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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #5301

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Then he can make more tokens. Takes you 3 turns to get back Grapeshot. Each cycle you take some damage.

    Grapeshot @ 1000 to kill the 4/4 and drop you to 1. Reepl library = {Skirk, Snoop, Grapeshot}

    Draw Grace. 1x Pact / Skirk
    Grace. Draw Pact. Attack to 8 / Snoop
    Draw Grace. Attack to 4 / Grapeshot to kill token.

    Next 4/4 will kill before 3rd Grapeshot.
    How is he packing my grapeshot and then pact-ing on his upkeep?

    I can grapeshot every turn but he can make tokens only every 4th turn…

  2. #5302
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Bomb can only ever blow up walker when its on 0 - Walker's CMC will always be 0 in play no matter what it was cast for. I think that might matter for Asthereal vs WoP?

  3. #5303
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Missing a few results, but assuming their opponents have their scores correct and assumong I calculated the scores between them correctly, here's standings for round 12:
    1. dte: 66 - 5,5
    2. silkster: 52 - 4,3
    3. alphastryk: 45 - 3,8
    4. PJim: 44 - 3,7
    5. Reeplcheep: 38 - 3,2
    6. FTW: 37 - 3,1
    7. Serguei: 36 - 3
    8. maxx!: 35 - 2,9
    9. RoosterCocoa: 30 - 2,5
    10. GoblinSmashmaster: 30 - 2,5
    11. Wrath of Pie: 25 - 2,1
    12. Asthereal (TO): 12 - 1
    13. jhhdk: 3 - 0,3

    Which leads to these bannings:
    Crystal Vein
    Grim monolith
    Mausoleum Wanderer
    Sea's Claim
    Steel Overseer
    Thorn of Amethys
    Trinisphere
    Urza's saga
    Vapor Snag

    And the season standings now look as follows:
    1. dte: 43,5
    2. silkster: 42
    3. Serguei: 41,9
    4. PJim: 41,4
    5. alphastryk: 37,8
    6. maxx!: 37,2
    7. FTW: 36
    8. GoblinSmashmaster: 35,5
    9. mattamort: 34,9
    10. RoosterCocoa: 30
    11. Tylert: 29,6
    12. Wrath of Pie: 26,7
    13. Reeplcheep: 24,4
    14. Asthereal (TO): 21,3
    15. jhhdk: 18,5
    16. Phasmoid: 17,1
    17. H: 10
    18. shiftyhomunculus: 3,1
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  4. #5304
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Bomb can only ever blow up walker when its on 0 - Walker's CMC will always be 0 in play no matter what it was cast for. I think that might matter for Asthereal vs WoP?
    Ah right. But it doesn't matter, I think.
    Bomb now doesn't blow up Bouncer and Walker at the same time, so it saves me a turn to draw and cast Bouncer if Wrath uses the Bomb to save his Walker.
    And when I get low on life, he can never tick up Bomb with Walker in play, as my discount StP would exile it.
    Same situation ends up being relevant: at some point Wrath will use Bomb EOT to blow up the Bouncer and then keep Porting my land for the draws.

    Funny how discount StP was mostly terrible, but here it saves me big time.
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  5. #5305
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    How is he packing my grapeshot and then pact-ing on his upkeep?

    I can grapeshot every turn but he can make tokens only every 4th turn…
    They can make 1 token every 2 turns (Pact + Grace), 2 tokens every 3 turns (2x Pact + Grace), or 3 tokens every 4th turn (Pact upkeep + 2x Pact + Grace). Here it is optimal to make just 1 token and draw Angel's Grace sooner.

    How do you Grapeshot every turn? To "go off" with Grapeshot it puts other cards back in library.

    T1 Mountain. Skirk
    T2 sac Skirk: Snoop (Library = Skirk)
    T3 Draw Skirk. Cast Skirk. sac Skirk: cast Skirk from library. Repeat x1000. Storm=1000, 0 mana floating
    Sac Skirk: float R, Library=Skirk
    Sac Snoop (copying Skirk ability in library): RR floating, Library = Skirk then Snoop
    Cast Grapeshot x1000. Library = Skirk, then Snoop, then Grapeshot

    That would take you 3 turns to draw and cast Grapeshot again

    If you go off slower
    T3 Draw Skirk. Cast Skirk. Pass
    T4 Loop Skirk x1000.
    Mountain + Skirk: RR, Library = Skirk
    Grapeshot. Library = Skirk then Grapeshot

    You would draw Grapeshot again in 2 turns but I don't see how you can every turn.

