Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567
Results 121 to 139 of 139

Thread: Song of Creation Storm

  1. #121

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Have you played it in any more leagues or challenges since?
    I did play some games the other day, experimented with Pentad prism instead of dark rituals, it did not work out. In theory you could drop a prism of a mox diamond/chrome mox + land t1, then have access to 5 mana turn 2 without any color problems. But in practice i often wanted to cast discard t1, and then a ritual would have been better t2 unless i had exactly song in hand.

  2. #122
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Looking at some of Bryant Cook's recent content, I see why multiple Carpet is so good in this meta and why the multiple Empty plan may be weaker than it used to be.

    In my games the main advantage of maindeck Empty was having a 4-mana line turn 1 OTP that goes off through FoW and before Chalice/Daze/Pierce/REB/Fluster/Stifle are online. You can just play under their hate, instead of having to beat or play around hate.

    Wish -> Empty is a 6-mana line, which is much harder to execute turn 1 consistently. Empty is much better earlier than later, and having it main vs SB reduces the mana requirement. The whole point was to use it early before hate is active, like Belcher does, to nullify cards in their hand. Also a lot of those decks with multiple anti-Storm cards have a hard time dealing with 10-14 Goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    The engines shouldn't be compared to each other in terms of power, but how they fair vs your opponent's hate. As long as Peer into the Abyss is immune to Pyroblast, Stifle and graveyard hate, as long as Song of Creation is immune to Stifle and graveyard hate and as long as Empty the Warrens is immune to Pyroblast and graveyard hate then you have diversity of threats to play around hate.
    Peer is also weak to Flusterstorm, like Empty, while Song dodges it. Peer is much harder to resolve through Mindbreak Trap (Burning Wish -> Peer is 2, and if you cast any mana sources or Veil that's 3). Song is much better at winning through Trap. You can cast Song as the 1st spell. Once resolved you draw even if they counter any individual spell, and you can drop multiple Defense Grids before resolving Tendrils. If they do Stifle/Trap your Tendrils, it's very easy to refuel with an Echo and go off again the same turn because Song keeps drawing more cards. And if you still fail somehow, Song stays in play for next turn and makes you EOT discard Echo of Eons... These are relevant differences for playing through hate. Pyroblast is the biggest problem, but Grid helps.

    I think Peer is a lot better in Dark Ritual decks like TES. A 9-mana line is very expensive for this deck, when my alternative engines are 3-6 mana. Mana requirements affect speed, which affect how much hate the opponent can assemble before your combo turn and how much you have to fight through. Lower-mana lines can go off right after a D7 without passing the turn, which keeps you under the same Veil protection instead of needing a new Veil.

    The all in on D7 and Empty plan is really linear, but it's faster, more consistent and grinds through counter spells. You only have to be so diverse, which is why I think you either ditch Song of Creation and go all in on D7s and Empty or you keep Song of Creation and only wish for Empty.
    I see some perks to it. But going too linear on D7-> Empty makes me weak to stuff like Plague Engineer and Terminus, which the opponent will know to prioritize if that's what I do every game.

    Song is also faster than Empty. Both cost 4. 1RUG is only slightly harder than 3R in my manabase (double Rite is the main case where I would have too much red). I'd argue MD Empty is about 0.5 turns faster than Song, but SB Empty is slower than Song. And that's just to resolve. Song wins in 0-1 turn, while Empty wins in 2-3 turns. Empty coming down faster is good for playing under hate, but Empty winning slower is worse for racing other combo.

    I see perks to both in different matchups, which is why I diversified to run both.

  3. #123

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I don't see a reason to compare Song and Peer at all, the latter is a post board win condition with Carpet of Flowers and Burning Wish.

    I'd get testing with Carpet, it will make you reconsider a lot of things about the deck that you'd dismiss otherwise. If the D7/Goblins plan is too linear for your MD, I don't see how that can be any less true for wish?

