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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #5461

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Geier Reach Sanitarium does things here, doesn't seem as simple as you want it to be.
    You are right, it makes it a draw!
    And I realize I also win against Asthereal, as sinkhole cannot be played on T2. With more than half the MUs wrong in my initial analysis, I decided to just redo it a bit more carefully.

    1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra’s Factory, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Sinkhole
    6-0, T2 Emrakul > T3 Sinkhole
    6

    2. Wrath of Pie: Urza's Factory, Icatian Store, Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith
    3-3, T2 Emrakul OTP, and OTD I am ported down while the store gets counters, maze is discarded
    9

    3. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Goblin Lackey, Flame Slash, Morophon, the Boundless
    6-0. No LD!
    15

    4. Reeplcheep: Dust Bowl, Dunes of the Dead, Thran Turbine, Retrofitter Foundry
    6-0, T2 combo > T3 LD
    21

    5. dte: Geier Reach Sanitarium, sandstone needle, Stronghold Gambit, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    Me, with troubles evaluating Mus even without any combat maths.

    6. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Dunes of the Dead, Hangarback Walker, Cleansing Wildfire
    1-4. T2 targeted LD (can take sanitarium) + creature.
    22

    7. RoosterCocoa: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Brutal Cathar
    6-0, no LD
    28

    8. maxx!: Treetop Village, Gruul Turf, Sandstone Needle, Dust Bowl
    6-0, late LD
    34

    9. FTW: Stomping Ground, Skyshroud Cutter, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crack the Earth
    3-3. OTD crack the earth T2 beats me. OTP, T1 needle, FTW plays stomping ground (if cutter, I gambit T2), I play sanitarium, if FTW play crack the Earth, I take 2 manas of needle and sac it, then discard and shuffle. If no crack, double discard before his next turn.
    37

    10. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Havenwood Battleground, Llanowar mentor, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
    2-2. If you ever play mentor, you have battleground is the gy, and leyline + kozilek in hand. End of your turn, I make you discard, you have to discard leyline or I play gambit. my turn I pass. You attack me for 1. End of your turn, crack needle and discard, both our gy shuffle. My worst is top Emrakul, then needle, yours is 2 cards, then Kozilek. Draw Emrakul. Draw Leyline, attack for 1. Draw and play needle. Draw Havenwood. Play Gambit.
    So you never play mentor, and we stare for a long time.
    39

    11. PJim: Forest, Forest, Lush Growth, Thallid
    1-4. T2 LD + creature beats me.
    40

    12. alphastryk: Westvale Abbey,Sand Silos,Sand Silos,Dust Bowl
    6-0, late LD
    46

    Funnily enough, my initial score was correct even with 6/11 MUs wrong...

  2. #5462

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    11. PJim: Forest, Forest, Lush Growth, Thallid
    Deck created in a big hurry. Thallid's ability to beat Factories and Mazes felt possibly relevant. I wanted to be immune to Dust Bowl, but that may not have been worth not playing a Factory.

    2. Wrath of Pie: Urza's Factory, Icatian Store, Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith / 4-1, Thallid wins if it lands, making Tokens slightly better than Factory + Store. OTD Port has to tap me down forever.
    Maybe you made the same mistake as me: WoP plays Urza's, not mishra's factory. So he can start porting on T2 while very slowly developing a board.

  3. #5463
    Last edited by jhhdk; 10-14-2021 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #5464

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    You are right, it makes it a draw!

    10. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Havenwood Battleground, Llanowar mentor, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
    2-2. If you ever play mentor, you have battleground is the gy, and leyline + kozilek in hand. End of your turn, I make you discard, you have to discard leyline or I play gambit. my turn I pass. You attack me for 1. End of your turn, crack needle and discard, both our gy shuffle. My worst is top Emrakul, then needle, yours is 2 cards, then Kozilek. Draw Emrakul. Draw Leyline, attack for 1. Draw and play needle. Draw Havenwood. Play Gambit.
    So you never play mentor, and we stare for a long time.
    39
    Much better, and funnier.

