4 Card Blind

[Wrath of Pie]

When will new kamigawa be legal here? Will we pre-ban this monstruosity or allow for the ban to happen organically? I, for one, welcome our LD overlords.

Boseiju, Who Endures

Requiring colored mana is actually enough of an issue that it is worse than Field of Ruin for LD purposes. (Then again, FTW succeeded on his mission to get Assassin's Trophy on the base ban list which I thought was fine, so who knows.)

[Nasst]

Requiring colored mana is actually enough of an issue that it is worse than Field of Ruin for LD purposes. (Then again, FTW succeeded on his mission to get Assassin's Trophy on the base ban list which I thought was fine, so who knows.)

Field of ruin is banned though, isn't it? Regardless, with our current card pool, boseiju seems much better, since it's a lot easier to do a turn earlier. With our current ban list, for example, cracking field of ruin T2 would require sacrificing a land to get enough mana, and the same isn't true of boseiju.

[PJim]

Field of Ruin is on the base ban list too, adding a green mana requirement to make it also a Naturalize isn't clearly making it weaker. Seeing it as practically halfway between two banned cards in Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy makes a ban feel logical.

New sets become legal in the round that starts after their official release. With new Kamigawa that'll be round 15 (assuming we hit every week). I personally feel that for these banathon types it's a bit strange to introduce new sets midway through. This is a particularly obvious example of a card that'll dominate the meta week 15 (either by being incredible, or by pushing everyone onto basics), and if it had been legal at the start would've certainly been banned by now. Even if we're not convinced it belongs straight on the main ban list, I'd suggest a ban for this season.

[alphastryk]

Field of Ruin is on the base ban list too, adding a green mana requirement to make it also a Naturalize isn't clearly making it weaker. Seeing it as practically halfway between two banned cards in Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy makes a ban feel logical.

New sets become legal in the round that starts after their official release. With new Kamigawa that'll be round 15 (assuming we hit every week). I personally feel that for these banathon types it's a bit strange to introduce new sets midway through. This is a particularly obvious example of a card that'll dominate the meta week 15 (either by being incredible, or by pushing everyone onto basics), and if it had been legal at the start would've certainly been banned by now. Even if we're not convinced it belongs straight on the main ban list, I'd suggest a ban for this season.

Banning it for this season makes sense to me, then we can play with it in other formats to see how good it ultimately is

[Asthereal]

When will new kamigawa be legal here? Will we pre-ban this monstruosity or allow for the ban to happen organically? I, for one, welcome our LD overlords.

Boseiju, Who Endures

I usually allow new sets when they officially launch, but these days launches have become rather messy.
Arena launch is the 10th of february, prereleases are the 11th through the 17th and tabletop release is the 18th.
I am inclined to follow the tabletop release, as that's "proper" magic, to me. So I'm leaning to the 18th.

It does look good, but it needs two mana, and most mana accelleration is out already. Also, it doesn't hit basics.
So we can play around it, and OTP we should get to our two-drop. It might be fine for the last round or two we might have left in the running season.

[silkster]

When will new kamigawa be legal here? Will we pre-ban this monstruosity or allow for the ban to happen organically? I, for one, welcome our LD overlords.

Boseiju, Who Endures

If this card had already been released, I would have put it on the Original Ban List. We're just now running out of the last dregs of land hate because every way to kill lands that doesn't depend on connecting with a 1/1 has been banned, and I welcome the incoming Jurassic era. Sticking to basics is a big cost right now, cause you're priced out of 3 drops and higher (or you get one slow 3 drop). It would make the final week a rock-paper-scissors of basic > boseiju > non-basics > basics. I'm strongly in favour of banning it. I also think it would be in spirit of a banathon not to add the new set at all, and it's not too disruptive since it would only potentially shake up the very last week.

[Wrath of Pie]

If this card had already been released, I would have put it on the Original Ban List. We're just now running out of the last dregs of land hate because every way to kill lands that doesn't depend on connecting with a 1/1 has been banned, and I welcome the incoming Jurassic era. Sticking to basics is a big cost right now, cause you're priced out of 3 drops and higher (or you get one slow 3 drop). It would make the final week a rock-paper-scissors of basic > boseiju > non-basics > basics. I'm strongly in favour of banning it. I also think it would be in spirit of a banathon not to add the new set at all, and it's not too disruptive since it would only potentially shake up the very last week.