  4. #124
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I don't see a reason to compare Song and Peer at all, the latter is a post board win condition with Carpet of Flowers and Burning Wish.

    I'd get testing with Carpet, it will make you reconsider a lot of things about the deck that you'd dismiss otherwise. If the D7/Goblins plan is too linear for your MD, I don't see how that can be any less true for wish?
    Already running 3 Carpets for a week. It has been amazing vs Delver.

    Still, Carpet accelerates into the engines I already have like Song or hardcast Echo. There's no need for a 9 mana line. If Carpet produces extra mana, I can just float mana through a draw spell to help beat conditional counters (Daze, Pierce) and easily cast spells from the new cards.

    Watching TES streams, their Peer lines are often weak to Daze/Pierce because they just barely have enough mana. They can also be disrupted by little things like mana denial, burn turning off fetchlands, tax effects, Chalice @ 1 turning off Dark Ritual, etc.. That's because they just barely have exactsies for this line. Black storm decks still need Peer because they have no other line that draws that many cards not dependent on the GY or life total. Song already does that for me. Instead I could use that SB slot for a card to beat hate, like a 4th Grid (REB, Mindbreak Trap, Stifle, Veil, disenchants).

  5. #125

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Already running 3 Carpets for a week. It has been amazing vs Delver.

    Still, Carpet accelerates into the engines I already have like Song or hardcast Echo. There's no need for a 9 mana line. If Carpet produces extra mana, I can just float mana through a draw spell to help beat conditional counters (Daze, Pierce) and easily cast spells from the new cards.

    Watching TES streams, their Peer lines are often weak to Daze/Pierce because they just barely have enough mana. They can also be disrupted by little things like mana denial, burn turning off fetchlands, tax effects, Chalice @ 1 turning off Dark Ritual, etc.. That's because they just barely have exactsies for this line. Black storm decks still need Peer because they have no other line that draws that many cards not dependent on the GY or life total. Song already does that for me. Instead I could use that SB slot for a card to beat hate, like a 4th Grid (REB, Mindbreak Trap, Stifle, Veil, disenchants).

    Unless your opponents are trash, they should be using Spell Pierce and Daze on Carpet of Flowers, Veil of Summer and Defense Grid. Peer is for getting around Stifle, Red Elemental Blast and graveyard hate when you're sitting on Burning Wish - granted you can sort of do that via hard casting Echo of Eons, but it's slow as hell.

    The deck needs a plan C for Burning Wish, because Empy the Warrens is not an option as the game drags. IDK, maybe Replenish?

    Edit: Replenish is actually pretty good, if you have Song in your hand it turns LED into Lotus without risking Stifle and so playing it out can pick up value with Carpet.

  6. #126
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,192

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I thought I'd mention having played Song of Creation in EDH in a Thrasios/Ludevic RUG list, its an absolute beast of an engine.

    I've found that one way I've liked to restart the engine is to play Grove of the Burn Willows and Punishing Fire. I also use Maze of Ith and Krosan Restorer for infinite mana with Thrasios to draw the deck, then Chain Stasis for infinite mana afterwards, with infinite untaps for Willow/Fire as a nice compact win condition which is otherwise a utility synergy.

    The reason I mention this is because Punishing Fire happens to be excellent for killing hatebears at 2 toughness. It also snipes Delver, Ad Nauseam to low life, or UB Shadow at low life.



    Also, I remember an old strategy from Kobold Storm which could find a place in a combo list like Song Storm builds in which Multani's Presence and Chalice counter all the 0 costs to draw cards. With Song thats draw 3 per 0 cmc. However, the option to play Chalice at 1 means changing the deck structure, perhaps too much. I wonder if Chalice has enough functional utility to be played as a lock piece and a combo piece in a deck like this one. Also, I've found Multani's Presence and Flusterstorm has been effective in the format I can play where I live; respond to infinite spell loops by Flusterstorming your own copies when you have Multani's Presence to draw your deck in response.
    Luck is a residue of design.



