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Thread: UW Sagas

  1. #81

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Yes the UB version seems to have more promise, but the problem is finding a payoff for making lots of zombie tokens (other than cabal therapy). Driven//Despair? Hogaak? Cull the meek into Liliana’s mastery?
    I think if you have to find additional payoffs then the deck isn't good enough.

    Estrids Invocation is potentially really powerful but the pool of things to copy with it isn't very good
    - Omen of the Sea is slightly overcosted for legacy
    - History of Benalia also slightly overcosted for legacy
    - Tymaeret Calls the Dead similarly overcosted
    - Sarcomancy too underpowered
    etc

    If you go the other direction in terms of the mana and try to copy huge expensive haymakers with it (like court of grace or whatever) then it's hard to come up with a build of the deck that makes sense to me

    I think the solution might be to go 3c so you can play abundant growth as a cheaper enabler (unfortunately I don't think the deck can be purely UG because there doesn't seem to be good wincons in green but maybe there is some food interation with Trail of Crumbs? Lol I have no idea)

  2. #82

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I think if you have to find additional payoffs then the deck isn't good enough.

    Estrids Invocation is potentially really powerful but the pool of things to copy with it isn't very good
    - Omen of the Sea is slightly overcosted for legacy
    - History of Benalia also slightly overcosted for legacy
    - Tymaeret Calls the Dead similarly overcosted
    - Sarcomancy too underpowered
    etc

    If you go the other direction in terms of the mana and try to copy huge expensive haymakers with it (like court of grace or whatever) then it's hard to come up with a build of the deck that makes sense to me

    I think the solution might be to go 3c so you can play abundant growth as a cheaper enabler (unfortunately I don't think the deck can be purely UG because there doesn't seem to be good wincons in green but maybe there is some food interation with Trail of Crumbs? Lol I have no idea)
    If you splash green the gb saga is great. But then you are left wondering why you are playing blue interaction and cantrips instead of just enchantress.

    One idea is powerful cumulative upkeep stuff like rhystic study, but that risks losing your invocation.

  3. #83

    Re: UW Sagas

    The best new cheap enchantment is Urza’s saga. Perhaps that makes it consistent enough? The floor of always being a karn, scion of urza seems pretty good.

  4. #84

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    ...
    Estrids Invocation is potentially really powerful but the pool of things to copy with it isn't very good
    ...
    If you go the other direction in terms of the mana and try to copy huge expensive haymakers with it (like court of grace or whatever) then it's hard to come up with a build of the deck that makes sense to me
    There's a sort of paradox - if the enchantment can be cast for less then 3 mana, then Estrid's Invocation is likely to be a bad deal. If the enchantment can be cast for more than 3 mana and is worth playing in legacy then it's likely to win the game by itself and Estrid's Invocation is likely to be win-more. On top of that, you have to have an enchantment in play for it to do anything.

    Estrid's invocation looks like a card that's unlikely to make sense outside of combo decks.

  5. #85
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Estrid seems fine in UG Enchantress. History of Benalia just isn't a strong enough card to be worth copying, unless you're already far ahead.

    Edit: I think the biggest advantage to the Saga-aggro strategy (before) was that you could pump out a board presence that was immune to Oko and could go wide around Elks. With Oko banned, does this make sense anymore?

  6. #86

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    There's a sort of paradox - if the enchantment can be cast for less then 3 mana, then Estrid's Invocation is likely to be a bad deal.

    If the enchantment can be cast for more than 3 mana and is worth playing in legacy then it's likely to win the game by itself and Estrid's Invocation is likely to be win-more. On top of that, you have to have an enchantment in play for it to do anything.
    The 2nd part of this is comment is mostly true but I disagree with the first part
    Even copying something like Abundant Growth you have painless Phyrexian Arena which also triggers when it etb, which is solidly legacy playable imo

    The other variation of this that might be viable I forgot is UR(w) because of Omen of the Forge is a decent copy target, maybe you can play the UR giant saga with bonecrushers or something

    History of Benalia just isn't a strong enough card to be worth copying, unless you're already far ahead.
    It can get you ahead very quickly with the rate that it spits out knights and buffs them but the problem is that it doesn't necessarily get you a relevant amount more ahead than copying a "smaller" effect would and History doesn't really mesh with the rest of the deck by itself

    Edit: I think the biggest advantage to the Saga-aggro strategy (before) was that you could pump out a board presence that was immune to Oko and could go wide around Elks. With Oko banned, does this make sense anymore
    Yeah this upside has kind of disappeared
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-06-2021 at 09:28 AM.

  7. #87

    Re: UW Sagas

    Urza’s saga is an extremely cheap and uncounterable target for Estrid’s. Perhaps we could go to a more artifact token based version? Hidden stockpile, dark steel mutation?

  8. #88
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Copying Saga seems nice and degenerate until other decks adequately hate it out. Would that work even better in blue stompy though?