Thinking about it, it's basically Trophy that can't hit basics in a format which actively makes basic lands rather poor choices. Considering that it has natural synergy with bouncelands, I think the ban is pretty much forced. (No Elixir effect needed, hitting one nonbasic is probably enough to do the trick. (This probably shows the foresight of the Elixir of Immortality base ban, as much as I liked Elixir.)

[FTW]

Overall I think Boseiju is weaker than Trophy and some other choices. Is Boseiju strong enough to be permabanned? I don't know. But would it have been banned by Round 11 of this bannathon? Probably yes. So then I think it should be pre-banned. It exceeds the power level of what we're playing with at this stage.

[FTW]

3. Reeplcheep: Karakas, Azorius Chancery, Alirios, Enraptured, Inquisitive Puppet

6. FTW: Havenwood Battleground, Copperline Gorge, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger I make the 3/2 on my turn 3 but you can only double ping starting on t4. You are on the back foot since you can’t block with either creature if you want to double ping. WL

On your play you get to attack with the new tokens, but you also don't get to block with Alirios & bounce (will be tapped), so I can get more 3/3 attacks through too.

You're right that I can't win, but I think I can manoever around being put on the back foot.

Reeplcheep OTP
T1 Karakas, Puppet / tapped Battleground
T2 Chancery tapped / Mountain, sacrifice Battleground, Anurid Scavenger
T3 Karakas, Alirios tapped. 3/2 token / redraw Battleground, tapped Battleground, Fanatic
T4 Alirios doesn't untap. Attack with token. Fanatic chumps & pings you [R=19] / redraw & play Fanatic. Anurid attacks [R=16] EOT Karakas bounces Alirios
T5 Alirios tapped. 2nd 3/2 token. 1 token attacks [F=17] / upkeep ping untapped token, redraw Fanatic, ping again (dead), Anurid attacks [R=13]
T6 Alirios doesn't untap. Attack with token [F=14] / redraw & play Fanatic. Anurid attacks [R=10] EOT Karakas bounces Alirios

You can stall by chumping with Puppet, but I don't think you can actually get me on the back foot here, because I can also eventually chump with Fanatic again & ping for the last damages before you have enough to swarm around him.

If you stop attacking at a high enough life, then I can't attack back either and I have to use up pings to match your token production (instead of letting you get some tokens and racing them with pings), so we would draw.

WD 4-1?

Edit: If you don't attack with the 3/2 on turn 4, I can double ping on my turn 4 and freely attack with my 3/3, so you can't put me on the back foot that way (and you still have to bounce the 2/3 before it untaps, otherwise you miss a turn on token production)

[Asthereal]

Thinking about it, it's basically Trophy that can't hit basics in a format which actively makes basic lands rather poor choices. Considering that it has natural synergy with bouncelands, I think the ban is pretty much forced. (No Elixir effect needed, hitting one nonbasic is probably enough to do the trick. (This probably shows the foresight of the Elixir of Immortality base ban, as much as I liked Elixir.)

Trophy also hits creatures, so they're not comparable.
But there seems to be quite a bit of support for a ban, so if there's no opposition, I'll ban it before it becomes legal.


For round 11:
Results from maxx! and alphastryk aren't in yet, but I entered their opponent's scores for the games and did some napkin math for their h2h.
There were two disagreements: FTW has addressed his disagreement with Reep, so there's just the disagreement between Wrath and Gobbo left.

Considering all this, it looks like I can somehwat safely lock in bannings for round 12. These are out:
Ancient Spring
Bazaar of Baghdad
Gemstone Mine
Goldmire Bridge
Hunted Horror
Meddling Mage
Priest of Fell Rites
Priest of the Blessed Graf
Ruins of Trokair
Serra's Emissary
Tocatli Honor Guard

[dte]

Trophy also hits creatures, so they're not comparable.
But there seems to be quite a bit of support for a ban, so if there's no opposition, I'll ban it before it becomes legal.

It does not hit creatures, but on the other hand can turn itself into a land, making it (and play green) the best counter strategy.
And when one card is both powerful and the best at opposing itself, we enter mental misstep madness.

I also second that in the future, not entering new sets into banathons seems a good idea.

[Asthereal]

It does not hit creatures, but on the other hand can turn itself into a land, making it (and play green) the best counter strategy.
And when one card is both powerful and the best at opposing itself, we enter mental misstep madness.

I also second that in the future, not entering new sets into banathons seems a good idea.