  5. #5465
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal's scores for the final round:

    1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra’s Factory, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Sinkhole <-me
    2. Wrath of Pie: Urza's Factory, Icatian Store, Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith LL
    You keep Porting me and tick up Store until it has 1000000 counters. From there, you use Store to both Port and make tokens on my every upkeep and flood me with Assembly dudes.
    3. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Goblin Lackey, Flame Slash, Morophon, the Boundless WW
    4. Reeplcheep: Dust Bowl, Dunes of the Dead, Thran Turbine, Retrofitter Foundry WL
    5. dte: Geier Reach Sanitarium, sandstone needle, Stronghold Gambit, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn LL
    My LD fires on turn 3, Gambit is always faster. My deck does not handle large Eldrazi very well.
    6. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Dunes of the Dead, Hangarback Walker, Cleansing Wildfire LL
    7. RoosterCocoa: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Brutal Cathar WL
    8. maxx!: Treetop Village, Gruul Turf, Sandstone Needle, Dust Bowl WL
    9. FTW: Stomping Ground, Skyshroud Cutter, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crack the Earth DD
    10. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Havenwood Battleground, Llanowar mentor, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth WW
    11. PJim: Forest, Forest, Lush Growth, Thallid LL (Thallid, nice.)
    12. alphastryk: Westvale Abbey,Sand Silos,Sand Silos,Dust Bowl DD

    Total: 25 points
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  6. #5466
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Preliminary scores for the final round:
    1. silkster: 55 - 5
    2. dte: 46 - 4,2
    2. PJim: 46 - 4,2
    4. Wrath of Pie: 42 - 3,8
    4. Reeplcheep: 42 - 3,8
    6. FTW: 41 - 3,7
    7. GoblinSmashmaster: 30 - 2,7
    8. maxx!: 27 - 2,5
    9. Asthereal (TO): 25 - 2,3
    10. RoosterCocoa: 21 - 1,9
    11. alphastryk: 17 - 1,5
    12. jhhdk: 2 - 0,2

    Which leads to these bannings, just for the stats:
    Cleansing Wildfire
    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    Dunes of the Dead
    Geier Reach Sanitarium
    Hangarback Walker
    Lush Growth
    Sandstone Needle
    Stronghold Gambit
    Thallid

    And standings for the season look as follows:
    1. dte: 54,7
    2. silkster: 52,5
    3. PJim: 51,4
    4. FTW: 46,9
    5. alphastryk: 46
    6. maxx!: 45,5
    7. GoblinSmashmaster: 44,3
    8. Serguei: 42,2
    9. RoosterCocoa: 39
    10. Wrath of Pie: 35,7
    11. mattamort: 34,9
    12. Reeplcheep: 32,1
    13. Tylert: 29,6
    14. Asthereal (TO): 27,2
    15. jhhdk: 21,9
    16. Phasmoid: 17,1
    17. H: 10
    18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1

    These are not set in stone yet, as we're missing one result, and perhaps there are still a few mistakes here and there.
    But it's clear that the top spot has been claimed. Nobody can get close anymore, so...

    Congratulations to dte for winning a second season in a row!

    After his debut at number two in season 8, dte has proven himself a dominant force in our little competition of chaos.
    But credit must go to silk and PJim as well, for keeping this season exciting until the very last round.

    Evaluation
    In hindsight, I feel like the setup for this season was too ambitious. Using both a bannathon, which means I need every result before opening a new round, and using "deviant" ideas that differ every round, which can lead to questions or unclear rules, turned the season into a bit of a mess at times. For future seasons, I think we should probably keep things a little simpler. Deviant is really fun, but there must be time for questions. Bannathons work great, but we need all results to determine which cards get banned, which also takes time. Combining the two was probably a bit too much to ask.
    But overall I'd say we still had an interesting season, with pretty creative ideas and surprising results here and there. And the winner was consistently scoring well each round despite unclear situations here and there, making dte our deserved champion for the season.

    I'll be thinking about what to do for next season. Ideas are welcome, but let's keep them simple.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  7. #5467

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think I agree that either special rounds or a changing cardpool is a good idea, rather than both. Still, it was fun, thanks for running it, and congratulations to dte.

    I've got a couple of ideas I think are interesting:

    1. A mana-exempt banathon, where all cards that only produce mana* are legal and exempt from banning. So we get Lotuses and Workshops throughout, but not the super broken Vintage stuff, and the payoffs and counters to them will grow weaker as the season goes on.

    2. A historically growing cardpool, where we start with just the old sets legal, and then add a year or two's worth of cards each round. So each round we're seeing what 4CB might have been like at a certain point in time.

    *Admittedly, only produces mana isn't the easiest thing to define, plenty of obviously should-be-included cards (City of Traitors, any tapland) have non-mana abilities, so there's probably not a brilliant rules definition.

  8. #5468

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Thanks a lot Asthereal for all the organization!

    And I am very proud to win this season, it definitely wasnt easy.

