In my own Symmetry test list I tried to use 3 Tome Scour, 3 Brainfreeze, 2 Defense Grid, and 4 Chromatic Sphere (regular cantrips didn't really work because I didn't have enough mana to Symmetry + Cantrip + Combo out. Passing the turn often led to extra disruption to my opponent and loss to me) to counteract its drawback and it wasn't enough. Felt like trying to assemble a combo to get my combo. I mean it still worked in that I won as often as I do with other builds but felt sub-optimal. IDK, what did it feel like for you?
Has anyone come up with a good plan B that doesn't use the graveyard?
Personally I think that any version of this deck that doesn't go all-in on the combo is going to be suboptimal but a thought on this:
The key cards are:
4 LED
4 BF
4 Underworld Break
2 Burning Wish
Personally I think Enlightened tutor is necessary so let's include that in as well, that plus about 20-25 mana sources (including or excluding accel) that leaves about 22-17 cards for plan B.
There's two cards that seem that we can go in other directions with, mainly Enlightened tutor - in that it can search for answers (Look at Might Quinn) or other combos; or LED in that it can combine with Karn to accel out a Lattice.
Now Quinn's main combo was RIP and Helm, obviously that combo doesn't really work with our combo. However there is another combo that is graveyard proof and searchable through Tutor - Painter. Intresting there is a WR painter deck in the established deck list called Painter Stone that also plays LED, (sometimes) Enlightened Tutor and Karn (my other idea above).
Sort of playing off that list as a rough sketch:
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Underworld Break
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Astrolab
3 Grindstone
3 Defense Grid
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Painter's Servant
4 Brainfreeze
2 Burning Wish
2 Open Spots
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Prismatic Vista
3 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
//SB
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Grindstone
1 LED
1 Crypt
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Painter's Servant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grapeshot
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
I mean it has clear faults (mainly it seems bad at assembling either combo and no protection), but dividing the deck between the graveyard combo and another combo - with enlightened tutor being able to search for either combo plus accel and the oops I win of Karn seems like a solid plan B?
They just printed one :-)
http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/thassasoracle.jpg
Thassa's Oracle
UU
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
When Thassa's Oracle enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is your devotion to blue. Put up to one of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. If X is greater than or equal to the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
I agree that that seems bad. I was trying to think of complementary cards that would help us not just lose if UB or LED gets surgically extracted. Kind of like how Tome Scour can be used to win in a pinch. So far all I've thought of is Rite of Flame + PiF\Manamorphose, and Monastery Mentor\Young Pyromancer. Neither of which seem particularly good. RoF acts kind of like lotus petal in hand and kind of like a red LED in the yard. I'm not sold on it though since the math isn't very nice to escape RoF -> Manamorphose -> BF, and it just flat out doesn't work with Tome Scour. Mentor\Young Pyromancer would play into the 12 cantrips that I run in my version and probably live in the sideboard. However 3 mana is hard to get when I'm only running 17ish lands without using all those cantrips, so maybe something like pteramander would be better (but probably not).
This is very interesting. I think we'd need to run some more maindeck self-mill if we were planning this since X will undoubtedly be 2 in our spell based deck. I feel like it's a better win condition than Jace, Weilder of Mysteries since SR can fetch it from the yard, but I don't think it solves the "what if our engine can't start" problem. It might be a better win condition than grapeshot, too bad it isn't wishable.
If you read it carefully it doesn't matter if it's on the board when the ability resolves or not.
When Thassa's Oracle enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is your devotion to blue. Put up to one of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. If X is greater than or equal to the number of cards in your library, you win the game.
Since 0 = 0 it will still trigger the 'win the game' clause.
Transformational Sideboard.
Man plan is one way (Monastery Mentor and friends).
My preference is this. Board into:
+3 Helm of Obedience
+3 Rest in Peace
If you can't beat em, join em. What's that? You're boarding in gravehate? OK I will too.
If any UW decks board in RiP against us, we are laughing, they are literally playing our own combo piece for us.
A shell of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2-4 Preordain, and 3-4 Enlightened Tutor is perfect to assemble another artifact+enchantment 2-card combo.
We also have the option to play Energy Field as protection (which is turned on by the opponent's Leyline of the Void!!).
Who will see it coming? They'll board in gravehate and stormhate. Game 3 we can either keep RipHelm or go back to Breach. By switching gears, we reduce the optimization of the opponent's deck. They will board out cards they should keep and board in useless cards, even mulliganing into them!
