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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #3461
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    True. Maybe Words of War does work then. I can't remember if it came up in any previous rounds.

  2. #3462

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.
    Always the first rule, because draws can be replaced. (That is the difference between Lab Maniac being banworthy and just a vanilla 2/2.)

    Make it a vial emblem named Aether Emblem that taps. I don't think this is a problem at all.
    Emblems can't tap, because tapping is a status associated with permanents. Luckily, you can just limit the activation instead.

    I don't remember specifics, but I remember 3 cards seeming like too many when dealing with cards with buyback, or with activated abilities that make tokens or that give +1/+1 counters. It only gets worse when you start looping those, even if you're only buying back your cards once.
    If you get to the point that buyback is relevant, most hands have already lost. (Elixir loops are tricky though, because a compact 2-card win condition means that it pairs with disruption and the low mana investment means it gets going quickly.)

    Honestly, I can't even remember if I've ever played Backbuild. I think I might have played one round once. Impatience, Antagonism, and Copper Tabled are just cards that I own, two of which sat in my trade binder for years after I rare-drafted them.
    Those are Backbuild staples. I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out why.

    Wait, what common from Zendikar Rising beats those broken decks?
    I won't spoil it for you, it is funnier if you look it up yourself. (Trust me, it's worth it.)

  3. #3463

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Well, in a normal magic game, dredge does not work with an empty library, but words of war does.
    I think there was a round with island sanctuary, it seems more similar to words of war (but still different).
    Yeah, Season 6 Round 8 saw two Island Sanctuary decks which worked just fine as far as everyone was concerned and is a replacement effect the same as as Words of War. I think the reason we've never played Words is that getting to 3 mana for something that does nothing until next turn and requires more mana later on hasn't been good enough. I don't think I would have played them in the Peasant rounds had they been uncommon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Always the first rule, because draws can be replaced. (That is the difference between Lab Maniac being banworthy and just a vanilla 2/2.)

    Emblems can't tap, because tapping is a status associated with permanents. Luckily, you can just limit the activation instead.

    I won't spoil it for you, it is funnier if you look it up yourself. (Trust me, it's worth it.)
    Oh yeah, Lab Man has been replacing many draws all this time!

    I don't think we ruin anything by making it tap (issues with Stasis?), but yeah, it could be "activate this ability only if you haven't activated it since your last untap step".

    I saw another comment mentioning the card type and the required ability, so I did a search and saw it. I was thinking it had to be something like Mother Bear.

  4. #3464
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I asked about this a while ago with morphs. I think the conclusion is that all information is public. I think a good example is Mountain, Mountain, Goblin Piker, Lightning Bolt against Mountain, City of Traitors, Skirk Marauder, Scornful Egotist. When I asked, I was shut down by someone who said there's always a best line of play, but at least in the context of 4CB there is not. I'll play out one morph and start attacking with it. Do you bolt it or block? Depends what I did, which depends what you think I would do.

    I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.
    Morph
    The thing with Morph is that it doesn't even matter whether 4CB makes that card known or not. If you morph one guy, the opponent still has perfect information about the other 3 cards, and can extrapolate which card got morphed. But I like to think that all information is always known, even when it's not meant to be known, because otherwise we can't play optimally. And we have to in order to make the format work.

    The draw step
    As far as I know, the rule is that you draw a card during the draw step, and when you can't, you simply don't lose. So cards or effects that are worded "if you would draw a card, instead of drawing so and so happens instead" won't do anything on an empty library, as you weren't about to draw a card as there isn't a card to draw. Lab Man works because it's worded slightly differently ("if you would draw a card but can't, instead you win", so {drawing a card while you can't} is the part that gets replaced, and that totally works in 4CB. If it had said "instead of losing the game, you win the game" it would not have worked, as now the losing part is what's being replaced, but that wasn't going to happen anyway, so it cannot be replaced.

    The Vial round
    So what do we do? Skip this idea? Or make it a token that has indestructible or shroud or something?
    It has caused so much discussion already I feel like we should skip it for now.