    I agree it was ambitious to combine both rules and card pool changes. But it is good to be overambitious sometimes to see where the limit is, and each round was bringing a lot of novelty. I also think that 15 round is maybe a bit long, compared to 10-12?

    Otherwise both Silkster's idea, or PJim second idea sound great (I would still ban black lotus on PJim idea2).

  9. #5469

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra’s Factory, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Sinkhole
    3-3, T2 Emrakul or T2 sinkhole
    Sinkhole can't be cast until turn 3 cause it costs 3 mana.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    6. silkster: OTP I play Cutter, you play Dunes first, and I Crack. My 2/2 + 1/1 beats your 2/2.
    OTD you play tapped Needle and I lead with Gods' Eye. Cleansing Wildfire is bad for you (shuts off Hangarback and leaves 2/2 vs 2/2+1/1), so you play Hangarback X=1. Now if I Crack the Earth you can sacrifice Needle, then keep growing Hangarback with Dunes. I can't stop that. WL 3-3
    It doesn't affect the outcome, but Casting Wildfire on 2 doesn't shut off Hangarback. Needle has 2 uses and Wildfire stops you from playing Crack the Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Congratulations to dte for winning a second season in a row!
    Ever since Lab Man, Mistveil Plains, and Tel-Jilad Stylus, I figured this day might be coming. Congrats!
    Also, I've been trying to make Stronghold Gambit work for years. I even have them in paper. I can't believe I was beat to the punch!

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    I'll be thinking about what to do for next season. Ideas are welcome, but let's keep them simple.
    If we think creatures only will be too strong for too long, we could ban the top 4 or 5 decks each week, or we could start with an initial banlist. I for one am definitely more interested in the later rounds full of silly creatures that have never had their time in the spotlight and that everyone has to read when they get played.
    Long ago, I played a Vintage 3CB Bannathon where Lotus alone was immune to bans. After a few weeks, it was mostly Lotus+Lotus+threat, which was still pretty interesting, perhaps just because I was quite new to xCB. We could do a Vintage Bannathon with a large immune list like: Lotus, Moxen, Sol Ring, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb. I'm trying to think of others to add to the list but they're all just worse than the ones on the list. Even Ancient Tomb seems redundant.

  10. #5470
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I like the creatures-only idea to mix it up and allow some cards we haven't seen much.

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    It doesn't affect the outcome, but Casting Wildfire on 2 doesn't shut off Hangarback. Needle has 2 uses and Wildfire stops you from playing Crack the Earth.
    My mistake, I confused that card with Boom and thought it destroyed your own land as well (Hangarback X=1 needs 3).

  11. #5471

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    My mistake, I confused that card with Boom and thought it destroyed your own land as well (Hangarback X=1 needs 3).
    My last minute addition of Dunes of the Dead instead of any other land that enters untapped likely led to the confusion.

    Me. silkster: Sandstone Needle, Dunes of the Dead, Hangarback Walker, Cleansing Wildfire

    1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra’s Factory, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Sinkhole
    Faster LD wins. WW

    2. Wrath of Pie: Urza's Factory, Icatian Store, Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith
    Wrath has this as WL, but I'm not sure how I can win. I can certainly play for a draw by destroying the Factory or the Store, but Port can protect Maze and I'm not sure how I kill through it. DL?

    3. GoblinSmashmaster: Sandstone Needle, Goblin Lackey, Flame Slash, Morophon, the Boundless
    On the draw, I play Hangarback on turn 2 and play defense with it until I can pump it to 20/20. Hilariously, if you attack and then slash my token, my last minute switch to Dunes of the Dead means I can still make a threat! WW

    4. Reeplcheep: Dust Bowl, Dunes of the Dead, Thran Turbine, Retrofitter Foundry
    LD fast enough to hold you to one spell. WW

    5. dte: Geier Reach Sanitarium, sandstone needle, Stronghold Gambit, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    Man, I've been trying to make Stronghold Gambit work forever. Sulphur Vents + Ostracize was one plan, but it never got the chance to shine.
    LD wins on the play. On the draw, you activate Sanitarium, I discard my creature then kill your Sanitarium. I can also kill it even if you hold up Emrakul reshuffle. WD

    7. RoosterCocoa: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Brutal Cathar
    LD is always in time. WW

    8. maxx!: Treetop Village, Gruul Turf, Sandstone Needle, Dust Bowl
    I can't quite tell if Dunes of the Dead making a 2/2 is relevant here, though a basic in its spot certainly would have won.

