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Thread: Token Therapy

  1. #1
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    Token Therapy

    This is an attempt at abusing token engines with Cabal Therapist to shred the opponent's hand and then go wide.

    'Edited list:

    //Tokens: 21
    2 Retrofitter Foundry
    4 Hidden Stockpile
    3 Bitterblossom
    4 Lingering Souls
    3 Spectral Procession
    3 Monastery Mentor
    1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
    1 Serra the Benevolent

    //Therapy: 10
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Cabal Therapist
    3 Thoughtseize

    //Other Spells: 8
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Intangible Virtue

    //Lands: 21
    3 Karakas
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Scrubland
    3 Snow-Covered Plains
    3 Snow-Covered Swamp

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Force of Virtue
    2 Zealous Persecution
    1 Plague Engineer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Beckon Apparition
    2 Smallpox
    2 Disenchant
    2 Deafening Silence


    Some card interactions:

    Flying tokens + anthem effects

    Hidden Stockpile + Therapist (sac a servo to discard something, then EOT you get another servo)

    Karakas + Therapy: bounce a Legend, then discard it

    Mana Curve:
    1 - 16
    2 - 11
    3 - 10
    4 - 2

    Since Cabal Therapist is rarely live before turn 3 (you need it + fodder at the beginning of PRECOMBAT main phase), against fast decks it can be boarded out for quicker interaction.

    Force of Virtue and even Zealous Persecution speed up the clock in unfair matchups (the -1/-1 is relevant vs Empty the Warrens and other things too), while Deafening Silence can slow them down long enough to disrupt or race.

    Plague Engineer and Zealous Persecution handle creature-heavy decks.

    Beckon Apparition diversifies the graveyard hate while generating a token

    Smallpox pressures decks with low threat density and few lands (Delver, Reanimator) while being somewhat asymmetric.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-10-2019 at 12:26 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Token Therapy

    Cool list! Would you ever want to try Stoneforge here? You could easily just swap Intangible Virtue/Force of Virtue for a 6-card package. Equips seem to be really, really good with your flying token plan. Another card that could potentially be really good is Smallpox. Cast after a Hidden Stockpile it can really break the symmetry, not to mention the natural synergy with Lingering Souls. Multiple Stockpiles would trigger off Smallpox as well, making multiples less awkward. I don't know if it's correct, or even good, but Smallpox seems fun to say the very least. Lastly, I can't help but love the idea of Bloodghast + Cabal Therapist + hidden stockpile. It feels like it could be a soft lock that generates so much value.
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    Re: Token Therapy

    Thanks for the comments!

    Smallpox looks good. Like the Liliana in the board, you can break the symmetry. I need more MD board control. I'll try to squeeze some in.

    I was thinking about the Stoneblade package. There isn't room for both. Intangible Virtue's vigilance means the flying tokens can both attack and chump block, which really helps with racing and stabilizing. Spectral Procession turns into 6-9 power for 3 mana. Lifelink damage starts adding up. I think going wide has some perks. Jitte and Swords are obviously strong cards, though they do have some drawbacks: costing more mana and tempo to use and making enemy spot removal more relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Bloodghast + Cabal Therapist + hidden stockpile. It feels like it could be a soft lock that generates so much value.
    I think I don't understand the soft lock. How is that different than Hidden Stockpile + Cabal Therapist? That can already Therapy them every turn.

  4. #4
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    Re: Token Therapy

    I don't know, but Legion's Landing seems a bit weak to me. I guess maybe I'd consider another Stockpile and maybe 2 Retrofitter Foundry? Foundry just seems more useful in grindy games to me, and even if Landing flips, it likely gets Wasted since you don't have many ways to tax their Wastelands anyway. It also can enable Stockpile as well, without "costing" a body (that is, it costs a body and makes a body).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: Token Therapy

    -2 Landing
    +2 Foundry

    I do want some early tokens so there's fodder for Cabal Therapist. Is Doomed Traveler too weak to play? Most games it will net more fodder and more attack potential (flying) than Legion's Landing.

    What about Attrition? It has a similar combo with Hidden Stockpile.

  6. #6

    Re: Token Therapy

    Unfortunately, Karakas only targets creatures.

    Still a good card to include, but due to less utility you might want to shave one.

  7. #7
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    Re: Token Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I think I don't understand the soft lock. How is that different than Hidden Stockpile + Cabal Therapist? That can already Therapy them every turn.
    It isn't different, it would just be redundant and a way to do it without sacrificing your board presence (tokens.) Bloodghast is a re-usable sacrifice outlet that will end up producing tokens rather than eating them. There are instances where you will want to gang-block with tokens to control threats, or simply leave Souls tokens available to block stuff like Marit Lage. Without another token producer your Therapies/Therapist doesn't have sacrifice fodder once the board is empty. Maybe you won't need it after 2-3 Therapy effects, but against some decks it will be good all game. You also won't be as dependent on Hidden Stockpile/Souls to produce Therapy fodder. Cabal Therapy allows you to do tricks by targeting yourself to get Bloodghast in the yard, play a land to get him back and Therapy again. It seems like if Therapy/Therapist are a central mechanic of the deck then you want redundancy to make sure it happens consistently.

    Aside from all that, Bloodghast is just bonkers with Smallpox. The synergies are well documented in the Pox thread. Regarding Attrition, I think Smallpox is just a neater package of card advantage if you can break the symmetry. Grave Pact and Attrition seem just way over-costed for legacy at 3-4 mana considering they do nothing on their own. Stockpile is already a do-nothing without support, you don't want too many of those effects. I think Smallpox is the card you want.
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    Re: Token Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucane View Post
    Unfortunately, Karakas only targets creatures.
    Did I imply it was used for noncreatures? The combo is just Karakas + Therapy = destroy target Legendary creature.