This is really funny, but I don't know if it's as good as we need it to be. At least in my local meta, leyline and RiP aren't all that popular sideboard cards. So although we'd be dodging hate, my build at least isn't designed to consistently get to 4+ mana. It's hard pressed to cast Intuition at 3 mana to go off the next turn. As such, I think I'm on the Mentor plan until something better comes along.
19 Mana Sources
2 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Lotus Petal
15 Combo
4 Underworld Breach
4 Brain Freeze
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
14 Dig
3 Gamble
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
12 Defense
3 Defense Grid
3 Spell Pierce
3 Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
WB 1 Pulverize
WB 1 Reverent Silence
WB 1 Sevinne's Reclamation
WB 1 Tome Scour
WB 1 Echo of Eons
WB 1 Grapeshot
SB 2 Echoing Truth *For incidental hate like Sphere of Resistance \ Chalice of the Void that stop me from finding combo*
SB 3 Monastery Mentor *Side in G2 for 1BF, 1 Defense Grid, 1 Preordain*
SB 1 Pithing Needle *For Tormod's Crypt and Wasteland*
SB 3 Silent Gravestone *For Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre*
This is my current pile. A few questions I'm having that I'd appreciate some feedback on:
- For a win conditions is Living Wish + Thassa's Oracle or Grapeshot better? The Oracle path ignores all hate I can think of, but takes up more sideboard slots and requires 3 colors floating instead of the 1 color for grapeshot.
- For tutors should I use Intuition or Gamble? Intuition can get any number of combo pieces, but costs much more and can be Veil of Summered.
- For removal is Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt better? Swords is better creature removal, but lightning bolt can be escaped in combo to make up for extra damage if things go south.
- Is sideboard Monastery Mentor even worth running, or should I be more on an all-in plan?
- Should I run Spell Pierce or Daze? Spell Pierce can be escaped with the remaining U from LED to counter early hate, but Daze is free from hand.
- Is Echo of Eon's needed in wishboard or can I replace that with something better? Maybe use this to free up the slot for Thassa's Oracle?
- Is Green worth it for Reverent Silence? or should I cut it to ease up on the manabase?
I am really liking the "all in" build! It can be BF combo or it can win via ToA, EtW, or Belcher. Here is my current list.
Sorceries (20)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cruel Bargain
2 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts (15)
2 Chrome Mox
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
Creatures (10)
3 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
Instants (9)
1 Brain Freeze
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
Lands (4)
4 Badlands
Enchantments (2)
2 Underworld Breach
I gold fished last night with a list with no BF in it and it went something like this.
Blitz Gold Fish Test - 10 rounds split 5/5 for on play vs on draw.
List:
Underworld Blitz
4 Dark Ritual (DR)
4 Culling the weak (CtL)
2 Thoughtseize (TS)
4 Cabal Therapy (CT)
2 Chrome Mox (CM)
4 Lotus Petal (LP)
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond (LED)
4 Mox Opal (MO)
4 Shield Sphere (SS)
3 Phyrexian Walkers (PW)
2 Hope of Ghirapur (HoG)
2 Dark Petition (DP)
4 Infernal Tutor (IT)
4 Cruel Bargain (CB)
4 Infernal Contract (IC)
2 Underworld Breach (UB)
1 Empty the Warrens (EtW)
1 Tendrils of Agony (ToA)
1 Goblin Charbelcher (GC)
4 Badlands (Land)
G1 - on the draw
Mull 1
PW, SS, CB, DR, DR, MO put CT on bottom
T1 : PW, SS, MO -> DR and CB. Draw LP, DP, IC, CtL. Play LP, DR, CtW ->sac’ing PW, DP to find ToA, ToA
(storm count 10, no protection)
G2 - on the play
Mull 1
LP, SS, CT, CB, HoG, Land - DP to bottom
T1 : Land, HoG, pass
T2 : Draw UB, Attack, Pass (19)
T3 : Draw LED, Attack and Sac HoG (18). Play LP and LED. Sac LP and tap land -> UB and SS, sac LED (3B), escape CB -> draw IC, DR, SS, LED -> play and sac LED -> escape LED and sac (6B) -> escape IT (3B), draw TS, SS, CtW, CtW. Play SS and sac to CtW, CtW saving other SS in play, escape IT (6B) -> draw UB, CT, CT, CtL. Cast CB (5B) on self naming UB. Escape SS and sac to CtL (8B), cast CT -> escape IT (4B), draw MO, IT, LP, IT.
Fizzle at 1 life but LOOK at that chain!
