Abolish the Reserve List Petition

[Michael Keller]

- I really dislike being called a troll, a n00b or whatever, especially from a guy I have never met.

You really shouldn't let it affect you - there are more important things in life to concern yourself with rather than being concerned about being called a "troll" on a Magic: the Gathering forum.

[Glass House]

Well I am sorry, Strawberry Dwarf, I was too quick to call you insincere, but you have to understand that when you make the claim that one can build decks without RL cards (a statement that I do not disagree with, btw) and, when asked to substantiate it with results, you answer that you are playing against bots, that weakens your argument significantly.
I am all for new brews, the New and Developmental Decks section of this forum is by far the one I browse the most. I am also legitimately interested in seeing your list, and even the other ones in your signature.

[Meekrab]

what?

There's no regulated market for Magic the Gathering cards, there's no "market price." You can't claim damages based on eBay sale prices changing.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There's no regulated market for Magic the Gathering cards, there's no "market price." You can't claim damages based on eBay sale prices changing.

What makes you think any of the three claims here?

[Purple Blood]

There's no regulated market for Magic the Gathering cards, there's no "market price." You can't claim damages based on eBay sale prices changing.

Except in reality it's quite easy to show there is a market and there are market prices.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm sure the joke will be on me when I file an insurance claim and they turn around and inform me that actually cards have no value so you can't lose any when they burn up or whatever

[bruizar]

I'm sure the joke will be on me when I file an insurance claim and they turn around and inform me that actually cards have no value so you can't lose any when they burn up or whatever

https://axaxl.com/insurance/products/fine-art-insurance
Joke will be on you indeed for having a terrible insurance company.

Also see Lloyds of London

[UseLess]

Signed, though sadly doubt it will make any difference.

[Artemis]

I'd pay to make someone put sign in front of Wizards HQ like someone did with sensei's top...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You can’t get rid of the reserved list, think of the guy with a binder full of Juzam Djinns, his investment into underpriced collectibles in need of price correction will be ruined.

[Ronald Deuce]

What makes you think any of the three claims here?

Except in reality it's quite easy to show there is a market and there are market prices.

There's no evidence to suggest many of the going prices for high-end reserved-list cards are set by anyone but the sellers. If you look at, e.g., prices for Alpha Underground Seas on tcgplayer, you'll see that the company's not confident to set a market price; I suspect that's (at least partially) because the vendors who use the site list prices that vary by literal thousands of dollars.

The higher the supposed value of the card, the greater the variance and paucity of indices, as well: Alpha Lotuses (of which TWO are listed on the site) differ in price by $7,000. With such a lack of data, I don't think appraisers or other "rating" entities can make an accurate judgment, and I doubt they think they can do it themselves, either.

I know it's preterition, but I'm not even gonna touch Ebay prices. It's the Wild West over there. That's indicative of a demonstrably unstable market—prices are arbitrary in the absence of a reliable rating system like you have for stocks, bonds, etc.

AGAIN, though, that doesn't mean the RL is going anywhere because there's no reason to think people wouldn't sue anyway. Ben_Bleiweiss's solution is a good one and one I've supported for a long time. Another good one would be to abolish the list and not reprint anything until everyone's settled down, but I don't expect they have the foresight to do that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There's no evidence to suggest many of the going prices for high-end reserved-list cards are set by anyone but the sellers.

Other than any sale, of course. Which we actually can look up!

If you look at, e.g., prices for Alpha Underground Seas on tcgplayer, you'll see that the company's not confident to set a market price;

"Unavailable" dosen't mean "not confident to set a market price" It means "unavailble." Unless you see their code you can't actually tell me why, but I'm sure you'll try to anyways...

I suspect that's (at least partially) because the vendors who use the site list prices that vary by literal thousands of dollars.

I actually suspect it's because no one is buying them on TCG player and only trusting services with built-in authentication for such big ticket items therefore rather than suggest the market price is infinity dollars when they divide the average by zero sales their storefront instead yields "Unavailable".

The higher the supposed value of the card, the greater the variance and paucity of indices, as well: Alpha Lotuses (of which TWO are listed on the site) differ in price by $7,000. With such a lack of data, I don't think appraisers or other "rating" entities can make an accurate judgment, and I doubt they think they can do it themselves, either.