If everybody prefers it, we could keep the new set out of this season entirely, and only allow it from next season onwards. So far I haven't done this, because new sets arrive all the time, and it also shakes things up a bit, which can help keep a season exciting, but as it stands, the new set would only be legal for the last round anyway, so perhaps we can keep it out entirely. Let me know what you guys think.

Meantime, let's get round 12 going.


ROUND 12 OF SEASON 11: LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON has started.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 12, so you can start sending me your decks.

DEADLINE: Wednesday the 2nd of February at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Quicksand, Dauthi Slayer, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S11R12 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding!

[silkster]

For a season of individual deviant rounds, adding sets seems fine. For banthons, I like preserving the decreasing nature of the card pool.

[FTW]

I think this is an easy win for Wrath on the play. Once you're threatening to bounce the Gearhulk, you can safely charge storage lands at end of turn. Wrath can wait until turn 8, then Flayer the Welder with UU floating to bounce the Gearhulk if it comes out. (I think Wrath only takes 9 damage while waiting, but in any case it's not close to lethal.) Then Welder + Flayer stay back to block, and Borrower eventually comes down and attacks 7 times.

Until Flayer mana, GoblinSmashmaster can attack with both creatures for a faster clock. Gearhulk isn't forced until Wrath tries to stop the 1/1s.

Then Mind Flayer targeting Goblin Welder -> sac Neonate -> Weld in Noxious Gearhulk -> ETB trigger kills Flayer. +3 life. Stealing Welder is countered -> Wrath has 0 creatures -> Welder + Gearhulk keep attacking

If Wrath waits longer to have UU to bounce the Gearhulk with ETB trigger on the stack, the ETB trigger still resolves killing Flayer and countering the steal. Wrath still has 0 creatures. Then Brazen Boi takes a few turns to cast and can't block ground creatures. I don't see how Wrath can win.

Bouncing Welder instead (in response to Neonate sac) doesn't help because then Great Furnace is still in play. So Mind Flayer would resolve (target fizzled), then Welder is replayed and Welds in Gearhulk killing Mind Flayer.

[dte]

Until Flayer mana, GoblinSmashmaster can attack with both creatures for a faster clock. Gearhulk isn't forced until Wrath tries to stop the 1/1s.

Then Mind Flayer targeting Goblin Welder -> sac Neonate -> Weld in Noxious Gearhulk -> ETB trigger kills Flayer. +3 life. Stealing Welder is countered -> Wrath has 0 creatures -> Welder + Gearhulk keep attacking

If Wrath waits longer to have UU to bounce the Gearhulk with ETB trigger on the stack, the ETB trigger still resolves killing Flayer and countering the steal. Wrath still has 0 creatures. Then Brazen Boi takes a few turns to cast and can't block ground creatures. I don't see how Wrath can win.

Bouncing Welder instead (in response to Neonate sac) doesn't help because then Great Furnace is still in play. So Mind Flayer would resolve (target fizzled), then Welder is replayed and Welds in Gearhulk killing Mind Flayer.

Once there are 3 counters on cove, Welder cannot attack or dust bowl takes the game. Then wait for 13 counters, destroy the land, bounce and steal.

[Nasst]

I messaged Asthereal already, but asking here in case any of the veterans know: It's ok to change decklists before the deadline? I submitted a deck that is, let's say... Barely functional, lmao.

[dte]

I messaged Asthereal already, but asking here in case any of the veterans know: It's ok to change decklists before the deadline? I submitted a deck that is, let's say... Barely functional, lmao.

Yes it is, no problem :)

[Nasst]

Yes it is, no problem :)

Thanks! If anyone was wondering, it was:
Nomads en-kor, Daru Spiritualist, Starlit Sanctum, Concealed Courtyard

Yes, I'm not smart, lmao.

[dte]

Thanks! If anyone was wondering, it was:
Nomads en-kor, Daru Spiritualist, Starlit Sanctum, Concealed Courtyard

Yes, I'm not smart, lmao.

Yes, wouldn't work too well :/

[Asthereal]

I messaged Asthereal already, but asking here in case any of the veterans know: It's ok to change decklists before the deadline? I submitted a deck that is, let's say... Barely functional, lmao.

I was out giving chess training. But it's cool. I'll ignore your first entry and post your new one.

I am sad, however, that I don't get to beat your deck in infinite+x turns, killing your combo after it goes off, and then attacking with my awesome threat for a googolplex amount of turns, and then a few extra.
(Actually, I lied. I can stop your combo before it goes off. But it's more fun to assume I can't and we'll play the actual maximum amount of turns to win a game of 4CB.)