  6. #5306

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Reep disagrees with me and the two Titan decks. I gave the reasoning for believing I go 6-0:

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    I had forgotten that Snoop would be able to sac itself, but I don't think it matters.

    Mountain, Prospector / Plains, Ending (Prospector Sacs) (So who goes first is irrelevant)
    Prospector / Plateau, Gather (2 1/1s)
    (Prospector Sacs) Snoop (or Grapeshot for 1) / Ending (Snoop Sacs), Attack (or just Attack if you have no board)

    At no point do you have the spare mana to drop Prospector and Grapeshot in the same turn, so I think you can only clear a single token. From this point onwards I can just Ending Prospector every turn and win with a token.
    Edit: FTW did it better.

  7. #5307

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Both decks ar setup (titan full hand, Reep both creatures in play)
    Reep comboes, titan play grace. Titan on one life vs a snoop in play.
    Draw grace, pass.
    play skirk. Attack with snoop or not?

    If yes, pact and titan to block.
    next turn play grace, draw pact. cannot attack because of skirk.
    Play snoop. skirk cannot attack into titan.
    draw grace.
    Storm --> back to beginning.

    No attack. cannot play pact, otherwise would have to grace at upkeep and lose to a next turn grapeshot.

    As soon as titans decks are on 1 life from grapeshot with snoop in play vs no tokens, they do not have other play than grace every turn of Reeplcheep?

    Should be a DD - 2/2. And PJim's case is different as he has his token and there is a removal to prevent any storm.

  8. #5308

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I can cast snoops from the top of my gy guys. I don’t have to even cast grapeshot once he is at 1, I can just attack.
    T4: Grapeshot writhing board and getting Opponent to 1. My library: skirk, grapeshot. Opponent graces. Can’t immediately make more tokens or will die with grace in library on next upkeep.
    Opponent t4: redraws grace
    My t5: draw skirk. Attack for 2. If op pacts to block, they will need to grace on upkeep, draw pact and then will die to grapeshot for 1. So they have to keep gracing.

  9. #5309

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    silkster vs Serguei doesn't look right to me, neither's posted so I assume that's your judgment Asthereal?

    Serguei OTP
    14-20, 3 Hollows / Island, Snag 13-20
    13-12 / Snag, 12-12
    12-8 / Snag 11-8
    5-8, 3 Hollows / Snag 4-8
    Kill

    When silkster's OTP the Snags are enough, so I think it's 3-3

  10. #5310

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    silkster vs Serguei doesn't look right to me, neither's posted so I assume that's your judgment Asthereal?

    Serguei OTP
    14-20, 3 Hollows / Island, Snag 13-20
    13-12 / Snag, 12-12
    12-8 / Snag 11-8
    5-8, 3 Hollows / Snag 4-8
    Kill

    When silkster's OTP the Snags are enough, so I think it's 3-3
    I agree with PJim here for the 3-3. Does not change the bannings though.

  11. #5311
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    silkster vs Serguei doesn't look right to me, neither's posted so I assume that's your judgment Asthereal?

    Serguei OTP
    14-20, 3 Hollows / Island, Snag 13-20
    13-12 / Snag, 12-12
    12-8 / Snag 11-8
    5-8, 3 Hollows / Snag 4-8
    Kill

    When silkster's OTP the Snags are enough, so I think it's 3-3
    I misread Hollow One, I thought it reduced by 1, so you'd have to go to 10- to make them.
    I'll adjust the scores.
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  12. #5312
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Looks like the bannings are safe, so let's go. I'll check the last disagreements later.


    ROUND 13 OF SEASON 10: DEVIANT LEGACY BANNATHON has started.

    This round we play The Long Haul: Players start at 100 life. Effects that would make you win the game immediately instead do nothing.

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 13, so you can start sending me your decks.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 22nd of September at 11:00AM Central European Time.
    (That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Quicksand, Desert, Suq'Ata Lancer.
    So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S10R13 in the topic.
    Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deck building!
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  13. #5313
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I can cast snoops from the top of my gy guys.
    Snoop never hits the graveyard. But if you mean library, Snoop needs to be in play for you to be able to cast goblins from the top of your library. Snoop can't help cast itself from the top of your library as it won't have that ability until it is on the battlefield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I don’t have to even cast grapeshot once he is at 1, I can just attack.
    This is true. Your Grapeshot copies will reduce the life total to 1 and then stop working on the life total because of Grace. So if there's no blockers you could win by attacking, assuming one of your guys is alive at that moment and Grace isn't active. If you combo on turn 3, your deck will be (top) Prosp, Snoop, Grapeshot (bottom). If you combo turn 4 you don't need to sac Snoop and will have (top) Prosp, Grapeshot (bottom). Snoop could attack, but of course only as long as there's no blocker and Grace isn't active. I don't see this working yet, but the idea stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    T4: Grapeshot writhing board and getting Opponent to 1. My library: skirk, grapeshot. Opponent graces. Can’t immediately make more tokens or will die with grace in library on next upkeep.
    Opponent t4: redraws grace
    My t5: draw skirk. Attack for 2. If op pacts to block, they will need to grace on upkeep, draw pact and then will die to grapeshot for 1. So they have to keep gracing.
    Okay let's break this up in parts:

    (OTD)
    G1 Plains, cast one Pact
    R1 Mountain, Prosp
    G2 Cast Grace on upkeep, draw Pact, Grace now in library
    R2 Sac Prosp to cast Snoop
    G3 Draw Grace, attack for 4 (R=16)
    R3 Draw Prosp, cast Prosp, attack with Snoop (G=18)
    G4 Wait
    R4 Go off without saccing Snoop, killing the titan and trying to kill Gobbo/Rooster, in response they cast Grace. Your library: Prosp, then Grapeshot. G=1.
    So they go to 1 life and their blocker dies. You would like to proceed to attack with Snoop and kill them, but Grace stops that, so you pass.
    G5 Draw Grace, wait (if Pact here, they have to Grace next turn and die to your combo the turn after, as then you'll draw Grapeshot again)
    R5 Draw Prosp, cast Prosp (can't cast from your library as it's not your main phase). If you attack with Snoop, they cast Pact and block it. Snoop dies and goes to the bottom of your library. You can't go off for a few turns then. So you wait. Gobbo/Rooster can't cast Pact and Grace next turn, as you'd be able to go off in your next turn and they won't have Grace ready then, so they have to wait.
    G6 Again have to wait.
    R6 Draw Grapeshot. Attack with Prosp alone. They have to cast Pact to block. Then you cast Prosp from the library and go off. They have to Grace or they die, and now they can't Grace on their next upkeep so they die to the Pact trigger.
    So Reep seems to be right about the result. Looks like this will be 6-0.

    FTW and other spielmeisters, what did I miss?


    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    Reep disagrees with me and the two Titan decks. I gave the reasoning for believing I go 6-0:

    Mountain, Prospector / Plains, Ending (Prospector Sacs) (So who goes first is irrelevant)
    Prospector / Plateau, Gather (2 1/1s)
    (Prospector Sacs) Snoop (or Grapeshot for 1) / Ending (Snoop Sacs), Attack (or just Attack if you have no board)

    At no point do you have the spare mana to drop Prospector and Grapeshot in the same turn, so I think you can only clear a single token. From this point onwards I can just Ending Prospector every turn and win with a token.
    Here things look less frosty for Reep, I think.

    (OTP)
    R1 Mountain, Prosp
    P1 Plains, Ending for 1 on Prosp, R sacs Prosp in response so it doesn't get exiled
    R2 Draw Prosp, cast Prosp
    P2 Draw Ending, play Plateau, cast Townsfolk, make 2 1/1 tokens
    R3 Sac Prosp, cast Snoop
    P3 Draw Townsfolk, cast Ending for 2 on Snoop. R sacs Snoop in response so it doesn't get exiled. Attack for 2, R=18
    From here, PJim uses Ending every time to kill Snoop. If Snoop doesn't land, he can Townsfolk again for more tokens.
    I don't see a way out of this for Reep.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  14. #5314

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    You missed that the pact decks can just never play pact, and simply grace at each of Reep's upkeeps.

    This MU is really DD.

  15. #5315
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    You missed that the pact decks can just never play pact, and simply grace at each of Reep's upkeeps.

    This MU is really DD.
    Right. Attacking and Grapeshot all only happen during Reep's turn, so just casting Grace during Reep's upkeep every turn and never trying anything else should do it.

    EDIT: Google Spreadsheet should be good now. Scores there are the right ones.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 09-21-2021 at 08:03 AM.
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  16. #5316

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Is midnight hunt legal?

  17. #5317
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Is midnight hunt legal?
    Not yet. Next round it will be. Official release date is September 25th.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  18. #5318

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Not yet. Next round it will be. Official release date is September 25th.
    I guess we should consider banning curse of silence from it. It looks like it is between thoughtseize and Cabal therapy.