And yet I can value a classic car or any other collectible. No two classic Mustangs are the same and may differ in price by thousands and yet appraisers or other "Rating" entities still manage an accurate judgement and if you damage a classic car you're not going to say "Um, you still own one (1) 1955 Bel Air Chevy with a 327 engine. So I did no damages!"

I know it's preterition, but I'm not even gonna touch Ebay prices. It's the Wild West over there. That's indicative of a demonstrably unstable market—prices are arbitrary in the absence of a reliable rating system like you have for stocks, bonds, etc.

Yeah, why touch the marketplace where prices are public and sales are public. Then we might be able to create trendlines beyond MTGOldfish histograms!

[Ronald Deuce]

Other than any sale, of course. Which we actually can look up!

That doesn't make any sense. Sellers still set the prices, and those prices vary greatly, which means there's not a reliable market price for Damaged Alpha Mox Whatever. At this point, you're arguing to argue.

I actually suspect it's because no one is buying them on TCG player and only trusting services with built-in authentication for such big ticket items therefore rather than suggest the market price is infinity dollars when they divide the average by zero sales their storefront instead yields "Unavailable".

In other words, they're not able to value the cards. And you just contradicted yourself.

And yet I can value a classic car or any other collectible. No two classic Mustangs are the same and may differ in price by thousands and yet appraisers or other "Rating" entities still manage an accurate judgement and if you damage a classic car you're not going to say "Um, you still own one (1) 1955 Bel Air Chevy with a 327 engine. So I did no damages!"

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean given that it's rather different from promissory estoppel (and given that you're assuming the car appraisal is accurate to the point that it holds up in court), but assuming the first part of what you said is correct and applicable to a court case—which I doubt outside of insurance claims, though it's obvious neither of us is a lawyer—you're saying that you can go get your cards appraised, then sue Wizzerds on the basis that you've lost out on your "investment" based on the word of your appraiser instead of the company's appraiser? You're posing more questions than you're answering (e.g., "What qualifies you to appraise cardboard?" What makes the cardboard in question a reasonable investment, Cardy McAppraiser?" "What makes this appraisal grounds for you, Mr(s). DogsInAHorseSuit, to make investment decisions?"), which weakens legal cases. Incidentally, card graders grade for condition, not value.

And if your 1955 Bel Air Chevy [sic] was rear-ended by a Yugo in 1982, that makes it pretty tough to appraise. Kind of like my friend's torn Bayou.

I could go on, but given that I'm tired, none of this matters, and you're probably going to keep arguing regardless of what anyone says, I'd rather drink.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

That doesn't make any sense. Sellers still set the prices, and those prices vary greatly, which means there's not a reliable market price for Damaged Alpha Mox Whatever. At this point, you're arguing to argue.

And are you forced at gunpoint to accept that price? Or do you, perhaps, not buy the item? Maybe you you click the "best offer" button sitting next to "buy it now?"

In other words, they're not able to value the cards. And you just contradicted yourself.

That's not what it means. Nice try!

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean given that it's rather different from promissory estoppel (and given that you're assuming the car appraisal is accurate to the point that it holds up in court), but assuming the first part of what you said is correct and applicable to a court case—which I doubt outside of insurance claims, though it's obvious neither of us is a lawyer—you're saying that you can go get your cards appraised, then sue Wizzerds on the basis that you've lost out on your "investment" based on the word of your appraiser instead of the company's appraiser? You're posing more questions than you're answering (e.g., "What qualifies you to appraise cardboard?" What makes the cardboard in question a reasonable investment, Cardy McAppraiser?" "What makes this appraisal grounds for you, Mr(s). DogsInAHorseSuit, to make investment decisions?"), which weakens legal cases. Incidentally, card graders grade for condition, not value.

It means that if you can value a car, you can value a card. The whole point of promissory estopple is that you're losing value, but you seem to think that this requires some magic market and keep moving the goalposts every time it's pointed out that valuing things is as simple as looking at the last time they were purchased.

And if your 1955 Bel Air Chevy [sic] was rear-ended by a Yugo in 1982, that makes it pretty tough to appraise. Kind of like my friend's torn Bayou.

I will inform the insurance company when they go to pay out.

I could go on, but given that I'm tired, none of this matters, and you're probably going to keep arguing regardless of what anyone says, I'd rather drink.

You're on a forum, idiot. If you don't want people to reply don't post!

