Technically we've allowed some cards which are banned in Vintage in our game's "Legacy" version, so that would be a functional change if we go that route. (Bazaar of Baghdad for example)
Not actually banned in Vintage.Originally Posted by alphastryk
"All cards not legal in Vintage (Restricted cards are legal)"
Perhaps. Anything actually banned in Vintage is banned for one of the reasons above, except the set of cards that were banned for art/flavor reasons (Crusade, Invoke Prejudice..., nothing that seems like it would ever be remotely playable in 4CB, Imprison maybe if you managed to ban 20 other removal spells first...)
Lurrus is maybe a card that could be played in 4CB and is banned in vintage.
I guess it could be sacrified for the sake of simplicity.
I agree with maxx!. I hadn't looked too carefully. I just saw removal and got sad.
The change to vintage list is interesting. I admit that PJim could have just played Toralf's Disciple and Oglor and I never would have seen it coming. I'm not actually sure how I would make use of them, but I'll treat that as a puzzle for the rest of the week. I was almost really offended because I thought I was about to submit a deck with an online-only card, but it's actually from a real set. I've just never played with it.
If Lurrus is the only issue, we could make the rules into: a card is legal in 4CB if it is legal in Vintage or if it is Lurrus. That's still much shorter than the alternatives.
I think banning those 7 flavour-banned cards in our game makes sense. They're not in gatherer or scryfall, which makes them really awkward to find, and even worse if you need to determine their rarities. In previous seasons, we went as far as banning 38 commons and uncommons that could be played from Swamp but not from Island, and I don't think Imprison was close. (It practically takes 2 mana because the creature will just attack the following turn and break free.)
Lurrus was unbanned in Vintage after the Companion rule change. It's not an issue.
As a theory exercise, I think even naive approaches to Toralf's Disciple and Oglor would be pretty good, the former is probably the best removal on a stick at a semi-accessible mana slot, and Oglor can go wide at a rate that makes Mayor blush. It may at some point be worth playing a round/season in Historic if this trend keeps up, though some others would present real scoring challenges.
You can find them on Scryfall if you specifically look for them.
Historic is a problem because with Alchemy being a thing (and effectively replacing competitive Standard), they can freely errata cards that will probably be otherwise legal in Standard (because uh no one will probably want to play Standard, Arena was literally the only thing keeping it relevant) and that errata applies to Historic. As a consequence, that requires knowing what errata actually applies at the moment. Because of that, I would not recommend Historic being a format. (We could do it without any of the online-only cards and errata, but at that point may as well just do Premodern or something like that.)
I'm glad someone's paying close attention!
Let's be honest, no one willingly tries to navigate the Wizards website at this point.
"It is with great pleasure that I inform you it is Wednesday, my dudes." -frog
Anyway, deadline has passed and it looks like I'm only missing an entry from FTW. I'll give you a bit more time while I do work stuff.
Also, interesting discussion above. I thought it was clear the way it was, and I still do. We haven't had an issue with it up to now.
But if everybody feels better about it, I could make the change to "All cards that are not legal in Vintage are banned, plus these individual cards: ..."
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Whoops, braindead moment on my part!
Sorry. With all the other discussion going on, I missed the round was posted above or if the banlist had been adjusted with the standings change (wanted to submit TKS).
Submitted now.
The succinct version looks fine to me. The relevant cards are on the Vintage Restricted List, not the banned list. The Vintage Banned List are cards legal in pretty much 0 formats so most players forget they exist anyway, but it is in fact a separate list.
My evening went a bit differently than I expected, but FTW's deck is in, so let's go.
DECKS FOR ROUND 5 OF SEASON 11: Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon
1. Asthereal (TO): Ghitu Encampment, Molten Slagheap, Bonecrusher Giant, Murderous Rider
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Nightshade Peddler, Sparksmith
3. Reeplcheep: Fury, Squee, The Immortal, Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
5. PJim: Underground River, Reef Shaman, Fume Spitter, Death's Shadow
6. alphastryk: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau
7. dte: Mishra's factory, badlands, mogg fanatic, Valki, god of lies
8. RoosterCocoa: Forest, Sandstone Needle, Mayor of Avabruck, Fulminator Mage
9. silkster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Myr Superion, Forge Devil
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler
11. FTW: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Shocker, Fanatical Firebrand
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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5. PJim: Underground River, Reef Shaman, Fume Spitter, Death's Shadow
I really hate trying to score Death's Shadow, but it's probably the best creature around that isn't fragile. Looks like Fume Spitter's going to overperform and Reef Shaman underperform.
vs
1. Asthereal (TO): Ghitu Encampment, Molten Slagheap, Bonecrusher Giant, Murderous Rider / 0-6, Casting Giant (Stomping Shaman if necessary) and holding back Swift End should win for you.