    I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
    http://soundcloud.com/vacrix


    Expect me or die. I play SI.

  7. #127

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I thought I'd mention having played Song of Creation in EDH in a Thrasios/Ludevic RUG list, its an absolute beast of an engine.

    I've found that one way I've liked to restart the engine is to play Grove of the Burn Willows and Punishing Fire. I also use Maze of Ith and Krosan Restorer for infinite mana with Thrasios to draw the deck, then Chain Stasis for infinite mana afterwards, with infinite untaps for Willow/Fire as a nice compact win condition which is otherwise a utility synergy.

    The reason I mention this is because Punishing Fire happens to be excellent for killing hatebears at 2 toughness. It also snipes Delver, Ad Nauseam to low life, or UB Shadow at low life.



    Also, I remember an old strategy from Kobold Storm which could find a place in a combo list like Song Storm builds in which Multani's Presence and Chalice counter all the 0 costs to draw cards. With Song thats draw 3 per 0 cmc. However, the option to play Chalice at 1 means changing the deck structure, perhaps too much. I wonder if Chalice has enough functional utility to be played as a lock piece and a combo piece in a deck like this one. Also, I've found Multani's Presence and Flusterstorm has been effective in the format I can play where I live; respond to infinite spell loops by Flusterstorming your own copies when you have Multani's Presence to draw your deck in response.
    This is all really cool technology, thank you for sharing it!

    It's interesting that you mentioned Chalice, because for me this deck actually started out as a chalice deck. I ended up moving them to the sideboard so that the engine could be leaner, but now that the online meta has moved away from Maverick / Loam / DnT / Prison Stompy style lists towards all blue all the time, I've been exploring a list that runs 4x Chalice in the main again.

    I love the interaction with Multani's Presence, that's really cool. The problem I'm anticipating is that the zero-drop mana producers are actually critical to winning the game, since I generally try to resolve song and win on the spot (which generally means I've tapped all my lands). Then, I rely on Opals, Petals, Moxes, and LED's to build enough mana to Burning Wish for Tendrils. So in order for the Chalice on Zero + Multani's Presence to work, I'd need a way to remove the chalice from play.

  8. #128
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Multani's Presence tech from Kobold Storm is fun, but I think would be win-more/lose-more here.

    Like SamuraiFunn said all versions of the deck already win with Song in play. Getting extra draw isn't that important. The challenge is getting disrupted before you can get Song. Plus the 0cc mana rocks are also essential to resolve, as they are they primary mana engine to cast spells and a win condition.

    Punishing Fire is interesting tech to beat hatebears and always have a spell to cast, but not sure if it's better than Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives.

  9. #129
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Replenish is a good idea. The SB is tight though.

    This is what I'm on right now

    RUG Song of Storms


    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 19
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Defense Grid

    //Spells: 22
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Rite of Flame
    3 Veil of Summer
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Empty the Warrens
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Pulverize
    1 Cave-In
    1 Consign // Oblivion
    1 Echoing Truth
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Carpet of Flowers


    The current SB mapping vs fair blue is:
    -4 Gamble
    +3 Carpet
    +1 Empty

    Echoing Truth may also come in for 1 Rite. Basically I am trying to cut down on card disadvantage, to be able to better mount multiple attempts through disruption. Cutting Gamble really hurts refueling lines though, so this may not be correct. TES cuts Rites for Carpet. That may be better.

    Vs Hatebears and Prison the mapping is:
    -4 Veil/Grid (depending on which is worse)
    +2 Empty
    +1 Echoing Truth
    +1 Consign

    In the current meta, BR Reanimator and 4C Loam have lost popularity, so it may be correct to cut the Surgicals. Then there's room for Replenish and 1 other card, maybe a 4th Veil or Grid (which means finding another cut vs blue).

    Because blue is so big right now, it may be correct to swap the 4th Rite for a 4th Veil maindeck.