G3 - on the draw
Mull 1
GC, Land, CtW, MO, PW, CT - UB to bottom
T1 : Draw DR. Land, CT. Pass.
T2 : Draw CT. Tap Land, Play PW and sac to CtL, play GC. Pass
T3 : Draw EtW. Tap land, DR, Belcher for 32
( multiple discard spells for protection only cast one but could have cast a second if needed)
G4 - on the play
Keep 7
ToA, CB, PW, DR, MO, Land, DP
T1 : Land, Pass
T2 : Draw UB. Tap Land, DR, CB, draw LP, SS, CB, DR, Play PW, SS, MO, LP. Sac LP, DR, CB, draw CT, GC, CtW, LP. Play LP and sac, CT targeting opponent, tap MO (1B), sac SS to flashback CT, CtW sac PW (4B). ToA for 26
(Late protection via CT, sac creature flashback CT)
G5 - on the draw
Keep 7
HoG, LP, IT, LED, Land, SS, CtW.
T1 : Draw CB. Land, HoG, pass.
T2 : Draw DR. Attack and sac HoG (19). Play LP, Tap Land (1B), DR (3B), SS and sac to CtW (6B), CB (3B), draw SS, LED, CB, LP. Play LP, SS, LED, LED, IT (1B) and both LED (4B 3R), find ToA. ToA for 20.
(HoG protection. It is also interesting to note that you can loop some number of LED and CB/IC if I were to get a UB from the IT. That lines has helped me many times to complete the needed spells for a storm kill)
G6 - on the play
Keep 7
CB, PW, IT, DR, CT, LED, Land.
T1 : Land, CT.
T2 : Draw DR. Play PW sac to CT flashback. Tap Land, DR, DR (5B), LED, IT (3B) and sac LED (3B 3R), find IT. IT (2B 2R), find EtW, EtW for 16
( CT, Flashback CT for protection. I could have fetched UB with IT leaving me with 3B 1R and escaped CB to draw IT, CM, EtW, HoG. This would have fizzled so making goblins was good, especially after double CT.)
G7 - on the draw
Keep 7
TS, ToA, Land, CtW, IC, SS, IC
T1 : Draw IT. Land, TS, pass.
T2 : Draw IT. SS sac to CtW (4B), CB (1B), draw CB, LED, CM, CtW. CM imprint CB and tap (2B), LED, IT sac LED (3R), find UB. UB (1R), escape LED and sac (3B 1R), escape LED and sac (6B 1R), escape ToA for 20.
(Protection in first turn with TS. One more mana would have let me cast it on the turn going off)
G8 - on the play
Mull 2
CB, DR, Land, UB, MO, put DP and TS on bottom
T1 : Land, DR, CB, draw IT, CtW, DR, Land. Pass.
T2 : Draw DP. Land, pass.
T3 : Draw IT. IT reveal DR, find DR. Pass
T4 : Draw CM. DR, DR, DP to find SS (3B). SS, MO, CM no imprint, sac SS to CtW (6B), tap Land (6B 1R), UB (5B). Then escape to a victory through DR and DP into ToA. If UB gets countered I can use the IT in hand to find CB/IC and draw four cards to either refill of continue the chain.
(Slow hand from mull 2 and no protection)
G9 - on the draw
Keep 7
DR, MO, MO, IC, IC, PW, PW
T1 : Draw IT. Play PW, PW, MO, DR, IC, draw Land, CB, GC, SS. Play Land. Pass.
T2 : Draw LP. Play LP and sac (1B), tap MO (2B), play MO and tap (3B), IC, draw Land, LED, SS, CtW. Play Land, SS, SS, LED, CtW sac PW (4B), IT and sac LED (2B 3R), find UB. Play UB (2B 1R), escape CtW (5B 1R), escape IT (4B), find ToA, ToA for 24.
(No protection)
G10 - on the play
Keep 7
Land, Land, LED, HoG, CT, CtW, IC
T1 : Land, HoG, pass.
T2 : Draw LED. Land, CT, Sac HoG to CtW (4B), LED, LED, IC and sac one LED (4B), draw CtW, ToA, CB, DP. Tap Land, DP sac LED (3B 3R), find UB, escape LED, escape ToA for 20.
(I could have tried waiting another turn but one discard should be “good enough”)
I made the changes from last night to what you see in the first part of this post. I will say that adding BF has helped to shorten the chain (sometimes) of spells needed to win. This is mainly due to the lesser mana requirements. I will try to post some more goldfish games later tonight.
If you want to go fast, this is the way!