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Nightshade Peddler, Sparksmith / 6-0, Spitter on Sparksmith, or on Peddler if you hold it to pair with Shadow.
3. Reeplcheep: Fury, Squee, The Immortal, Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar / 2-2, Double Bazaar? Pretty sure Shadow can hold but not win.
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan / 6-0, Spitter on Welder.
6. alphastryk: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau / 6-0, I believe I can always stabilise, aim to get to 5 life, then attack. With blockers and Spitter's ability to kill 1 toughness creatures, attacking back will let me go again for 12.
7. dte: Mishra's factory, badlands, mogg fanatic, Valki, god of lies / 4-1, Valki has to take Spitter, lest it get Spat upon. OTP Shaman prevents Fanatic from landing, and Shadow can win through the 4 total power. OTD I end up with Shadow and Shaman vs Valki, Factory and Fanatic, and don't appear to be able to break through.
8. RoosterCocoa: Forest, Sandstone Needle, Mayor of Avabruck, Fulminator Mage / 4-1, OTP Shaman stops Mage from being cast, and Fume Spitter takes Mayor. OTD Mage lands, but T1 Fume Spitter draws.
9. silkster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Myr Superion, Forge Devil / 6-0, I think I can force my way to 5 life, swing for 8, and then 12 if you attack back. (With a -1/-1 from Spitter on Superion). Reef Shaman can either block Devil, or chump Superion if Devil chumps, so their presence isn't hugely relevant.
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler / 6-0, Spitter on Lackey.
11. FTW: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Shocker, Fanatical Firebrand / 6-0, Spitter on Shocker.
Last edited by PJim; 12-10-2021 at 05:28 AM.
Asthereal's scores for round 5:
1. Asthereal (TO): Ghitu Encampment, Molten Slagheap, Bonecrusher Giant, Murderous Rider <-me
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Nightshade Peddler, Sparksmith WW
I can wait and keep two mana open for Stomp, in case you start dropping guys or attack with Factory. If you don't, I tick up my land EOT until it has a million counters. From there I drop Giant, keeping Rider on backup in case you drop a creature. Giant can trade with Factory but my other stuff just wins it. If you then drop a guy, I kill it with Rider so you don't get to ping my team to death, after which the Rider itself will win the race.
3. Reeplcheep: Fury, Squee, The Immortal, Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar WW
This is complicated. I think this should work: I keep Rider back to kill Fury when it lands. I wait until you drop Squee, then Stomp it. I then cast Giant. You Fury it dead. I then Murder Fury with Rider. Cast Rider afterwards, which will, together with Encampment, will win the race. If you do nothing at all, I EOT tick up my land to a million counters and start attacking with Encampment, so that's no solution. You can also tick up your lands, but you have no mana sink, except for Squee, but Squee can't get past Giant unless you Fury it, but then I get to muder Fury with Rider and afterwards drop Rider again, which Squee also can't get past.
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan WL
OTP I'm fast enough to kill Welder. OTD I'm not and the 9/9 kills me.
5. PJim: Underground River, Reef Shaman, Fume Spitter, Death's Shadow WW
Reef Shaman dies to Stomp. Fume Spitter loses the race to Giant and Shadow gets Murdered by the Rider adventure. Swift End being instant speed helps if I have to drop Giant before I get to Stomp the Shaman.
6. alphastryk: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau LL
OTP: 1. Land / make team, att for 4 (16) 2. Stomp Walla / att for 5 (11) 3. Tick up 1 / att for 5 (6) 4. Tick up 2 / att for 5 (1) 5. Make Giant / attack, block and trade with Vine, Tribe kills me for exactsies.
7. dte: Mishra's factory, Badlands, Mogg fanatic, Valki, god of lies WD
EDIT: Sod it. I'm putting proper analysis below.
8. RoosterCocoa: Forest, Sandstone Needle, Mayor of Avabruck, Fulminator Mage LL
Mage blows up my tick up land, which hampers me somewhat.