    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    Oh yeah, Lab Man has been replacing many draws all this time!
    Explained above.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  5. #3465

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Morph
    The thing with Morph is that it doesn't even matter whether 4CB makes that card known or not. If you morph one guy, the opponent still has perfect information about the other 3 cards, and can extrapolate which card got morphed. But I like to think that all information is always known, even when it's not meant to be known, because otherwise we can't play optimally. And we have to in order to make the format work.

    The draw step
    As far as I know, the rule is that you draw a card during the draw step, and when you can't, you simply don't lose. So cards or effects that are worded "if you would draw a card, instead of drawing so and so happens instead" won't do anything on an empty library, as you weren't about to draw a card as there isn't a card to draw. Lab Man works because it's worded slightly differently ("if you would draw a card but can't, instead you win", so {drawing a card while you can't} is the part that gets replaced, and that totally works in 4CB. If it had said "instead of losing the game, you win the game" it would not have worked, as now the losing part is what's being replaced, but that wasn't going to happen anyway, so it cannot be replaced.

    The Vial round
    So what do we do? Skip this idea? Or make it a token that has indestructible or shroud or something?
    It has caused so much discussion already I feel like we should skip it for now.
    I guess the answer to the Morph question is that you know what's in their hand at all times, which is the new information to me. I didn't know it worked that way, but that's just me.

    You can definitely use Words of War with an empty library in regular Magic. Words of War doesn't care or even know whether your attempt to draw a card was going to be successful. And Lab Man says "If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it," which is the same as "if you would draw a card" but with an extra condition. There's no way to make Lab Man work and not make Words of War also work. This is also consistent with Island Sanctuary.

    The "problem" with Vial and the reason for so much discussion is that there are so many easy solutions. I honestly can't tell what's wrong with allowing and emblem to tap, but it doesn't matter because I think we're all agreed on:
    • You start the game with a Special Vial emblem with "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a charge counter on Special Vial." and " You may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield with cmc equal to the number of charge counters on Special Vial. Activate this ability only if you have not activated it since your last untap step."

  6. #3466

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Emblems are not permanents, so they cannot be tapped/untapped. Pretty simple, actually.

  7. #3467

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Emblems are not permanents, so they cannot be tapped/untapped. Pretty simple, actually.
    But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.

    May I take your no-comment on my proposed once-per-turn-cycle non-tapping vial to mean that it's agreeable to you? Which would mean that there's no bottleneck and any continuation of this conversation is just to get it into my thick skull why it would be a problem to let an emblem have a tapped status. I really don't see it.

  8. #3468
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.
    As a precedent, there was some confusion and even heated arguments (cannot remember nor see why) when enchantment could first be tapped (I think with Tempest), but it changed literally nothing, or at least I cannot remember anything it did change.

  9. #3469
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I am waiting for the day Wizards decides to print

    2UUU - Time Twist
    Instant
    Tap target player
    (Tapped players cannot attack or block with creatures, play lands, or cast non-instant spells without flash. Players untap during their untap step.)

  10. #3470

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I am waiting for the day Wizards decides to print

    2UUU - Time Twist
    Instant
    Tap target player
    (Tapped players cannot attack or block with creatures, play lands, or cast non-instant spells without flash. Players untap during their untap step.)
    That’s cutting pretty hard into whites colour pie. That’s essentially an Orin’s chant.

  11. #3471

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.
    Comp Rules says no:

    110.5. A permanent’s status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two
    possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out.
    Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.
    110.5a Status is not a characteristic, though it may affect a permanent’s characteristics.
    110.5b Permanents enter the battlefield untapped, unflipped, face up, and phased in unless a spell or
    ability says otherwise.
    110.5c A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if
    that status is not relevant to it.
    Example: Dimir Doppelganger says “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a
    graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.” It
    becomes a copy of Jushi Apprentice, a flip card. Through use of Jushi Apprentice’s
    ability, this creature flips, making it a copy of Tomoya the Revealer with the Dimir
    Doppelganger ability. If this permanent then becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear, it will
    retain its flipped status even though that has no relevance to Runeclaw Bear. If its copy
    ability is activated again, this time targeting a Nezumi Shortfang card (another flip
    card), this permanent’s flipped status means it will have the characteristics of
    Stabwhisker the Odious (the flipped version of Nezumi Shortfang) with the Dimir
    Doppelganger ability.
    110.5d Only permanents have status. Cards not on the battlefield do not. Although an exiled card
    may be face down, this has no correlation to the face-down status of a permanent. Similarly,
    cards not on the battlefield are neither tapped nor untapped, regardless of their physical state.
    tl;dr version: "Tap this emblem" is an unpayable cost, because emblems can't have status.