One of those is more of a corner case:
- Stifle and similar effects
- Pull from Eternity + removal (my Echo Storm list has access to that)
Unexpectedly Absent + Swords to Plowshares works as well from a tiered deck. Stifle is the big one if that's saying anything.
Colors aren't much of a concern though I'd say.
I can suggest trying both, maybe start with a single copy of Intuition instead of the third Gamble. Everytime you draw one of those 3, note down which one you would have preferred. This is what I do all the time and this is why my sideboard might sometime look like shit :D
Try replacing the third copy with a Lightning Bolt, you don't need 3 copies to escape 3 damages at a time. Strictly regarding removal I'd say Swords to Plowshares is always better than Lightning Bolt. Also, it doesn't force you to expose your red source to Wasteland before the combo turn. Lightning might be better in corner cases like against a Misthollow Griffin however.
In my experience (Doomsday, Echo Storm, numerous variants of Tin Fins), the man-plan can go from 2 Monastery Mentor to the full 4 Dark Confidant 4 Monastery Mentor 2 Cavern of Souls. Is the plan already in colors? How many cards are rendered useless in the face of upcoming hate? Is the man-plan also invalidated by upcoming hate and by main deck cards they might have left in? For instance (dumb example), as a Storm variant you kill them with goblins in game 1. Are you willing to run monks into a Plague Engineer? Those might be relevant questions but I haven't sat down answering them yet.
Daze can counter a Thalia though. I'd play Flusterstorm instead if you opted for Spell Pierce however. You lose the ability of countering planeswalkers, artifacts and enchantments but I don't think that's relevant, at least not in game 1 (maybe it is for chalices but you have wish).
Echo is only here to re-gas (nukes the graveyard). It's a nice option to have available for those longer games, especially in your list with the silence effects and the grids.
I think you have to pick between green and white. Silence and 2 mana mass-disenchant versus veil and free wishable mass-disenchant. You can try straight blue red with bounces and countermagic but I'd intuitively think silence/veil are simply too good to pass on.
If you're running white MD (like silence/STP) how do you justify not running ETutor? It is negative CA, but EOT opponents turn it provides card quality like nothing else - searching up you combo, accel, or even protection like grid? Like I'm seeing these lists with white and ponder and no Etutor and I just don't understand why you would prefer Ponder? CA is great, but for a three card combo I find the lack of variance just so much better. For lists that don't run white MD I can sort of understand the justification against running white FOR Etutor - it's been shown at this point that the Combo is strong enough to make many many shells playable - but if you're already decided to run white? IDK, seems really really good and I haven't seen much in playtest results or reasoning as to why you would avoid it?
Shameless plug: https://github.com/angrybacon/gitaxian-probability
I read earlier a comment here about Python and statistics. This is a little something I've written in the context of counting the theoretical turn 1 wins with several decks I was on at the moment.
Premature optimisation being one of my sadistic defects, I naturally expanded it to count a specific set of hands amongst specific deck lists fed to the script. You basically write a slate that contains specific starting hands and it will compare the scenarii to the provided decklist.
Thanks for posting your results! It looks fun.
So you were goldfishing about Turn 2-Turn 3 on average? Sounds on par with the speed of our other builds. Most of our lists goldfished turn 2-3ish with protection, but also had options to play slow around hate.
To go fast and all-in the goal should be turn 1. Any way to speed it up?
That's amazing. Something like that, but less comprehensive, was developed in the Belcher thread years ago when we were trying to find the ratios that optimized going off on turn 1. This looks better.
Is there a way to trick it to generalize the starting hands, e.g. when a Tutor could replace one or more cards? Or would they have to be input as separate cases? I suppose that's not much extra work.
Yes absolutely. If you look at a one of the slate files, take Doomsday's for instance: if you want any 3 lands, you input:
Since in that slate you marked all card names referring to what you consider as a land with an L.Code:(3, 'L')
For a starting hand of at least 1 blue land, 2 any other land and 4 unknowns:
If however you wanted exactly 1 blue land, 2 any other lands and 4 unknowns you would input instead:Code:(1, 'U'), (2, 'W|B|R|G')
The syntax that is supported is somewhat self-explanatory though not exhaustive, so I may write a little documentation on it if that's needed.Code:(1, '=U'), (2, 'W|B|R|G')
I could revive a little the code if I find the time, see if I can still understand what I did 2 years ago. If not split a little more, add a slate for the deck and a couple sample lists for people to get accustomed to the tool before making their own scenarii :-)
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