex, Laboratory Maniac, Lupine Prototype, Thassa's Oracle. I had to look them up cause I had no idea.

    Normally I'd be with alphastryk and be a bannothon "purist" in matters like these and let the top cards get banned naturally, but I'm definitely more excited for the later rounds anyway, so I'm good with starting with these on the ban list. I'd be okay to put Tabernacle on that list too and maybe one or two others. City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, SSG, ESG, and Chancellor of the Tangle should probably either all be banned or none be banned. I think I'm okay either way. I don't like the idea of making lands immune from bans. Mana-producing-only will be an extra complication, and there are plenty of interesting lands waiting for the spotlight anyway.
    I was planning on banning non-basic lands in the bannathon as normal.
    This way we get to use good lands, but the dangerous ones get banned in the first few rounds.

    We could decide on a starting banned list separate from the original Legacy banned list.
    With Tabernacle and without Prototype, for instance. But other lands can also be included.
    If we were to do this, I guess these would go:

    Barbed Shocker
    Chancellor of the Annex
    Laboratory Maniac
    Thassa's Oracle
    The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    and the usual land destruction lands, of course.

    We could include fast mana guys Chancellor of the Tangle and the Spirit Guides as well, like dte suggests. Everybody okay with that?
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  9. #5489

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Fast mana is likely to be banned quickly, and I am sure that we don't want Round 1 to be all about Thought-Knot Seer and friends (which is what would happen via dte's plan, and why I said that banning Eye of Ugin/Eldrazi Temple was also necessary).

    I'm not convinced that skipping the fast mana would make the format that much more interesting in the long run.

  10. #5490

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Fast mana is likely to be banned quickly, and I am sure that we don't want Round 1 to be all about Thought-Knot Seer and friends (which is what would happen via dte's plan, and why I said that banning Eye of Ugin/Eldrazi Temple was also necessary).

    I'm not convinced that skipping the fast mana would make the format that much more interesting in the long run.
    Easier to ban TKS than both lands, also like this other eldrazi might be playable? Otherwise I agree with WoP that r1 could be tks*2 round again.

    I would go to ban beforehand everything we know for sure will be banned, otherwise we know we will first play city of traitors round 1, then ancient tomb round 2, etc..

    If we know some stuff will get banned for sure, why not banning it outright and give weird cards a chance to shine?

  11. #5491
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I'm fine with whatever, but I don't know how aggressively we want to pre-ban things (I think there's more depth to the Sol Lands / Eldrazi etc meta than people are thinking right now for example, and its making me think a lot)

  12. #5492
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    I'm fine with whatever, but I don't know how aggressively we want to pre-ban things (I think there's more depth to the Sol Lands / Eldrazi etc meta than people are thinking right now for example, and its making me think a lot)
    I agree with this. If we ban everything we know will surely be banned, we just run into new things that then will surely be banned. There's always a best mana producer and a best creature.

    On the fast mana side I say we start with banning the Spirit Guides and Chancellor of the Tangle, but not the rest.
    On the "normal" creature side, I think we can start with a ban on Thought-Knot Seer, as well as the four I mentioned above, but we can probably keep the rest.
    This of course if we decide to go for banning nonbasics regardless of whether they have extra abilities. Which I would be in favour of as well.

    If we decide to ban only nonbasics that have abilities other than mana abilities, we could choose to ban City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Temple.

    So I guess we should vote on:
    A: Banning all nonbasic lands from the top 3 scoring decks each round, or
    B: Banning only nonbasic lands that have abilities beyond producing mana.
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  13. #5493
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I like banning all non-basics personally

  14. #5494

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    I agree with this. If we ban everything we know will surely be banned, we just run into new things that then will surely be banned. There's always a best mana producer and a best creature.

    On the fast mana side I say we start with banning the Spirit Guides and Chancellor of the Tangle, but not the rest.
    On the "normal" creature side, I think we can start with a ban on Thought-Knot Seer, as well as the four I mentioned above, but we can probably keep the rest.
    This of course if we decide to go for banning nonbasics regardless of whether they have extra abilities. Which I would be in favour of as well.

    If we decide to ban only nonbasics that have abilities other than mana abilities, we could choose to ban City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Temple.

    So I guess we should vote on:
    A: Banning all nonbasic lands from the top 3 scoring decks each round, or
    B: Banning only nonbasic lands that have abilities beyond producing mana.
    If we run out of nonbasic lands to play in round 12, then we have bigger issues because there are so many of them. Plus you can try to ban Thalakos Lowlands again!

    You might also have to look at Eldrazi Mimic, although a fast 12/12 is not quite as good overall as fast Thought-Knot Seers.

  15. #5495

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I am in favour for the ESG + SSG + TKS + chancellor of the tangle bans.

    I would also ban city of traitors and ancient tomb, or at least city. Otherwise tomb is one of the best land (2nd best?), yet it will likely not even see play in R1. It also a bit defeats the purpose of banathon, to have functionally very similar things.

  16. #5496
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think all non-basics should be eligible for bans (A). We won't run out of duals in 12 rounds. Just get creative.
    Then we won't have to worry about debating whether Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Temple belong in B or not. Start with them unbanned and let them get banned naturally. #banThalakos Lowland

    I don't think we need to bother banning TKS. With most fast mana banned, turn 1 TKS is not possible. T2 discard is good but Mesmeric Fiend and friends are still legal, so TKS is not *that* much more degenerate and the sol lands will get banned eventually anyway.

  17. #5497
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Everybody who's been vocal about it has supported allowing all nonbasics to be banned in the bannathon, so I'm leaning towards that right now.
    Last chance to speak up against it.
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  18. #5498

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Personally I would like to see all nonbasics eligible for banning, and to start with a minimal banlist. Oracle for sure needs to go, probably Labman and Channex too. Barbed Shocker is pretty close, but probably better off to start with it banned. I think Lupine Prototype might be fine? His size makes him an interesting way to combat TKS.

    I think starting with as much open as possible will make for some interesting metagaming. We don't have to ban Eldrazi stuff outright if we don't ban fast mana, because it's no longer clear which deck is the best. I think Mishra's Workshop might also be fine? Maybe? The good thing about a bannathon is that if we accidentally leave some broken things legal, the problem naturally takes care of itself.

    Edit: I also think Tabernacle is fine to start with unbanned, but that's just me. The Strip Mine lands might be better off banned from the get-go.

  19. #5499

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Tabernacle serves basically the same role Channex does in that it is technically beatable but warps the format around it.

  20. #5500
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    To me, the starting point compared to the normal legacy ban list is this:

    Unban: Lupine Prototype

    Ban: Tabernacle

    Beyond that I really do think any problem will be solved quickly.

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