9. silkster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Myr Superion, Forge Devil WL
EDIT: OTD: 1. make the 5/6 /Land 2. attack (15), make 1/1 / land, tick up 1. 3. attack (9) / tick up 2. 4. attack (3) / Muder the 5/6 with Rider. (1) 5. Attack (0 -> me=dead) OTP here I have 6 life more, and so I'll have time to Stomp the 1/1 and then win.
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler WL
OTP I can Stomp that Lackey. OTD the Lackey makes a land blow up dude, which hampers me somewhat.
11. FTW: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Shocker, Fanatical Firebrand WL
OTP I can Stomp that Shocker. OTD the Shocker makes me discard all my stuff, which hampers me somewhat.
Total: 34 points
EDIT: I thought I should probably have played Mishra's Factory instead of Encampment. It's just better, and both my adventure guys are instant speed anyway, so I shouldn't need the second red source. But being able to Stomp on turn two proved rather useful.
EDIT2: Against dte, on the draw:
Valki can't copy my guys, luckily. You take one, I kill Valki with the other. Then drop a wall so I don't die. That's the plan. Proper analysis below:
Fanatic / Land 2. Valki (take Giant), attack (19) / Land, tick up 1. 3. Attack with all (14) / Tick up 2. 4. Attack (9) / Murder the Valki (EDIT: 7 life because if Murder life cost thingy), get back Giant. 5. Attack (4) / wait. 6. Attack, I Stomp Factory (3). Now I have 4 turns to tick up twice and make Rider. That's just enough. So on T6 you only attack with Fanatic (4), EOT I tick up 1 / wait 7. Attack with both, I Stomp Factory (3) / wait. 8. Attack with Fan (2), EOT tick up 2, then cast Rider the turn after. You can't get past this now, so I have time to make Giant and start attacking for lifelink with the Rider. If you don't attack with Factory, I have more life and the Rider still stops everything with lifelink.
d1: Fanatic
A1: Encampment (tapped)
d2: Attack (A=19), cast Valki, take Giant
A2: Land, tick up 1
d3: Attack with all three (A=14)
A3: Tick up 2
d4: Attack with all three (A=9)
A4: Murderknight kills Valki (A=7), get Giant back in hand
d5: Attack with both (A=4)
A5: Untap and wait
d6: You attack with both, I Stomp Factory, Fan gets through (A=3)
A6: Tick up 1
d7: Just Fanatic left to attack with (A=2)
A7: Tick up 2
d8: Fanatic attacks (A=1). Then you sac it and I die.
Okay so this line doesn't work.
d1: Fanatic
A1: Encampment (tapped)
d2: Attack (A=19), cast Valki, take Giant
A2: Land, tick up 1
d3: Attack with all three (A=14)
A3: Tick up 2
d4: Attack with all three (A=9)
A4: Cast Knight without using its adventure. From here we draw.
If you choose to keep attacking, I will block Valki and you can sac the Fanatic to trade, but I get back both Knight and Giant and win.
If you only attack with Factory, I still block. You can sac the Fanatic to trade for both. Now I have time to tick up my land so I can block Valki with Encampment, and we end up in a staredown anyway.
OTP I'm faster and win with the line above, so it's a 4-1.
Last edited by Asthereal; 12-10-2021 at 11:33 AM.
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1. Asthereal (TO): Ghitu Encampment, Molten Slagheap, Bonecrusher Giant, Murderous Rider
0-6. Good deck for this week, should fare well.
0
2. Wrath of Pie: Taiga, Mishra's Factory, Nightshade Peddler, Sparksmith
4-1. OTP Valki copies sparkmith. OTD mogg takes sparkmith, Valki takes Peddler, and we stare.
4
3. Reeplcheep: Fury, Squee, The Immortal, Mercadian Bazaar, Mercadian Bazaar
4-1 I think. when I am OTP:
mogg / B
Valki takes Fury, R19 / B1, B
R14 / B1, B2
R9 / ---> either squee or counters
R9 / Squee
mogg kill Squee, R5 /B1B1
R1 --> win
So R9/B2B3
R4/B3 Squee
kill Squee and win
OTD I am a turn too late so we stare.
8
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Triplicate Titan
6-0. I think as long as mayor is alive, we will ive in pingerland and this deck will have a rough time.