  10. #130

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Replenish is a good idea. The SB is tight though.

    This is what I'm on right now

    RUG Song of Storms

    Replenish is quite good, I've liked it a lot. If you want more MD disruption and SB space, I think the 2nd Taiga is redundant.


    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 19
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Defense Grid

    //Spells: 22
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Rite of Flame
    3 Veil of Summer
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Empty the Warrens
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Pulverize
    1 Cave-In
    1 Consign // Oblivion
    1 Echoing Truth
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Carpet of Flowers


    The current SB mapping vs fair blue is:
    -4 Gamble
    +3 Carpet
    +1 Empty

    Echoing Truth may also come in for 1 Rite. Basically I am trying to cut down on card disadvantage, to be able to better mount multiple attempts through disruption. Cutting Gamble really hurts refueling lines though, so this may not be correct. TES cuts Rites for Carpet. That may be better.

    Vs Hatebears and Prison the mapping is:
    -4 Veil/Grid (depending on which is worse)
    +2 Empty
    +1 Echoing Truth
    +1 Consign

    In the current meta, BR Reanimator and 4C Loam have lost popularity, so it may be correct to cut the Surgicals. Then there's room for Replenish and 1 other card, maybe a 4th Veil or Grid (which means finding another cut vs blue).

    Because blue is so big right now, it may be correct to swap the 4th Rite for a 4th Veil maindeck.

  11. #131
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Good point. Lands aren't bad with Song, but I'll try out:
    -1 Taiga
    +1 Veil of Summer

    -2 Surgical Extraction
    +1 Replenish
    +1 Engineered Explosives

    Replenish opens up a good lategame Wish line against these grindy control decks.

    EE helps with SB mapping to board in more slots against nonblue decks, also killing a wide range of permanent hate while being a "free" artifact during Song combo chains.

  12. #132
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Amidst all the UR Delver mayhem, none other than JosefK quietly got 19th with Song of Storms.
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...itten_th_place

    This makes me happy

    His build

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 26
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Mishra's Bauble
    3 Urza's Bauble
    4 Defense Grid

    //Spells: 19
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Strike it Rich
    4 Gamble
    1 Faithless Looting
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Galvanic Relay
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Lands: 7
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Mountain
    1 Taiga
    1 Volcanic Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Faithless Looting
    2 Xantid Swarm
    2 Chain of Vapor
    3 Nature's Claim


    This is interesting. New tech is using Galvanic Relay as an alternate "pass the turn" storm engine. Strike it Rich functions as another "free" spell, fixes colors, and enables Metalcraft. I don't know if it's actually better than other options. But creating a Treasure for next turn is useful with Galvanic Relay's "pass the turn".

    Hope of Ghirapur over Xantid seems good. It's easier to cast off the lands and turns on Mox Opal.

    Shattering Spree might want to be Pulverize in this meta, though that's harder to support on so few lands.

    Running this low a land count, Land Grant becomes a good card. Free spell to build storm. Finds Taiga for Rev Silence/Pulverize out of the Wishboard. Mid combo it's a free spell and you can either abuse Song's extra land drops or just fail to find. Land Grant tested well in my Belcher-esque red-heavy builds with <8 lands, but not in the 15 land build I had above.

    Back when I was testing RUG Song of Storms, it had good Delver matchup. The maindeck was optimized towards fighting blue decks (Grid + Veil). Most of my testing was against RUG Delver, UR Delver and Snowko and I was grinding positive win rates. Although Delver's threats have gotten better, their disruption package is the same (Forces + Daze + REB) so theoretically this deck should be able to fight through it. Given the current meta, I'm kind of excited to try to thrash blue decks with Storm, especially as they've cut FoNs and Pierces for creatures and cut Flusterstorm for REB. This deck can also storm kill through Esper Sentinels + Ethersworn Canonist!

