I wasn't able to vote using that link but I did request edit accessOriginally Posted by silkster
If I wait until 8 counters to double block Neonate (approx 10 life), then I can make Banisher Priest next turn with just 1 land. Once I animate Colonnade, Asthereal could respond by Welding in Gearhulk, but then I get to untap and Banish it before Welder untaps and my 2/2 wins.
If Asthereal makes Gearhulk first (at EOT then untap Welder), the exchange could dodge Banisher Priest. I missed that I needed instant removal for this MU. But I could target Welder instead. Then I have 2/2 + 1/1 vs 5/4 Menace and I can eventually block with Colonnade. This needs some math. Colonnade might be too slow.
I had some Karoo decks too. Mostly Academy Ruins + blue Karoo or Keldon Megaliths + red Karoo. But they just seemed unplayable vs the T2 format and LD. I thought Academy Ruins + Calciform Pools could at least make a turn 2 play, but still couldn't come up with a good enough pile.
Ammit Eternal + Fleshbag Marauder is good tech.
With the other discard creatures banned, I was looking at Mindleech Ghoul too because at least it disrupts Welder and Anurid (Miasmic Mummy does not). Combining it with Shambling Ghast is a nice touch. I just had stuff like Guul Draz Assassin + manland, too slow, so I didn't play it.
Modular doesn't work with Salvage Titan, otherwise I would have played it with Arcbounds sooner.
4. Nasst: Den of the Bugbear, Molten Slagheap, Fanatical Firebrand, Inferno Titan
I don't have too much time this week, so I'm gonna need some help.
1. Asthereal (TO): Great Furnace, Goblin Welder, Insolent Neonate, Noxious Gearhulk WW
2. Reeplcheep: Glint Hawk, Ancient Den, Glint Hawk, Glint Hawk LL
3. alphastryk: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Desert, Dauthi Slayer, Black Knight WW
5. dte: miasmic mummy, Liliana's Steward, Tomb of Urami, Molten Slagheap LL
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Havenwood Battleground, Mountain, Fanatical Firebrand, Anurid Scavenger WL I think? you kill me on the same turn I play titan I'm pretty sure.
7. Wrath of Pie: Den of the Bugbear, Mercadian Bazaar, Fanatical Firebrand, Inferno Titan Edit: I'm inclined to agree with WoP's assesment that it's a WL
8. FTW: Celestial Colonnade, Calciform Pools, Beloved Chaplain, Banisher Priest Edit: DD
9. RoosterCocoa: Swamp, Blinkmoth Nexus, Guul Draz Assassin, Pilfering Imp WW
10. silkster: Teferi's Isle, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Lake of the Dead, Trench Behemoth LL
11. maxx!: Overgrown Tomb, Quirion Ranger, Miasmic Mummy, Scourge of Nel Toth WW
Edit: Since everyone's talking about their unplayed decks, I had a few that I discarded for not being disruptive enough, but are sweet nonetheless:
Grove of the Burnwillows, Grove of the Burnwillows, Kavu Predator, Kavu Predator
Homeward Path, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Treacherous Pit-Dweller, Treacherous Pit-Dweller
Last edited by Nasst; 03-04-2022 at 02:03 PM.
For both of these, it comes down to how Den works. If you activate it 20 times, does the creature gain 20 separate "whenever this attacks" triggers to make 20 tokens at once? I didn't think so. Can someone confirm the rules?
Regardless, I should be able to win long before you get to 80 mana. I can either attack with Colonnade 5 times in a row (25 mana) or attack with Chaplain 20 times leaving Colonnade to block Den. One of those lines should win before you can go wide with Den.
It does!
I'm still unsure of how the matches turn out, though.
Why would you assume that I stand there charging slagheap and doing nothing else? If you attack with colonnade, I can attack back with den (and potentially firebrand), if you attack with chaplain, I can attack with firebrand and keep up titan in case you block me with colonnade.
I'm not sure if either of these lines is winning or not, but it's clearly more complex than "I just attack you 5 times".
I'm not. I can wait to charge up some counters. Then I can attack 5 turns in a row with Colonnade. That happens long before you can go wide with Den. You can attack back each time, but Colonnade will deal more damage in those turns and should win the race. (e.g. Chaplain blocks and kills a 1/1 and I take 3-4 damage, or I can choose to block the 3/2 Den once I get low).
If you attack earlier into my 2 untapped creatures, you lose stuff. As covered above in my post, if you trade Den for Colonnade (using Firebrand or Titan damage), I can untap and Banisher Priest with my 1 land (as long as I stay above 3 counters at all times), and then I have more bodies left. So it doesn't seem wise to attack into me while my creatures are untapped.
