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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #4381
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Honestly it seems odd to me as well, but the round rules specified that x was copied on the Epic copies so I went with it.
    It's the difference between copying a spell (e.g. Twincast) and casting a copy (e.g. Isochron Scepter).

    When you cast a copy, you get to make all the casting decisions again: X cost, modes, kicker, target, ...
    When you just copy a spell, it retains all the choices except you usually get to reselect the target.

    For example when you Twincast Blaze, you copy it with a new target but retain the chosen X value.

    With Epic you copy the spell but do not cast the copies, since you cannot cast spells. The copies are created by a delayed trigger so all the choices are copied (except target). The round rules seem perfectly consistent with the game rules. It just never comes up in real games because Epic only exists on 5 narrow cards.

  2. #4382
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It's the difference between copying a spell (e.g. Twincast) and casting a copy (e.g. Isochron Scepter).

    When you cast a copy, you get to make all the casting decisions again: X cost, modes, kicker, target, ...
    When you just copy a spell, it retains all the choices except you usually get to reselect the target.

    For example when you Twincast Blaze, you copy it with a new target but retain the chosen X value.

    With Epic you copy the spell but do not cast the copies, since you cannot cast spells. The copies are created by a delayed trigger so all the choices are copied (except target). The round rules seem perfectly consistent with the game rules. It just never comes up in real games because Epic only exists on 5 narrow cards.
    It is a great explanation, makes a lot of sense.
    4CB is pretty good at forcing us to understand the rules better (and play better).

  3. #4383

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Talking about weird rules questions, was my analysis vs Serguei correct in that a redirected chain lightning would have epic?

  4. #4384
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Talking about weird rules questions, was my analysis vs Serguei correct in that a redirected chain lightning would have epic?
    I do not find what you are referring to, but it would seem to me that if you cast misdirection on a chain lightning from your opponent, your opponent will have a chain lightning every upkeep. And if you were to commandeer a chain lightning, you would get the chain lightning every turn.

  5. #4385

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I do not find what you are referring to, but it would seem to me that if you cast misdirection on a chain lightning from your opponent, your opponent will have a chain lightning every upkeep. And if you were to commandeer a chain lightning, you would get the chain lightning every turn.
    If I copied chain lightning using its ability, would that copy have epic?

  6. #4386
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    If I copied chain lightning using its ability, would that copy have epic?
    I believe it would, as Epic changes how the spell resolves but does not care how it got on the stack (Similar to the multiple Empty the Warrens copies all having Epic)

  7. #4387

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    4-1 looks right to me.
    OTP Force Spike is dodged
    OTD H suspends Footfalls while holding up Force Spike. Eventually Footfalls resolves making 2 4/4s, triggering Epic. Then GoblinSmashmaster makes 8 1/1s and H can't cast Force Spike, so it's just like the match vs dte where the tokens crash into each other and draw.
    Oh yes, of course, the epic-turns-off-your-countermagic-defenses. It's funny that I corrected someone else on this in a different match but missed it here. Stuff is complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I don't think there is much point to debating this after the round has already started, the more appropriate time would have been earlier.

    Also memo to dte: the Rhinos have trample.
    Crashing Footfalls is such a weird card in so many ways that it distracts from simple words like "trample".

    I agree about potential bans for the Concise rounds. If the round has very little variety, then it is what it is. It's such a weird condition, though, that I wouldn't really count on people being able to find the same cards. So even if you think "x is so broken, I should metagame around it", maybe no one finds x.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Interesting, I suppose we're in uncharted territory really, but that would seem to align with how we did things. Other ways of copying an x spell have an x value on the stack to copy, so its a little strange to think through, and something that likely will never intersect in the real rules.
    Note that epic says "copy this spell". It's only a spell if it's on the stack, otherwise it would have to be something like "copy this card". And while this certainly doesn't come up often in paper magic, I think a comparable situation could happen. You could splice Splicer's Skill onto Enduring Ideal and you would get a 3/3 every turn. What an epic spell!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Talking about weird rules questions, was my analysis vs Serguei correct in that a redirected chain lightning would have epic?
    It took me a while to figure out why you wished you had played Badlands instead of Swamp. I think you're right that you could get a Chain Lightning every turn, but it wouldn't have helped you. Serguei was running Leyline of Sanctity anyway.

  8. #4388
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    ...
    Note that epic says "copy this spell". It's only a spell if it's on the stack, otherwise it would have to be something like "copy this card". And while this certainly doesn't come up often in paper magic, I think a comparable situation could happen. You could splice Splicer's Skill onto Enduring Ideal and you would get a 3/3 every turn. What an epic spell!...
    That makes sense. This round actually resulted in some very interesting rules discussions!

  9. #4389
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It's the difference between copying a spell (e.g. Twincast) and casting a copy (e.g. Isochron Scepter).

