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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #5501

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I agree: all non-basics should be bannable.

    I agree that Tabernacle is format warping in an un-fun way just like Chancellor of the Annex, so it should go too.

    I can't decide on ESG/SSG/Tangellor and City/Tomb, so I'm happy either way. If Barbed Shocker is worth the ban, though, then I think TKS probably is too. 4/4 is much bigger then 2/2 and it doesn't have to connect. I also like the idea of giving Eldrazi Temple the opportunity to cast something that isn't TKS.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxx! View Post
    The Strip Mine lands might be better off banned from the get-go.
    Asthereal's proposed banlist already includes " the usual land destruction lands", which I take to be Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter. and Wasteland, though I'm often prone to missing the obvious.

  2. #5502
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I agree: all non-basics should be bannable.

    I agree that Tabernacle is format warping in an un-fun way just like Chancellor of the Annex, so it should go too.

    I can't decide on ESG/SSG/Tangellor and City/Tomb, so I'm happy either way. If Barbed Shocker is worth the ban, though, then I think TKS probably is too. 4/4 is much bigger then 2/2 and it doesn't have to connect. I also like the idea of giving Eldrazi Temple the opportunity to cast something that isn't TKS.


    Asthereal's proposed banlist already includes " the usual land destruction lands", which I take to be Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter. and Wasteland, though I'm often prone to missing the obvious.
    There's one more LD land, but it's already on the list.

    The player base seems a tad split on what should be on the starting list, so I'll just choose.
    I've already updated most of the first two posts. I'll be deciding on the final few things soon.
    Also, I'll need to create my own deck, but I will be opening the season and round 1 in a day or so, and the deadline will be next week.
    So you know what to expect.

    But don't send me your decks just yet. I need to create my own deck first, and I have no concrete ideas yet, so I will be stealing yours if you send your decks early!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  3. #5503

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    But don't send me your decks just yet. I need to create my own deck first, and I have no concrete ideas yet, so I will be stealing yours if you send your decks early!
    Don't tempt me to spam you with terrible ideas.

  4. #5504

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I'm curious about one thing, and I don't think there's any way to ask it without revealing it and I suspect the answer is no, so I'd rather have it ruled out to clear my mind first. To clarify, I think the rule is "all submitted cards must have creature or land in the typeline", so Lucent Liminid is of course legal, but Grist, the Hunger Tide is not. Correct?

    With LED illegal, does Shelldock need to get the axe too? My heart says that if someone can make it work then they should be rewarded. My brain says that unbanning it doesn't matter because it's probably either overpowered or unplayable.

  5. #5505

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    With LED illegal, does Shelldock need to get the axe too? My heart says that if someone can make it work then they should be rewarded. My brain says that unbanning it doesn't matter because it's probably either overpowered or unplayable.
    That is still T3 Emrakul with cast trigger, seems quite powerful to me.

  6. #5506

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I'm curious about one thing, and I don't think there's any way to ask it without revealing it and I suspect the answer is no, so I'd rather have it ruled out to clear my mind first. To clarify, I think the rule is "all submitted cards must have creature or land in the typeline", so Lucent Liminid is of course legal, but Grist, the Hunger Tide is not. Correct?

    With LED illegal, does Shelldock need to get the axe too? My heart says that if someone can make it work then they should be rewarded. My brain says that unbanning it doesn't matter because it's probably either overpowered or unplayable.
    "What's written on the typeline" isn't really a game concept, oracle text is always what matters. As Grist is a creature during deckbuilding, I think any sensible definition will have it legal.

    One other non-obvious point is MDFCs. Only the front side of a MDFC counts when considering legality with companions, (though both sides count for commander color identity, the rules specifically call this out as an exception) so MDFCs that have a non-creature, non-land front shouldn't be legal.

  7. #5507
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I'm curious about one thing, and I don't think there's any way to ask it without revealing it and I suspect the answer is no, so I'd rather have it ruled out to clear my mind first. To clarify, I think the rule is "all submitted cards must have creature or land in the typeline", so Lucent Liminid is of course legal, but Grist, the Hunger Tide is not. Correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    "What's written on the typeline" isn't really a game concept, oracle text is always what matters. As Grist is a creature during deckbuilding, I think any sensible definition will have it legal.

    One other non-obvious point is MDFCs. Only the front side of a MDFC counts when considering legality with companions, (though both sides count for commander color identity, the rules specifically call this out as an exception) so MDFCs that have a non-creature, non-land front shouldn't be legal.
    This is a good point. I'll add a thing about this.
    Grist is a nasty one, and indeed legal by current wordings. We could ban it beforehand, or just let our bannathon do its thing.

    About double-sided and modal cards:
    A solution could be that cards that have a non-creature/land side or mode are legal but only the land or creature side/mode can be cast or played. Does that sound acceptable?
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  8. #5508

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    So do I understand correctly that Grist, field of ruins, lupin prototype and all mana acceleration will be legal?