  12. #3472
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Comp Rules says no:

    tl;dr version: "Tap this emblem" is an unpayable cost, because emblems can't have status.
    Emblem: "At the begining of your upkeep you can choose to put a vial token on this emblem. 0: You may put a creature with a cmc equal to or lesser than the number of vial tokens on this emblem into play. play this ability only if you haven't played it since your last upkeep"
    We don't care about rules, we just use this and no one can interact with the emblem or the tokens on the emblem at all.

  13. #3473
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Not all results are in, but I looked at most of the games, and I think the current standing should be correct.
    So here's the standings for the final round:

    1. Reeplcheep: 42 - 3,8
    2. silkster: 41 - 3,7
    3. FTW: 38 - 3,5
    3. maxx!: 38 - 3,5
    5. dte: 34 - 3,1
    6. Tylert: 30 - 2,7
    7. GoblinSmashmaster: 29 - 2,6
    8. Wrath of Pie: 28 - 2,5
    8. alphastryk: 28 - 2,5
    10. Asthereal (TO): 27 - 2,5
    11. H: 26 - 2,4
    12. jhhdk: 10 - 0,9

    Which totally irrelevantly leads to these bannings:
    Acidic Slime
    Cauldron Familiar
    Dismember
    Force Spike
    Orcish Lumberjack
    Pharika’s Chosen
    Witch’s Oven
    Zulaport Duelist

    But more importantly, this leads to these final standings for the season:
    1. silkster: 48,5 - Congrats to silk for winning this season!!
    2. dte: 48,2
    3. maxx!: 40,7
    4. FTW: 39,8
    5. Asthereal (TO): 31,1
    6. alphastryk: 30,4
    7. GoblinSmashmaster: 30,2
    8. Wrath of Pie: 29,4
    9. Reeplcheep: 28,1
    10. Tylert: 28
    11. H: 23,4
    12. jhhdk: 5,8
    13. Karshtakavaar: 2,6

    I have to say this was the tightest race we've had so far. It's been close before, but not this close for this long a time. Every round silk and dte kept taking the top spot from eachother, and I feel like our arbitrary 12 round finish line robbed them from many more oportunities to keep clawing at eachother. Behind our two clearly strongest for the season, maxx! and FTW fought for third place, which maxx! ended up grabbing by again a close margin. I seem to be leading the rest of the pack.

    During the coming week I'll be building the next season, so stay tuned!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  14. #3474

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Eighth place is apparently my new residence of choice.

  15. #3475
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Eighth place is apparently my new residence of choice.
    I seem to remember you winning the previous season of Deviant Legacy, so I have high hopes for you in the next one.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  16. #3476

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Already working on Canadian Backbuild. Hopefully the curse of the commons doesn't follow me.

  17. #3477

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year everyone.

    I was away from the boards for holiday stuff, but it looks like my results for the last round were already calculated. The only one that I wasn't quite sure about was me vs Asthereal, since he can pump Rootwalla to make combat math hard. There are a lot of lines and I didn't have time to explore them all. 6-0 me might be right, but if anybody feels like really digging deep into that matchup, feel free.

    Deviant Legacy looks fun. When should we start?

  18. #3478

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    I have to say this was the tightest race we've had so far. It's been close before, but not this close for this long a time. Every round silk and dte kept taking the top spot from eachother, and I feel like our arbitrary 12 round finish line robbed them from many more oportunities to keep clawing at eachother. Behind our two clearly strongest for the season, maxx! and FTW fought for third place, which maxx! ended up grabbing by again a close margin. I seem to be leading the rest of the pack.
    Happy New Year, everyone! That was a crazy season, with tight races for first, third, and fifth. I feel kind of relieved that it's over. I was curious to see the information visualized, so I put it into graphical form graphical form here. It was a bit hard to see, so I removed the two latecomers (for whom a running total makes little sense) and translated the scores down so that they average to zero. I find the resulting graph easier to read. It really was back and forth for a while there. After round 4, there was only one round where we didn't trade top spot.