14
5. PJim: Underground River, Reef Shaman, Fume Spitter, Death's Shadow
0-6 or 1-4. OTD you play shaman, which will prevent me to play mogg. So I can only play Valki T2 to take spitter, eventually shadow will kill me. OTP I lead with mogg. If you play spitter I kill it, take shadow with Valki and win. So you play shaman. I play Valki and take spitter. Eventually you will end up at 10 life and have a 3/3 shadow. Now if it attacks, it would die to a block, so you go to 8 and a 5/5. You attack me to 15, I attack back to put you to 5. you deal me 8, I go to 7. I keep mogg in defense, put you to 3. You cannot attack again (block and and we stare?).
I think there should be lines were shadow works, so I'll write 0-6 for now.
14
6. alphastryk: Blazing Rootwalla, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Plateau
2-2
16
7. dte: Mishra's factory, badlands, mogg fanatic, Valki, god of lies
Me, hoping Valki would be good. Only mogg was.
8. RoosterCocoa: Forest, Sandstone Needle, Mayor of Avabruck, Fulminator Mage
4-1
20
9. silkster: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Myr Superion, Forge Devil
2-2
22
10. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Sidisi's Faithful, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Settler
6-0, I have the better goblin!
28
11. FTW: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Shocker, Fanatical Firebrand
6-0, on the back of mogg.
34
@Asthereal, I believe you forgot the 2 life murder costs you in our MU?
11. FTW: Taiga, Tinder Wall, Shocker, Fanatical Firebrand
After finally banning Magus and the last Sol Lands, I expected a lot of durdly decks with slow lands, but everyone went back on X/1 hate again (after almost none last week). Bad timing. Myr Superion was the much better meta-call.
1. Asthereal (TO): OTP you have a tapped land and Shocker discards your other 3 cards. OTD you can hold up Stomp while adding charge counters, until eventually casting Rider. WL 3-3
2. Wrath of Pie: OTP you have 1 land and then Shocker discards your other 3 cards. OTD you can play Taiga + Factory, but if you play either creature then Firebrand kills it and Shocker discards the other, so you just hold up Factory as a blocker and I never attack. WD 4-1
3. Reeplcheep: Aha, slow lands! But Fury :|. Fury kills Shocker. Squee eventually gets there past my 1/1. LL 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP I play Shocker, you play a 1/1, and I kill it with Firebrand and discard your hand.
OTD you play Welder, I kill it with Firebrand, then you play Neonate. Ironically I can't block with Tinder Wall (Menace) and you race Shocker by 1 turn. WL 3-3
5. PJim: Shocker will die to Fume Spitter, so I could just play Tinder Wall and 1/1 Firebrand. But you can eventually get through with Death's Shadow. LL 0-6
6. alphastryk: You're faster. I can ping Rootwalla for 1 and block/shock Tribe with Tinder Wall, but I can't stop Vengevine too. LL 0-6
7. dte: You can ping Shocker, so I play Tinder Wall for fair value. If you play Valki, Firebrand kills it. Tinder Wall blocks your team well, but you can force me to trade it with Factory while Fanatic gets around. LL 0-6
8. RoosterCocoa: OTP you just have a tapped land and I discard your hand.
OTD I play T1 Firebrand and attack for 1. If you Fulminator Mage my land, I can ping your Mayor to draw. If you don't kill my land, I play 0/3 Tinder Wall to draw against the 2/2 and then ping your Mayor. WD 4-1
9. silkster: Your T1 threat is better than mine. LL 0-6
10. maxx!: If you ever play Lackey, Firebrand kills it. But you can just drop a 0/4 wall to draw vs my 0/3 wall. DD 2-2
16 points (4 wins, 4 draws, 12 loss)
I did indeed. Every time.
I'll check and edit my results. Might not matter, but it's getting close now.
EDIT: It did get close. As close as it can get. If I can still count, you get me down to 2 life, which becomes 1 if you sac the Fanatic. But as Ben Stark says: one does not equal zero. Lucky me.
EDIT2: Turns out I can't count, so I have to go for a different line, which draws.
Ah yes, the durdly. You read me perfectly. Sad to see you read the rest dreadfully.
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From your edit you go to 3, then fanatic attack and you go to 4?I did indeed. Every time.
I'll check and edit my results. Might not matter, but it's getting close now.
EDIT: It did get close. As close as it can get. If I can still count, you get me down to 2 life, which becomes 1 if you sac the Fanatic. But as Ben Stark says: one does not equal zero. Lucky
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