    Ancient Tomb gets Saga online faster, Tomb casts Estrid on turn 2, Chalice and Force stop enemy shenanigans. You could squeeze in room for other enchantments to copy like Omen of the Sea or Propaganda.

  9. #89

    Re: UW Sagas

    The degenerate thing is that saga{estrid copy} untaps before it flickers so you could potentially make 2 constructs per estrid per turn. There isn’t a ton of other good mono blue enchantments to copy other than reality acid however.

  10. #90

  11. #91

    Re: UW Sagas

    Paint-by-numbers draft:

    MonoU LD:

    4 Tomb
    3 City
    10 Island
    4 Urza’s saga
    1 Gemstone Caverns
    2 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Confounding Conundrum
    4 Reality Acid
    4 Propoganda
    4 Estrids Invocation
    4 Parralax Tide
    4 Force of Will
    2 Riptide Chimera
    4 Thopter Spy Network

  12. #92
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Lol, copying Parallax Tide.

    Such an enchantment heavy deck could also run Thirst for Meaning as card draw.

    1-of Retrofitter Foundry seems good as a Saga target in a deck that already makes Thopter tokens.

  13. #93

    Re: UW Sagas

    Copying Urza's Sage doesn't even seem that good to me
    Like you already have to pay 2 to make a construct from the original saga
    Then to take advantage of the Estrids you have to pay an additional 2 to also make a construct from the copy in the same turn cycle
    Idk if that's a kind of play pattern worth aiming for

  14. #94

    Re: UW Sagas

    New weird kind of enchantment

    "Ranger Class" 1G
    Enchantment - Class

    [Level up keeps the abilities from the previous level. Level up only as sorcery]

    When Ranger Class enters the battlefield, create a 2/2 Green Wolf token

    1G: Level 2
    Whenever you attack, put a +1+1 counter on target attacking creature

    3G: Level 3
    You can look at the top card of your library at any time and cast creature spells from the top of your library
    So this is quite interesting because
    1) It does the similar kind of Sarcomancy effect that its an enchantment that makes a token on etb that costs less than 3
    2) The level 2 mode is kind of interesting if you are just attacking with icefang coatls or something, and if you copy with Estrid then pay 2 before combat then when you attack you get +2+2 which means your wolves grow 2/2 to 4/4 etc very quickly
    3) The final mode is not likely to be super useful but not totally useless either assuming your deck has a few creatures in it and it can just help you decide when to fetch etc in the lategame

    I am thinking of a list like this

    20 Land
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Abundant Growth (the aura)
    2 Ranger Class
    3 Estrids Invocation
    2 Sevinne's Rec
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Force of Negation
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Uro
    3 Icefang
    1 Endurance
    2 Terminus

    Possibly there are not enough enchantments here to make Estrids Invocation playable but I think it's worth experimenting

    The other option is to go back to playing history again, using a 3C bant build to take advantage of abundant growth and prismatic endings, which might be ok, like this:
    20 Land

    4 Abundant Growth
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Detention Sphere
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    2 Sevinne's Reclamation
    3 Estrid's Invocation
    4 History of Benalia
    2 Counterbalance (maybe not)
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation

    3 Whatever (like 2 uro + teferi or something)
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-03-2021 at 08:07 AM.

  15. #95

    Re: UW Sagas

    Since it is not using counters for the level up, they should be copiable attributes. IE estrid's should go straight to level 3 if copying a level 3 class, which is pretty awesome.

    It does push us in a bant tokens direction; there is the GW saga which may be worth considering over history.

    Bant doesn't have many good payoffs for tokens however; just intangible virtue and opposition I guess?

  16. #96
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    Re: UW Sagas

    That looks like a good direction, especially if the rules work that way.

    I wouldn't bother with Counterbalance. It needs dedicated support to work, and you cut Omen of the Sea.

    Uro seems pretty low risk to run. It also means the opponent has to side in different answers (grave hate for Uro, enchantment hate for the rest) rather than being able to answer everything with the same cards.

  17. #97

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Since it is not using counters for the level up, they should be copiable attributes. IE estrid's should go straight to level 3 if copying a level 3 class, which is pretty awesome.

    It does push us in a bant tokens direction; there is the GW saga which may be worth considering over history.

    Bant doesn't have many good payoffs for tokens however; just intangible virtue and opposition I guess?
    I don't think the Class level ups are copiable

    I think the Estrid + Saga allows to overrun with tokens without needing to invest other cards to pump them.
    The GW / UG sagas are ok but I think History is still the strongest 3mana one (assuming 1WW cost is not an issue).
    And yeah I think counterbalance is probably not correct.

    Another reasonable option for green is Trail of Crumbs
    1) It's a maindeck source of lifegain
    2) You potentially get 2 extra cards each time you copy it, for example if you blink Estrid copying Omen of the Sea then you only scry 2 and draw 1. If you copy Trail of Crumbs then sac the food you get 2x Trail of Crumbs triggers (1 from the original Trail and 1 from Estrid) meaning you get 2 'draws' (assuming you have permanents on top of your library). This is not good if you are hunting for counterspells (it only finds permanents) and it costs extra mana, but it does gain life and dig deep for cards. If you have other stuff to spend the mana on then you can still just make the food to save it for later.