    9. FTW: Stomping Ground, Skyshroud Cutter, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Crack the Earth
    LD race is WL. The Dune creature not quite big enough to hold the fort.

    10. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Havenwood Battleground, Llanowar mentor, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth WW
    11. PJim: Forest, Forest, Lush Growth, Thallid WL
    12. alphastryk: Westvale Abbey,Sand Silos,Sand Silos,Dust Bowl WW

  12. #5472
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Ideas so far:
    a) Vintage Bannathon with cards that produce only mana immune to bans. (I can define this, should work. LED for instance also discards your hand, so that can get banned, but not Grim Monoloth, as its untap ability only serves to produce more mana.)
    b) Creatures and lands only, top deck gets banned every round.
    c) Growing card pool, where every round another year of cards becomes legal (with or without banning top decks / with or without starting banned list).
    d) A standard tour, where every round we switch to the standard of the next year (f.i. 1998 standard was Mirage block, Tempest block and 5th Edition, round after would be Tempest block, Urza's block, 6th Edition, and so on). We can do this with or without a starting banned list as well.

    Am I missing an idea?
    Which of these sound like fun?
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  13. #5473

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ideas so far:
    a) Vintage Bannathon with cards that produce only mana immune to bans. (I can define this, should work. LED for instance also discards your hand, so that can get banned, but not Grim Monoloth, as its untap ability only serves to produce more mana.)
    I was thinking stick with the regular ban list to start (except the mana cards), as otherwise we'll just end up running through the various broken things on there before getting to a more balanced ground.

    c) Growing card pool, where every round another year of cards becomes legal (with or without banning top decks / with or without starting banned list).
    For this, I was intending to keep the regular banlist, but not banathon, as we'll have a regularly changing cardpool.

  14. #5474

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ideas so far:
    a) Vintage Bannathon with cards that produce only mana immune to bans. (I can define this, should work. LED for instance also discards your hand, so that can get banned, but not Grim Monoloth, as its untap ability only serves to produce more mana.)
    b) Creatures and lands only, top deck gets banned every round.
    c) Growing card pool, where every round another year of cards becomes legal (with or without banning top decks / with or without starting banned list).
    d) A standard tour, where every round we switch to the standard of the next year (f.i. 1998 standard was Mirage block, Tempest block and 5th Edition, round after would be Tempest block, Urza's block, 6th Edition, and so on). We can do this with or without a starting banned list as well.

    Am I missing an idea?
    Which of these sound like fun?
    For me, it is b and c > d >> a.

  15. #5475
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I like the creatures and lands version.

  16. #5476

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ideas so far:
    a) Vintage Bannathon with cards that produce only mana immune to bans. (I can define this, should work. LED for instance also discards your hand, so that can get banned, but not Grim Monoloth, as its untap ability only serves to produce more mana.)
    b) Creatures and lands only, top deck gets banned every round.
    c) Growing card pool, where every round another year of cards becomes legal (with or without banning top decks / with or without starting banned list).
    d) A standard tour, where every round we switch to the standard of the next year (f.i. 1998 standard was Mirage block, Tempest block and 5th Edition, round after would be Tempest block, Urza's block, 6th Edition, and so on). We can do this with or without a starting banned list as well.

    Am I missing an idea?
    Which of these sound like fun?
    a) should be limited to lands, otherwise it's all Lotus (and anti-Lotus) almost all the time, and that sounds miserable.
    b) is solid
    c) might be interesting
    d) is possibly too similar to Block

    I would pick b) or c).

  17. #5477

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    My vote goes for creatures and lands. Not really a fan of the growing card pool. The other two seem OK.
    b > a > d > c for me

    Also, big congrats dte (again)! You're starting to look unbeatable.

  18. #5478
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    a) should be limited to lands, otherwise it's all Lotus (and anti-Lotus) almost all the time, and that sounds miserable.

    I would pick b) or c).
    About a)-That was the point: having insane mana all the time, but slowly losing the good cards you can use it on.
    And I'm guessing the anti-Lotus stuff gets banned in the first two rounds anyway. Should make for an interesting season, I think.

    But anyway, so far the creatures and lands only season seems very popular.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  19. #5479

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I don't think I'll be participating next season. I'll go back to lurking.

  20. #5480

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by maxx! View Post
    Also, big congrats dte (again)! You're starting to look unbeatable.
    Thanks! But I think this season Tylert and Serguei were ahead most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhdk View Post
    I don't think I'll be participating next season. I'll go back to lurking.
    We'll miss you then! I shamelessly stole one of your decks concept for the last round.

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