  9. #5509
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    So do I understand correctly that Grist, field of ruins, lupin prototype and all mana acceleration will be legal?
    Field of Ruin fell off my list for some reason. Thanks for catching that one. It's especially annoying with sol lands legal, so that one needs to go.
    The others will indeed start legal, as most seem to prefer. We'll lose most of them in a round or two, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

    Looks like no one's opposed to my suggestion that modal and double-faced cards can be played, but only their creature or land mode/side.
    So I think I'll go for that method.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  10. #5510

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Looks like no one's opposed to my suggestion that modal and double-faced cards can be played, but only their creature or land mode/side.
    So I think I'll go for that method.
    I don't like that at all. What does that imply about Adventures, Disturb, etc? These restrictions should be about deckbuilding.

    I'd say either say a) MDFCs are legal if the front side is a creature or a land (the canonical rules interpretation), b) they're legal if at least one side is a creature or a land, or c) they're not legal unless both sides are creatures or lands.

    Ultimately it probably won't even matter which of those three, as most MDFCs are pretty bad in 4CB. Messing with what we can do in play is inviting rules problems.

  11. #5511

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I have a proposition that might solve these issues : rather than deck building restrictions, we go for the deviant rule: "players cannot cast noncreature spells".

  12. #5512

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    I have a proposition that might solve these issues : rather than deck building restrictions, we go for the deviant rule: "players cannot cast noncreature spells".
    Can't we just go with "Your deck must be composed entirely of creature and land cards." It is strongly defined, and it doesn't remove interesting strategic pieces from the card pool. This solution doesn't address cards that transform (or flip?) into non-creature/lands, and enables sneaking other types in, so is bound to result in further confusion.

    The consequences of "Your deck must be composed entirely of creature and land cards" are:
    Grist is legal. (If this is really seen as problematic, then ban rather than making the rules weird)
    Dual Faced Cards are legal if their front side is a creature or a land.

  13. #5513

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Simplest is best. PJim has it right.

  14. #5514
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    "Your deck must be composed entirely of creature and land cards."
    I'll add that for dual faced cards the front counts.
    And we'll ban Grist when it scores a top-3.

    Everybody else cool with this?
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  15. #5515
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Nobody responded anymore, so I'm locking this in, otherwise we lose another week. So the season looks as follows:

    4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 11 - LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON

    This season, we play 12 rounds of Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon. We will start with a modest banned list, and add the top-3 scoring decks for each round to the banned list.
    Basic lands are excluded from these bannings, but other than that the top 3 will be added to the banned list every round.
    Creatures & lands means the following: your deck must be composed entirely of creature and/or land cards. For dual faced cards, the front side counts.


    ROUND ONE OF SEASON 11: LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON has started.

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, so you can start sending me your decks.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 10th of November at 11:00AM Central European Time.
    (That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Urborg, Quicksand, Daughti Slayer, Black Knight.
    So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S11R01 in the topic.
    Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (which I'll build shortly).

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deckbuilding!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  16. #5516

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PJim View Post
    As Grist is a creature during deckbuilding, I think any sensible definition will have it legal.
    I didn't realize Grist's ability applied during deckbuilding. With this information, I must agree. Though interestingly, neither Gatherer nor Scryfall recognize Grist as a creature.

    I remembered about this season last Wednesday, but the banlist wasn't set. Then completely forgot until just now. I'm somehow always brewing at the last minute. And then when I went to check the banlist, the spreadsheet wasn't made yet! (This isn't a complaint. I just thought it was funny. Thanks to Asthereal for all the organization.)
    Last edited by silkster; 11-10-2021 at 04:43 PM.

  17. #5517
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by silkster View Post
    I remembered about this season last Wednesday, but the banlist wasn't set. Then completely forgot until just now. I'm somehow always brewing at the last minute. And then when I went to check the banlist, the spreadsheet wasn't made yet! (This isn't a complaint. I just thought it was funny. Thanks to Asthereal for all the organization.)
    Yeah, I usually make the spreadsheet after posting decks for round 1.

    Speaking of which, I have decks from 10 players. Compared to the last round of last season I miss entries from Reep and jhhdk.
    I vaguely remember one of these mentioning being busy and perhaps not joining this season, but I'll give you guys a few more hours just in case.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  18. #5518

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by jhhdk View Post
    I don't think I'll be participating next season. I'll go back to lurking.
    It was jhhdk.

  19. #5519

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Sending something bad in.

  20. #5520
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    It was jhhdk.
    Ah right. My memory is foggy af. Chess has been eating up most of my brain space lately.

    EDIT: And as I post this, Reep sends me a deck, so I'll be assembling everything and posting decks soon.
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

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