  19. #3479
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Okay guys, apologies for the delay, but I had less time than expected and there are too many ideas.
    I have made a selection and came to 30 cool ideas for Deviant rounds that should be interesting enough, based on your suggestions and feedback.
    So I suggest we do two seasons of 15 rounds. Everybody cool with that?

    Here's what I have in mind:

    Season 9 - Deviant Legacy, part 2:
    (We start with the Legacy banned list. There may be additional bannings each round.)

    1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).
    2. Dream Halls: Rather than pay the mana cost for a spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell.
    Additional banning: Progenitus
    3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.
    4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.
    5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal artifact token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds... )
    6. Impatience: At the beginning of each player’s end step, if that player didn’t cast a spell this turn, Impatience deals 2 damage to that player.
    7. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.
    8. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.
    9. Supersize: All creatures get +3/+3.
    10. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.
    11. Turtle Up: Until the start of the 6th turn: spells can't be countered, permanents have hexproof and indistructible, cards in graveyards have hexproof and players have hexproof. Damage does not cause loss of life, and players can't win or lose that game. Players may choose to ignore effects controlled by an opponent that would cause a permanent they control or card in their hand to change zones.
    12. Bouncy castle: Each player starts the game with a Cloudstone Curio artifact token in play.
    13. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).
    14. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.
    15. Unique: Each player gets 1 additional season point in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round.


    Season 10 - Deviant Legacy, part 3:
    (Still starting with the Legacy banned list. There may be additional bannings each round.)

    (Order yet to be determined. I have to think about that.)
    - Fateful Hour: Players start at 5 life. Additonal banning: Chancellor of the Dross
    - Persistence: All creatures have persistence. Effects that prevent counters being placed on creatures don't cause creatures to fail to return to play when their persistence ability resolves.
    - Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game.
    - Magical Metal: When an artifact enters the battlefield, it's controller may add one mana of the color of his or her choice to their mana pool. Additional banning: Lion's Eye Diamond
    - The Long Haul: Players start at 100 life. PS. Need to figure out bannings.
    - Duplicity: Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller creates a token that’s a copy of that creature.
    - Sphere of Resistance: Spells cost one additional generic mana to cast.
    - Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial emblem in play that has "During your upkeep, you may put a Vial counter on this emblem." and has "(0): Put a creature from your hand with converted mana cost equal to the number of Vial counters on this emblem onto the battlefield. You can use this ability only once per turn, and then not anymore until your next turn.". Additional banning: Suppression Field
    - Pillow Fight: Creatures have indestructible.
    - Cornucopia: Each deck must contain non-land cards with at least 3 different colored mana symbols. Hybrid mana counts for 2.
    - Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have a CMC 3 or greater.
    - Antagonism: At the beginning of each player’s end step, that player loses 2 life unless one of their opponents lost life that turn.
    - Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.
    - The Wheel: If a card would be put into a player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is put on the bottom of that player's library.
    - Phyrexian mana: All colored mana symbols in costs can also be paid with 2 life.


    Please let me know if you think we need additional bannings for season 9 (and 10, if you have time to check them out).
    Also, please let me know what you think in general. I really like these, but it's not fully set in stone yet.



    (PS. I'm taking a few more days and expect to open round one next Friday, with our deadline on Wednesday morning. But I'll let you guys know.)
    Last edited by Asthereal; 01-16-2021 at 08:49 AM.
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  20. #3480
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    My only remark would be that some rounds are not restricted enough and some deck would win without any constraints forcing players to play around it.
    For example, city of traitors, lotus petal, laboratory maniac, mishra's bauble would probably be too strong and again the spirit of "Berserker", "Race for Life", "Turtle Up", etc...
    I don't know how to handle such situation without an extensive banlist because if not, it feels like traditionnal legacy 4CB.
    So addional bannings ARE required :)

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