[Cire]

You don't have to prove anything. First, there will not be a "you" or even "a collector". There will only be an entrepreneurial lawyer. One thing weird dumb thing about the legal system is that it gives a prominent role to such lawyers. If a company is dumping poison in a lake, the people who will hold it to account are not really the people who drink the poison lake water; they’re the lawyers who notice the poisoning and decide to bring a lawsuit. In general those lawyers aren’t sitting by the phone waiting for poisoned victims to call them; they’re going out looking for cases, and then trying to round up victims to act as their clients. It’s not that the lawyers are bringing lawsuits because clients want them to; the clients sign up for the lawsuits because the lawyers want them to. The lawyers are the ones actively pursuing the lawsuit. Wizard's worry is clearly such entrepreneurial lawyers. Such a big move will bring such persons from the woodwork, who will then bring these suits. Second, you only need proof for a trial. As I said before there will not be a trial. Large corporations always seek to settle such lawsuits, especially when such lawsuits are for "nuisance value". Any case regarding the list would definitely be a nuisance value lawsuit, in that it could easily be settled. So combining the above, getting rid of the reserved list would almost automatically cost wizards money and time due to entrepreneurial lawyers bringing suits that wizards is predisposed to settle. Whether you could prove promissory estoppel is essentially a non-issue. Litigating it and winning against a lawsuit brought for promissory estoppel may even cost more than a quick settlement. As such the only issue on the table is that wizards thinks it can make more money with the reserved list intact compared to the money and the costs it takes to get rid of the reserved list. This is not a legal consideration and simply a business consideration.

[the Thin White Duke]

... the only issue on the table is that wizards thinks it can make more money with the reserved list intact compared to the money and the costs it takes to get rid of the reserved list. This is not a legal consideration and simply a business consideration.

This 100%. People need to accept that the RL is not going anywhere. It's not worth it for WoTC to touch it. If Legacy needs "saving", there had to be a Plan B. Handle this at a community level. Have proxy tournaments, whatever. Save yourselves the mental anguish of hoping and dreaming for the RL fairy to wave the magic wand and destroy the List.

[Ronald Deuce]

That's not what it means. Nice try!

No, that's exactly what it means. There's really no point in addressing most of what you wrote because it's either off topic or on Mars, but here, you're categorically and emphatically wrong and contradicting yourself.

The company has no logical reason not to post a price for cards on their site if they're able to do so. The reason they're not doing it is that they don't have the data to make that determination—they're not comfortable setting a price.

Other than any sale, of course. Which we actually can look up! . . . I actually suspect it's because no one is buying them on TCG player and only trusting services with built-in authentication for such big ticket items therefore rather than suggest the market price is infinity dollars when they divide the average by zero sales their storefront instead yields "Unavailable".

For the record, that's where you contradicted yourself.

All that said, Duke and Cire are largely right. I have no problem debating and discussing things like this, but you're answering reasoned argument with circular logic, vitriol, and "But I paid for that!" None of that wins you a lawsuit, though from your behavior, I don't doubt that you'd bring one anyway.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No, that's exactly what it means. There's really no point in addressing most of what you wrote because it's either off topic or on Mars, but here, you're categorically and emphatically wrong and contradicting yourself.

The company has no logical reason not to post a price for cards on their site if they're able to do so. The reason they're not doing it is that they don't have the data to make that determination—they're not comfortable setting a price.



For the record, that's where you contradicted yourself.

How dumb where you think "we can look up sales" and "tcg player doesn't have recent sales" are contradictory phrases?
What a small world you live in where there's only one place to look up sales and no "show completed items only" option on your rendering of ebay dot com.

[Michael Keller]

You're on a forum, idiot. If you don't want people to reply don't post!

You're also on a forum, and calling people names isn’t going to give you credibility or the ability to be taken seriously.

[Seymour_Asses]

This 100%. People need to accept that the RL is not going anywhere. It's not worth it for WoTC to touch it. If Legacy needs "saving", there had to be a Plan B. Handle this at a community level. Have proxy tournaments, whatever. Save yourselves the mental anguish of hoping and dreaming for the RL fairy to wave the magic wand and destroy the List.

Yep. The RL isn't going anywhere unless it's financially beneficial for WoTC, which will never happen (unless MTG sees a huge drop in popularity and they need some "big event" to rekindle people's interest).

Whether or not it's a good idea to get rid of the RL is entirely academic at this point.