    I'll have to test this version out. My inclination is to go for a build with Veils, more lands, and fewer Baubles. Maybe this configuration makes the Relay lines better. But Veil really boosts the blue matchup. It's awkward to cast with Song, but it makes the Echo and Wish storm lines better. You can also bluff with it just to draw out Force. I think there are already enough "free" spells to chain with Song consistently without Baubles. When the 0cc count's higher it's definitely easier to autopilot wins. With lower count there are still winning lines but they depend more on careful sequencing and more prone to fizzling from player error. I get the appeal of insulating from fizzling with more 0 cmc, but personally I'd rather have a value card in there over filler. Especially Brainstorm. There are a bunch of stack tricks with Brainstorm & LED in Song chains, while Brainstorm is just generically strong in non-Song lines too.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-08-2021 at 10:57 AM.

  13. #133
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I'll have to test this more but I think passing the turn with Galvanic Relay is probably worse than using the 3 mana to try to dig for gas, which in practice Brainstorm does pretty well.

    If Brainstorm hits Gamble, Burning Wish, or LED+Echo then you can keep going that same turn using the 2 leftover mana you would have spent on Relay. If it hits Song or Grid or cantrips, you may have to pass the turn but you'd have to do that with Relay anyway. Brainstorm could brick. But Relay could too. Galvanic Relay needs at least storm 4 to dig deeper than Brainstorm. If you do build to high storm for Relay, it costs more resources and then you need it to refuel just to go off again. Something like Brainstorm or Gamble costs very few resources to dig, in comparison.

    If Relay is being used post-Echo when the Storm count is high but you hit a weak 7, again I think Brainstorm fixes that to some extent, and another option is to just play Empty the Warrens. If you're passing the turn, might a well pass the turn with 10-16 goblin tokens for only 1 more mana.

    I want to test out 1-2 Urza's Saga here. Colorless mana hurts, but it also tutors for LED or Hope of Ghirapur and acts as an uncounterable win condition with all these artifacts.

  14. #134
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    With the new cards I'm on this for now.

    RUG Song of Storms


    //Lands: 13
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Island

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 20
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Defense Grid
    1 Engineered Explosives

    //Spells: 23
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Veil of Summer
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Galvanic Relay
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Pyroclasm
    2 Chain of Vapor
    2 Brazen Borrower
    1 Defense Grid
    3 Carpet of Flowers


    Tries to go off turn 2-3 with protection. Turn 1s possible if not worried about counters, average goldfish about Turn 2.
    ~50% of lines are with Echo
    ~35-40% with Song
    Rest are natural storm lines with Wish or boarded in Storm cards

    Maindeck has 4 Veil + 3 Grid vs blue decks.
    Postboard: +3 Carpet +1 Grid; -4 Gamble (vs slow blue) or Rite of Flame (vs fast blue). Option to bring in 1 Empty 0-1 Relay to be really grindy (Wish for these strains mana)
    For prison & hatebears (permanent-based hate): -4 Veil +2 Borrower +2 Chain

    Still not sold on Galvanic Relay.
    4th Brainstorm seems better than 1st Relay, at least in a build with more lands like this. But SB Relay does solve one problem I had with the deck: Burning Wish lines with only 3 mana, 1 short of Empty or Tendrils. Instead of fizzling or going for another blind Echo (which needs LED), those hands can now Relay with high storm count and set up to go off next turn. I think that's relevant often enough to take up 1 SB slot.

    EE works as a "Bauble": 0 cmc on combo turn, converts to a card outside the combo. Except I like the ability to destroy a problem vs just slowtripping.

    Flex slots are Borrowers, EE, 4th Grid, Relay. I've gone back and forth between Pyroclasm and Cave-In. Depending on the meta, SB might want 2 Surgical for BR Reanimator but most other GY decks are slow enough to be hated out by Echo already. I used to run more lands. Might miss the 14th land but trying 13 for now.

    Urza's Saga wasn't worth it. List is too tight, no room for filler that doesn't help storm lines.