Charging until you have 25 counters just loses.
with you otp:
t27 - 25 counter / 26 counters (19/20) (I'm ahead 1 counter because I start charging t2 and you turn 3, I'm ahead 1 life because I attack on turn 1)
t28 - activate and attack, 20 counters / activate three times and attack, 14 counters, you block... firebrand? I hit for 6 (13/16)
t29 - activate and attack, 15 counters / activate and attack, 10 counters, you block... den? I hit for 4 (9/12)
t30 - activate and attack, 10 counters / activate and attack, 6 counters, you block... den? I hit for 5 (4/8)
t31 - activate and attack, 5 counters / activate and attack, 2 counters, you block... den? I hit for 6 (-2/4)
Other series of blocks also lose (always blocking den or always blocking a 1/1 for example)
Good point. When I did the math for this vs you and Wrath, I didn't consider multiple Den activations in the same turn. A mini-swarm makes the matchup more complicated.
To avoid you amassing multiple tokens, I have to start attacking with Colonnade earlier. Then you can either counter attack with only 1 token, or miss a damage window. I don't necessarily need to do it 5 turns in a row. Either way you can get 1 counter attack on me.
I spoke too soon.
Ah, sorry about that. I had changed it from "private" to "everyone with the link", but I missed that I needed to change it from "reader" to "editor". It should be fixed now.
I thought of playing one Predator and one Grove, but I didn't think of playing two of either. Weird blindsplot.
I also reread Homeward Path almost every week, trying to will it to change so that it would combo with Hunted Phantasm or Gilded Drake.
Worst is, you don't even have the same result as Nasst because of the land difference, so you WW vs gob and Nasst WL. I do not know if it changes for your FTW MU, but it allows you to be more aggro, as colonnade cannot block Den if FTW does not have at least 8 counters...
I did not realise Den could do that, it is much better than I thought!
The path/pit-dweller combo is very sweet!
And the full deck is maybe not disruptive, but it is pretty hard to disrupt and quite fast aggro.
I also tried to do something with path, but never found anything useful.
It is fixed, it works now. Thanks for making it!
Working now, thanks!
I didn't see it in the list but we probably want to address Leyline of Anticipation as well
Upon further review, this should be WL because Den is better on offense than on defense. To ensure that's the case, person on the play casts Inferno Titan before activating Den, which forces the other titan to be cast, then both trade with person on the play having 3 more life. Then Den activations should eventually get there, no stacking triggers necessary. (Firebrand shouldn't change this much.)
My best bet is to save up for one massive activation. Given that FTW saving for five straight attacks loses and that Den forces him to attack to avoid losing to stacked Den triggers, and he has to save up to 8 counters to attack the first four times (otherwise Inferno Titan makes things very bad). Luckily, Colonnade manland has vigilance so that helps with keeping Banisher Priest in reserve.
Potential activation windows:
1st time at 8 counters / 9 counters: Ha ha no
2nd time at 8 counters / 15 counters: Three activations is not getting there.
3rd time at 8 counters / 21 counters: Five Den activations means 6+5+4+3+2+1=21 damage (Firebrand was waiting for this). This means that Banisher Priest has to exile a token (or Firebrand if it's still alive), which frees up Inferno Titan/future Den activation for the kill if Chaplain/Priest/Colonnade don't kill first. At this point, they should get there, so we still have to wait, because that gets us closer to being able to cast Titan or have another Den activation, and that means less Chaplain damage to handle.
I can think of quite a few missing cards. Assassin's Trophy, Beast Within/Generous Gift, Mana Vault, Boseiju, Who Endures, and probably some 1-mana discard we're forgetting. (Trophy/Boseiju are obvious bans, Beast Within/Generous Gift are probably fine without Elixir around, Mana Vault is colorless Dark Ritual but at least merits discussion, and 1-mana discard is self-explanatory.)
I know I'm probably late to this discussion, but I'm pretty sure you don't get multiple tokens after activating Den of the Bugbear multiple times - because the triggered ability is part of the "becomes" wording rather than being written as "gains" I don't think you can ever get more than 1 trigger no matter how many times you activate it.
EDIT - I looked it up and it does get multiple instances of the ability which is counterintuitive to me. Odd.
I believe all the Colonnade lines are hopeless. I think I have a line that gives you a draw though.
If you start attacking on turn 11 with chaplain, and 8 counters on pools. I can, once I have 10 counters, attack with den back, you block with colonnade and trade den + fireband for colonnade. You're then left with chaplain vs a 1/1. If chaplain attacks, you lose the race to my 1/1, specially once you consider that I can deal the last 3 damage with titan. But you can just not attack again, and I can't attack back either.
Because of this, I believe the match now to be DD.
I think you, like me, are a tad too slow on the draw. Remember that GoblinSmashmaster can deal 5 damage a turn using the upkeep firebrand sac trick.
t3 attack / counter (2) [20/16]
t4 attack / counter (3) [20/11]
t5 attack / counter (4) [20/6]
t6 attack
You can't yet activate Den, since bazaar is tapped, and if you go down to 1 you die to a firebrand ping next turn.
You should double-check your result on the play as well, because blocking with Den is way worse for you than it is for me. (You are correct though.)
Yes, I can't block with Den. My plan OTP is playing firebrand t1 (which prevents 1 damage). And then playing titan on turn 7, barely stabilizing at 2 life, just enough to survive a ping from firebrand.
Trophy, Boseiju, and Leyline are now there. Mana Vault seems worse than Dark Ritual anyway.
Link for convenience: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...W3s/edit#gid=0
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