    It answers: Thalia, Leovold, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Marit Lage, and other legends that show up. There aren't many Legends in the format, but even just having MD outs to unfair decks (SneakShow, Reanimator, Depths) seems good.

    What else would I play in its place? Another fetchland? Silent Clearing? The deck needs white sources for Spectral Procession. It's Plains with an upside.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-06-2019 at 11:14 PM.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It isn't different, it would just be redundant and a way to do it without sacrificing your board presence (tokens.) Bloodghast is a re-usable sacrifice outlet that will end up producing tokens rather than eating them.
    Bloodghast does take up a 3rd card though. Wouldn't a 2nd Hidden Stockpile or Retrofitter Foundry accomplish the same thing? In all cases, that 3rd card lets you net +1 token (instead of staying at parity). On the other hand Ghast has some vulnerabilities that token engines don't.

    I'm hoping that going up to 4 Stockpile + 2 Foundry should address those problems of getting board presence and recovering from empty boards.

    You're right, Attrition and Grave Pact are just too slow for Legacy.

    Smallpox is great with Bloodghast. Is Smallpox good enough on its own? I do want my lands to play 3-4 cost stuff and activate abilities.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-06-2019 at 11:13 PM.

  10. #10

    Re: Token Therapy

    I think I want serra the benevolent over the white force in here, mostly for the worship emblem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    Good idea, I'll try Serra, the Benevolent and see if it's fast enough

    I'm thinking about Sephara too, but that might be win-more.

  12. #12

    Re: Token Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Did I imply it was used for noncreatures? The combo is just Karakas + Therapy = destroy target Legendary creature.

    It answers: Thalia, Leovold, Griselbrand, Emrakul, Marit Lage, and other legends that show up. There aren't many Legends in the format, but even just having MD outs to unfair decks (SneakShow, Reanimator, Depths) seems good.

    What else would I play in its place? Another fetchland? Silent Clearing? The deck needs white sources for Spectral Procession. It's Plains with an upside.
    You did not imply, it was all me:-)

    Whenever I play a 3rd karakas in any deck, it occupies a spell-slot. I'd guess you'd do fine with 20 lands... Silent Clearing would in a sense fill the same purpose.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    Maybe the 3rd Karakas could be a spell.

    I just realized something. Despite being a beatdown deck with anthems, there are only 3 creature cards. 36 noncreature spells. I missed a great token generator: Monastery Mentor.

    Mentor also has a nice synergy with Cabal Therapy, like Young Pyromancer, creating a token which you can then use to immediately flashback and get the token back.
    Last edited by FTW; 12-09-2019 at 01:59 PM.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    I've begun exploring a similar idea a few days back, due to the observation that Tokens + Enchantments should provide a decent angle against an Oko-heavy meta. My appoach involved Chrome Mox for recycling unwanted multiples (one Sorin/Bitterblossom/younameit ought to be enough), and use the fast mana for Chalice of the Void and/or Leonin Arbiter (building without fetchlands in the latter case, of course). I think your version, focussing more on Therapy effects, looks significantly stronger, however. That said, have you considered Tidehollow Sculler? I imagine it to be hilarious with Hidden Stockpile (sac Sculler in response to its trigger, and the exiled card won't ever come back, while triggering Revolt), while also being decent on its own.

    I'm looking forward to experimenting with your build :)

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    Re: Token Therapy

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    I've begun exploring a similar idea a few days back, due to the observation that Tokens + Enchantments should provide a decent angle against an Oko-heavy meta.
    Yeah, I figured with the format going -W6 +Oko, going wide with 1/1 flying tokens + anthems got more viable. Meanwhile the hand disruption gives you game against unfair decks.

    I've never thought about Tidehollow Sculler. Not sure if this deck needs yet more hand disruption or more board interaction, but the interaction with Hidden Stockpile looks fun.

  16. #16

    Re: Token Therapy

    Did you run it yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    I am, quite literally, going to town with this - if I can't make it today, it's gonna be Friday. I'll also be trying a few singletons to evaluate how they "feel" if/when they come up (Reassembling Skeleton, Blade Splicer, Tidehollow Sculler, maybe also Ophiomancer). Will report how it went.

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    Re: Token Therapy

    I got crushed yesterday, it wasn't even funny. However, I do blame this in part on depressingly bad luck on my part.

    First round against Grixis Control, I won the roll, but had to mulligan two no-landers away into a decent five, and even managed to keep up with my opponent for a while - until an unhandled Liliana ended up producing more tokens than I could. I won round two (Hidden Stockpile is *strong*, esp. in multiples!) quite clearly after Vindicateing my opponent's very problematic Ensnaring Bridge, but ended up losing the last game against a Plague Engineer that turned the only token generation machine I was able to find (Bitterblossom) into a liability, while I couldn't find any removal.

    Second round was against RUG Delver, and after winning the roll, I yet again had to mull to five before I found a single f*cking land, which unsurprisingly turned out as too few cards against RUG. Game two I kept up better despite drawing only pure white mana source (3 Plains, a Flagstones of Trokair, but the turn after I could finally get a value/token engine (again, Bitterblossom) online, Hooting Mandrills hit the field, and my removal had already been spent on two Delver of Secrets. Trample just sucks.

    Since I got the bye in round 3, I left early, with a mental list of changes to be made. I want more fetchlands (and fewer basics) to more reliably trigger Revolt. I also want at least two copies of Vindicate or maybe Council's Judgment (but the latter can't deal with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale...) main.

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