    Edit: It looks like the list needs more Baubles to not fizzle with Song, but that may come down to the pilot and playstyle. There are sequencing tricks that let you squeeze more digging power out of the cards (stacking draw triggers, Brainstorm + fetch to draw 5, cracking LED with draw 4-9 on the stack to use mana on spells). After putting in over 200 games with Song builds last year, I think it's consistent enough without Baubles but YMMV. So I prefer to use that space on useful role players. If I wanted another free spell, Manamorphose would be the first choice (draws extra card, fixes colors, imprints well on Mox, instant speed enables more stack tricks with draw triggers). I had it in previous builds and loved it, but space is tight overall.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-09-2021 at 03:32 AM.

  15. #135

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I do agree about galvanic relay, it's not that good. The thing is I want something that's hard to interact with and could be very impactful and galvanic kind of fits that. I don't think brainstorm is impactful enough for me but I'm still looking for something other than galvanic.

    Strike it rich felt great, it's so much easier to just cast song t2 when you go t1 strike it rich. The flashback is also nice to prevent fizzling out with song.

    I think the low land count is quite important to the way I play the deck, Gamble becomes a lot better when you can empty your hand so you are sure that the echo will go to the graveyard even if you don't have led.

    Xantid swarm over hope of ghirapur is mostly because hope needs to connect, xantid just have to attack. That's pretty important difference vs delvers and coatls.

  16. #136
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I'm warming up to Galvanic Relay after seeing it in action in TES and in Pauper Squirrelstorm. I like the 1 copy in the SB to wish for, and maybe boarding in 1-2 copies postboard in the matchups where I would have boarded in extra Empties to have redundant engines vs disruption. Relay plays the role of Empty as "backup pass-the-turn wincon" but for less mana investment and without losing to Blazing Volley, Terminus or Plague Engineer. I like that it also does a better job of fighting Hymns than sculpting and passing the turn. Sculpt+pass the turn worked in the Oko meta, but now that discard is back in bigger numbers being able to play from exile is useful.

    A possible backup wincon is Aeve, Progenitor Ooze, which TES has started playing as a 1-of. RUG storm should be able to pay the triple green even more easily, especially with Manamorphose (which also helps pay for Song and cast Tendrils without LED).

    I guess I play the deck differently. I Gamble for LED or Echo if I have the other, but otherwise I can Wish for Echo or Gamble for Song or cantrip into gas. With the higher land count, sometimes the plan is even to slow roll Echo #1 from hand to avoid grave hate. By running more Baubles and fewer cantrips, I guess you're more dependent on Gamble to fix your hand, which then means you need to build to optimize Gamble. That makes sense.

    Good point about Xantid over Hope. I would have previously boarded in Carpets instead of either, but Bryant Cook made a good point that Delver has sped up and reduced dependency on U lands while control has gained Prismatic Ending, so Carpet got worse in both matchups. That's where I would considering reverting back to the old plan vs Delver (board in more gas via Empties instead of disruption), a role that Galvanic Relay or Ooze could fill.

  17. #137

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    The problem with relay in this deck is that very often i relay for 4-5 cards but i can really only cast 1 action spell the next turn (either you just flip 1, or you flip like multiple songs/EoEs) and then opp counters your action and now you are hellbent and next top deck is.... another relay :)

    I've tried to tweak the deck to get better relays by cutting defense grids and adding overmasters + veil of summers. Veil works really well with relay, and overmaster is really good with veil and echo. So far it felt good, but i will have to test it some more.

    I've considered Aeve, but without any way to reliably tutor for it it feels a bit to random for me.

  18. #138
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,192

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Thoughts on Eladamriís Vineyard in the Rite of Flame slot? The net mana is equivalent to a second Rite, and it sticks around. Granted, the opponent gets GG as well but often they arenít in the right colors to use it for much. It does two things there; the opponent may try to make a greedy play and tap out, or they can use the mana to avoid tapping out.