  19. #5319

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Me. silkster: Island, Mausoleum Wanderer, Vapor Snag, Sea's Claim

    1. Asthereal (TO): Tundra, Mishra's Factory, Waterfront Bouncer, Blazing Hope WW
    2. Reeplcheep: Mountain, Grapeshot, Conspicous Snoop, Skirk Prospector
    If I'm reading this correctly, it looks like a turn 3 combo. In any case, Sea's Claim doing work. WW
    3. Wrath of Pie: Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Hangarback Walker, Ratchet Bomb
    This looks complicated. I'm guessing that I have to counter Ratchet Bomb every turn but I'm not sure. I can definitely see how resources are likely to clash with no advantage on either side. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I see now that Wrath didn't lay out the math either. I might try at some point, but all 4 cards are useful against me, so I'm not too hopeful.
    4. PJim: Plains, Plateau, Prismatic Ending, Gather the Townsfolk
    The townsfolk gather so quickly, so I have to counter them all. Alas, redundant white sources hold back the flood. DD

    5. alphastryk: Crystal Vein, Thorn of Amethyst, Steel Overseer, Steel Overseer
    I think this is WL, but I'm certainly no stranger to mistakes. On the play:
    T1: Island, Wanderer; Steel Overseer would get bounced to no benefit, so Vein -> Thorn -> countered by Wanderer.
    T2: Draw and play Wanderer; Draw and play Vein, but Thorn is in library. Playing Overseer will see it bounced for no benefit, so pass.
    T3: Attack for 1, and we're now in effectively the same state as T1 except I've dealt a damage.

    I figured it out! I can only counter instants and sorceries! I'll leave this here for your amusement though.
    double edit: Oh, and dte informed me. Thanks! Now I really have to leave it because there's a reference back to this nonsense.

    6. RoosterCocoa: Plains, Angel's Grace, Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan WW
    7. jhhdk: Sandstone Needle, Manamorphose, Mindbreak Trap, Grapeshot WW
    8. dte: Crystal vein, Trinisphere, Grim monolith, Urza's saga LL
    10. maxx!: Sandstone Needle, Manamorphose, Manamorphose, Grapeshot WW
    11. Serguei: Hollow One, Hollow One, Hollow One, Street Wraith WL
    12. FTW: Underground Sea, Inkmoth Nexus, Sea's Claim, Mesmeric Fiend WW
    13. GoblinSmashmaster: Pact of the Titan, Pact of the Titan, Karakas, Angel's Grace WW


    I actually came back to look on Wednesday night this week, but we were running a bit late. I was excited for my submission despite only having a very short time to think about it. I'm glad I finally looked over the entries, cause this week's submissions were great! Storm with Manamorphose or Snoop Loops, Prison with Thorn or Trinisphere, Aggro Hollow Ones, Aggro Pacts that can also play prison by looping Angel's Grace, and some creative individual choices like Blazing Hope, Prismatic Ending, and Mesmeric Fiend where exile matters. I'm really glad that Leyline of the Void wasn't legal, cause that would have made this round really boring.

    I thought of Sea's Claim pretty quickly and ended up getting quite lucky that it won so many games on its own. I didn't love Vapor Snag, but I couldn't really find anything on one mana that felt right. At least an endless cycle of bounce+recast would be in my favour. I didn't prepare for the mirror either, and I feel lucky to win that one. I normally try to think of about 4 to 6 decks and see how they would do against each other, but this week I came up blank. I tried looping Orim's Chant, but it was really hard to actually win, and it just always lost on the draw. Had I thought of Angel's Grace, I'd have been really tempted to play it. I didn't think of Manamorphose until a few hours ago while swimming. Then again, I didn't realize you needed two Manamorphoses.

    I tried really hard to make Trinisphere work. I knew that Crystal Vein was excellent here, but with SSG, ESG, and Chancellor of the Tangle gone, it was hard to find anything else.
    Trinisphere, Crystal Vein, Mox Diamond, Dryad Arbor was close, but Dryad Arbor was banned too.
    Trinisphere, Crystal Vein, Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Forge was close, but that Chancellor is banned too.
    Trinisphere, Crystal Vein, Chrome Mox, Eternal Scourge was close, but Eternal Scourge needs some colour.

    I'm embarrassed that I didn't find Grim Monolith. Like, really embarrassed. I suppose it's worth noting that that's only 52 cards and I don't even remember what the others should be aside from maybe another 2 Wurmcoils and 2 Caverns of Souls, so it's been a while. It's also really outdated now, I think. I don't think I would have found Urza's Saga anyway. Actually, now I'm wondering if I did find Grim Monolith but couldn't find a fourth card to make it work. Last week was too long ago!

  20. #5320

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Wanderer cannot counter artifacts ;)

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