    When you cast a copy, you get to make all the casting decisions again: X cost, modes, kicker, target, ...
    When you just copy a spell, it retains all the choices except you usually get to reselect the target.

    For example when you Twincast Blaze, you copy it with a new target but retain the chosen X value.

    With Epic you copy the spell but do not cast the copies, since you cannot cast spells. The copies are created by a delayed trigger so all the choices are copied (except target). The round rules seem perfectly consistent with the game rules. It just never comes up in real games because Epic only exists on 5 narrow cards.
    This round became more complicated than I had anticipated.
    But let's follow this explanation by FTW. It seems the most consistent with the rules.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  10. #4390
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I have serious concerns about next round (concise) diversity around 1-2 cards. Same procedure as last time with PMing Asthereal?
    There may be some diversity issues due to the much narrower cardpool, but that's inherent in the round design. Although there are certain cards that might show up often, maybe resulting in many mirrors, I don't see one that is strictly better than others. Maybe I've missed something broken, but nothing looks banworthy to me.

    In Block Tour, we had some rounds with 5 or more submissions of the same strategy (usually Ghost Quarter or Meddling Mage). I don't see a problem with this if it's just one round and not a recurring issue. Concise is supposed to be less diverse, while Unique will be the opposite.

  11. #4391

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It is also relevant if the copies are compulsory (they are as far as I can tell) so that leaves the targeting restriction, which is probably where the loop rules get me as I would be the active player so I eventually have to give you an extra turn to kill me. (If I had played Capture of Jingzhou instead, then it would be a draw.)

    Tournament Rules are ironically relevant here, even though there likely has been no sanctioned game of Card Blind, so here's the section on loops:
    I feel like this is a bit inconsistent with what we've done in the past, and (at least to me) violates the 4CB specific rule that you must play optimally for the best result. A simple example is Gideon's Lawkeeper vs Blightsteel Colossus. "Tap your guy every upkeep" leads to the same gamestate repeating every turn, but surely we would consider that a draw, right? I think we also had instances in the Impatience round where activating Isochron Scepter every turn vs Energy Field led to draws with nothing relevant ever changing.

    IMO the tournament rules shouldn't hold much weight, especially when they force a player to play suboptimally. The actual game rules (comprehensive rules) and the 4CB specific rules (plus round rules) are enough, I think.

  12. #4392

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by maxx! View Post
    IMO the tournament rules shouldn't hold much weight, especially when they force a player to play suboptimally. The actual game rules (comprehensive rules) and the 4CB specific rules (plus round rules) are enough, I think.
    This is certainly a difficult situation to assess. Since we're in between rounds anyway, let's dive in! I offer this as a comparison. Who wins between:
    Fountain of Cho, Oblivion Ring, Oblivion Ring, Obivion Ring versus Mercadian Bazaar, Fireball?

    The Oblivion Ring player casts 3 Rings, setting off an inescapable loop that ends the game in a draw.

    What about:
    Fountain of Cho, Oblivion Ring, Oblivion Ring, Obivion Ring versus Mercadian Bazaar, Fireball, Darksteel Relic?

    Can the Oblivion Ring player choose to exile another Oblivion Ring every single time? I don't think so. Whether we should we let them might be a different question.

    I know that these aren't literally the same cards or literally the same close, but I think it's the best comparison.

  13. #4393
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Tough question. I do see a difference between the Oblivion Ring/Time Warp problem and Lawkeeper. The first is using an infinite loop to stall, because they would lose if they pass the turn. The other is a legitimate stalemate where neither player can make progress against the other's board state even as both players have opportunities to take turns.

    The question is if "optimal play" includes the option to create an infinite loop to stall and avoid a loss, when there is an option to break the loop. If so, then Nomads en-Kor from the Life round is incapable of losing any matches because it can just place infinite activations on the stack and never pass the turn. Stalling is generally banned in Magic.

  14. #4394

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I played in a game on Reddit last year (as did Wrath of Pie), it had a pretty comprehensive rule set, including:

    If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.

    Which seems fairly reasonable for meeting expectations about what should happen (at least in my head). It's obvious that Nomads-en-Kor shouldn't be an auto-draw button, but I suspect people also don't think a Crazed Goblin should win through a Steel Wall, which would happen with the tournament rules.

    On the other hand, I may be biased, as that was the rule in the only game I've played previously. So it may not really be the standard approach.

  15. #4395
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Yeah, I agree that Nomads en-Kor shouldn't be able to auto-draw the game, and that the 3x Oblivion Ring + Darksteel Relic scenario should be forced to end too.

    What becomes complicated is whether Wrath's scenario with Epic Time Warp + Urza's Factory vs Energy Field is more like those or more like the Crazed Goblin vs Steel Wall.