    There is also a green 'Sarcomancy' in MH2 that makes a 1/1 Squirrel, which is nice for a 1 mana thing that blocks Ragavan, and lategame if you have control of the game then making 1/1s could be good enough, but obviously it's a pretty weak card by itself

    The other obviously really good thing about being uw+g is that it lets you play carpet of flowers
    I might even consider playing a couple of copies of Utopia Sprawl in the maindeck just because there are so many important 3drops
    It's possible that it could be built like a way more "enchantress" style of deck not playing so many cantrips / fow etc with blue being more of a splash colour for estrids invocation
    Then you just have to make sure that you have enough SB cards for combodecks
    I think that could work

    I suppose then the question is like why do that over just playing 'normal' enchantress or what even is the difference
    - History beatdowns as a wincon give you a clock vs combo and a better out to things like Narset / Karn
    - No argothian to get plague engineered / wrathed etc (totally creatureless, well except for the tokens)
    - Estrid draw engine may be more resilient / consistent than the traditional Argothian / Presence

    Idk what the numbers look like exactly but I really like the idea of playing Utopia Sprawl on turn 1

    For example you could play a list like this:
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Neg
    4 Plow / Thin Ice / Mix

    4 Abundant Growth
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    4 Estrid
    4 History
    2 Omen of the Sea / Trail of Crumbs
    2 Sevinne's Rec
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 X

    20 lands

    Which still supports FoW and doesn't have any huge apparent flaws, but maybe is not actually using Utopia Sprawl very effectively i.e. those slots should just be something like prismatic ending instead

    Whereas the deck could also be a list like this

    4 Kruphix' Insight?
    4 Thin Ice
    4 Enchantress Presence
    4 Wild Growth
    4 Abundant Growth
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    4 Estrid
    4 History
    2 Omen of the Sea / Trail of Crumbs (more?)
    2 Sevinne's Rec
    1 Detention Sphere
    3 X
    20? Lands

    Which is now much more synergistic with the Wild Growth / Sprawl with more 3drops but you lose the safety valve of having Forces
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-05-2021 at 05:56 AM.

  18. #98

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I don't think the Class level ups are copiable
    Yah I mixed up two things. The effects aren’t copiable but “gains ability” effects don’t go away if you copy something else. For us that doesn’t help since estrid exiles itself, but it is relevant for stuff like thespians stage plus Urza’s saga.

    I guess why are we in Bant still rather than bug? Cabal therapy and the abrupt decay saga are both strong additions.

    For the trail of crumbs idea, don’t you have to pay for both triggers? So it is a 4 mana draw 2 scry 2 gain 3 vs a 0 mana preordain.

  19. #99

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I guess why are we in Bant still rather than bug? Cabal therapy and the abrupt decay saga are both strong additions.
    I don't think cabal therapy is actually an effect that the deck wants

    Binding the Old Gods I don't think is very good either. The deck doesn't make super good use of the ramp (this is a 4mana card remember) or the deathtouch so it's like 2GB vindicate with Estrid synergy? If I want to play a 4+ mana enchantment to combo with Estrid's I feel like Court of Grace is probably stronger. If I really want to destroy permanents it might even be better to play Reality Acid.

    Also the other white cards like plow / thin ice / sevinnes are very good and so is enlightened tutor SB I think

    For the trail of crumbs idea, don’t you have to pay for both triggers? So it is a 4 mana draw 2 scry 2 gain 3 vs a 0 mana preordain.
    Yes, there are pros/cons

  20. #100

    Re: UW Sagas

    I guess it would be good to keep all the brainstorming ideas in order:


    Bant tokens:
    Enablers:
    Ranger Class
    History of Benalia
    Utopia Sprawl
    Abundant Growth
    The Bears of Littjara

    Payoffs:
    Opposition
    Intangible Virtue
    Battle for Brittgard
    Leyline of the Meek


    Simple pros cons to enchantress as mentioned above.

    UWx:

    Paladin Class
    Monk Class
    Omen of the sea
    On Thin Ice

    Closer to a true UWx deck. Paladin and monk class give pseudo mana ramp, and each are a half of 3feri. Turning estrids into a on curve Capsize seems strong.

    Artifact aggro

    Urza’s Saga
    Baleful Strix
    Hidden Stockpile
    The Founding of Meletis
    Aminatou, the Fateshifter

    Payoffs:
    Thopter Spy Network
    Retrofitter Foundry
    Tempered Steel
    Nettlecyst
    Phyrexian Scriptures

    Possibly bad, but a 1 sided recurable plague wind seems great in fair matchups. And giving everything +4/+4 after making some servos will make people very very dead. Foundry plus stockpile makes a 4/4 every turn for free starting on t3.

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