    Vineyard is comparable to Carpet of Flowers. Similar one green mana investment. However, itís never dead like Carpet. Sometimes Carpet doesnít add more than 1 mana per game, but you do get the mana the same turn you play the Carpet, and Carpet is better in the draw chain, when it does add mana. Daze changes the amount of mana you get from Carpet. If the opponent knows you need it, they can bounce their only Island with Daze and hold up Force. When I played Carpets in SI, clever RUG thresh players would even Wasteland themselves to play around the Carpet.

    Vineyard adds 2, every time. Nice not having to rely on the opponentís mana base makes it consistent, add about the same level where Carpet would be ideal: 2 mana. Any more than that is likely the opponentís misplay. One mana against control on a low curve is about where they would prefer to keep it if they can.

    Against Stax, it lets the opponent lay down practically an extra piece each turn, but it makes it very easy for stax to lay down too many pieces and be overextended into something like Vandalblast, which is easy to pay for via Vineyard. The one thing I had to get used to with playing Vineyard was accounting for the opponent that can take advantage of the Vineyard, and loses everything by overextending. One might get more value out of something like Pyroclasm as well.

    In considering Burning Wish lines against stax, Vineyard seems ideal actually. If I have to play around Trinisphere, I want my mana source to be perpetual, not an accelerant, that way I also have mana to get rid of the stax pieces after Burning Wish.

    Against storm, they might be able to combo off sooner, but often they need to do a bit of sculpting to get ready. Itís certainly a risk, perhaps worth taking considering how much Vineyard could improve other matchups.

    Vineyard doesnít help in the draw chain unless you pass the turn, in which case at least you will still have the extra mana. Convenient that both the engine and Vineyard are enchantments.

    The two main engines need 1G (+UR) and 2 (+U) or 4 (+UU). Against fair decks, Vineyard enables turn 2-3 more often, and against control itís extra green mana for Veil or exactly 2 for Defense Grid, or itís enough extra mana to play around Daze and Pierce. That it sticks around to keep adding mana seems quite good. If the control player stops you, your ritual effect is still there to help you go again. By that time, more mana sources means you might be completely safe from Daze and Pierce.

    I played both Vineyard effects in my old RUG Song storm in EDH and it worked quite well. In my newer BUG Thrasios and Tormod list, it enables turn 2 Naus or Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog. Once I got used to playing with it, I won almost every game where I played it, at least in my meta where Iím the fast combo list. In particular, EDH has 3 or 4 players where more than one player may decide to overextend. So tutoring up Culling Ritual has been an excellent synergy.

    Vineyard might be better in a legacy list playing Naus or an even more mana hungry engine like Peer into the Abyss, but I figured I would mention it. Land, Vineyard is 3 mana when you untap, add a land drop and youíre already at 4, so the cmc of Song without even having to use any 0 drops.
    Luck is a residue of design.



    I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
    http://soundcloud.com/vacrix


    Expect me or die. I play SI.

  19. #139
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,432

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I like it as a SB slot over Carpet (for the Daze / low-Island reasons you mention in current Ux decks) but not maindeck over Rite. The big problem is Vineyard cannot make mana on the combo turn, while Rite is always mana-positive. Red mana is also better than green (1R for Burning Wish, 1R for Song, 1R for Empty, 1R for Relay, R into 2nd Rite... while still making 2 for Echo and 2 for Grid). The need to ramp from G -> GGG is low. Carpet is usually used for nongreen mana.

    The biggest drain on Green mana is Veil of Summer, but that's sometimes cast on the opponent's turn and not relevant in all matchups. Post-SB vs blue you can bring in Vineyard (instead of Carpet), setting up next turn with extra GG for Song+Veil and Echo+Veil lines, also playing through Daze. It also helps vs Stax and 3sphere like you said. But that's only some matchups.

    I think the color and timing restrictions will matter more often than the quantity of mana (Naus + Peer decks would care more about raw mana ramp).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)