    Wrath's loop isn't just doing nothing. Technically he is advancing his board state by creating another creature every 8 turns. He can go very wide and attack every turn. They're just running into infinite Steel Walls called Energy Field, so he can never deal damage. Also Wrath's infinite loop is not taking place on one turn. It's across multiple turns. They're just all his turns.

    The Epic rule forces him to cast Time Warp every turn. The only issue is whether the rules can force him to break the loop by targetting the opponent. Does he have to specify a finite number of times to target himself before he targets Silkster? That would make sense to me.

  16. #4396
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    After some heavy deliberation, I decided to put a last minute ban up for vote anyway. Even though I don't really want to.
    Before dte mentioned it, I already suspected Chronomaton will probably be the only threat anyone will want to play.
    It is by far the most dangerous cheap threat, and I feel like next round will be super dumb if everybody just sends in a Chronomaton deck.

    So I would like to suggest we ban Chronomaton for next round (Concise). Who's in favour & who's against?
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  17. #4397

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    After some heavy deliberation, I decided to put a last minute ban up for vote anyway. Even though I don't really want to.
    Before dte mentioned it, I already suspected Chronomaton will probably be the only threat anyone will want to play.
    It is by far the most dangerous cheap threat, and I feel like next round will be super dumb if everybody just sends in a Chronomaton deck.

    So I would like to suggest we ban Chronomaton for next round (Concise). Who's in favour & who's against?
    Against

  18. #4398
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I suspected this was the card dte was opposed to and I'm against. There might be limited format diversity, but it's hardly unbeatable or broken. There are all sorts of variations on how to play it or beat it.

  19. #4399
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal's scores for round 12 (Epic):

    1. Asthereal (TO): Great Furnace, Kuldotha Rebirth, Pyrokinesis, Chancellor of the Forge
    That's me. Low effort low scores, probs.
    2. dte: Simian Spirit guide, Simian Spirit guide, electrodominance, crashing footfalls
    You make bigger boys than me. 0-6
    3. GoblinSmashmaster: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens
    You make more boys than me. 0-6
    4. PJim: Sand Silos, Leyline of Sanctity, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Alrund's Epiphany
    I can't pay upkeep for my boys. 0-6
    5. jhhdk: Leyline of Abundance, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania, Elvish Promenade
    Yay, I win one! Pyro kills your team so your deck doesn't function anymore. Row of dudes wins it. 6-0
    6. Serguei: Mountain, Nivmagus Elemental, Chain Lightning, Leyline of Sanctity
    Pyro kills the Nivmagus, and my clock is faster than yours. 6-0
    7. Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Urza's Factory, Time Warp, Force of Negation
    You FoN my Rebirth, and my 1/1 haste dude isn't fast enough to race Cove+Factory even when supported by Pyro. 0-6
    8. alphastryk: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Torment of Hailfire
    I have 3 guys every turn to sac to negate your 3 times life drain. But I have one 1/1 hasty dude from Chancellor which always stays on the pitch and wins it. 6-0
    9. H: Tropical Island, Lotus Petal, Force Spike, Crashing Footfalls
    EDIT: OTD Spike the Rebirth, then many 4/4 dudes win it. OTP you can't Spike yet and my 1/1s overwhelm before the 4/4s hit. 3-3
    10. Tylert: Volcanic island, Chain lightning, Force of negation, Sea's claim
    FoN my Rebirth, mane Chains kill my hasty gobbo and then me. 0-6
    11. Reeplcheep: Swamp , Simian Spirit-Guide, Sonic Seizure , Alms of the Vein
    OTP I race you, OTD you race me. 3-3
    12. maxx!: Blackcleave Cliffs, Chancellor of the Forge, Goblin Grenade, Vicious Rumors
    Pyro kills the token so you can't use Grenade. Gobbos race the Rumors. 6-0
    13. silkster: Island, Inkmoth Nexus, Force of Negation, Energy Field
    I have to wait with Rebvirth, but then you can't attack, so we stare. 2-2
    14. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Misthollow Griffin, Talrand's Invocation
    I never heard of Talrand's Invocation. Cool find. FoN takes Rebirth, and my backup plan can't stop or race your wincon. 0-6

    Total: 32 points.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 04-12-2021 at 03:42 AM.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    After some heavy deliberation, I decided to put a last minute ban up for vote anyway. Even though I don't really want to.
    Before dte mentioned it, I already suspected Chronomaton will probably be the only threat anyone will want to play.
    It is by far the most dangerous cheap threat, and I feel like next round will be super dumb if everybody just sends in a Chronomaton deck.

    So I would like to suggest we ban Chronomaton for next round (Concise). Who's in favour & who's against?
    That's two against already. I'm in favour, and assuming dte is too, we're at 2-2 right now.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

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