After some testing, I think that Experimental Frenzy might just be better than Daretti in the mono-R all-in lists. Unlike Daretti, Frenzy can act as yet another mana sink under the combo (an inconsistent one, admittedly) and Frenzy is conditionally a better top-deck late game.
Nice results there! I also suspect some luck, but it's still a promising sign for sure!Originally Posted by Tobitzki
Big Chandra in the sideboard is appealing even without the whole Dragon Stompy transformation. Excellent suggestion. As far as the interesting transformation idea: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what matchups that's really good against and where you'd just stick with the combo plan.
Edit: Chandra's -3 ability doesn't even kill Mr. Fox. Besties
That monored list looks good. Very close to the list I tested goldfishing and against Delver.
Backup Zirdas main is a good idea. In real games I was getting wrecked if they had an answer to my Companion. It also lets you board in stuff like Chalice, breaking the Companion rule, while still keeping the combo in the deck. Defense Grid works for that plan too, both as a Karn target and to board in.
Is Hangarback Walker any good? I think these "pass the turn" wincons are just waiting to be wrecked by Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Tendrils of Agony, Marit Lage, Ensnaring Bridge, etc... Walking Ballista + Karn is already 8 "win this turn" wincons. Foundry gives you 3 more that already depend on passing the turn. Are even more wincons needed?
Maybe
-2 Hangarback
+1 Walking Ballista
+1 Cavern of Souls / Mox Opal
Daretti might be better as something else too. At 4 cmc we already have 4xKarn as an engine. Seems like the deck needs gas lower in the curve instead.
The vintage world also seems to be testing with Zidra
Interesting win con mentioned was Spawnsire of Ulamog (into Sideboarded Eldrazi). This could mean transformational sb into S&T?
What does Spawnsire add? Once you have infinite mana you just need a card that says "if I have infinite mana, win the game". Any mana sink will do.
Spawnsire is a manasink but requires more slots used in the SB to function. At the very least 1 Emrakul to take an extra turn, probably Ulamog too to destroy things like Karakas and Ensnaring Bridge. Why use up 3 slots when 1 card would do?
I think it's a vintage idea to deal with the fact that they can't run more than 1 Karn, which should speak to the correctness of running Karn. As for what Spawnsire would add compared to other win-cons, you hit the nail on the head - if opponent has a troublesome perm in play you can Ulamog it. Just spying on the vintage community to see if they have other ideas that we can steal.
Right, but the irony is those troublesome permanents I named don't even stop the Ballista/Mine wincon. They're extra obstacles you have to remove to win with Eldrazi that you wouldn't care about otherwise. Using Spawnsire forces you to remove even more hate.
Karn can also find answers. I think with 4x Karn we don't need it. Also Vintage has Channel, which makes Eldrazi more tempting outside the combo.
Their list also uses things like Time Vault/Key and Paradoxical Outcome+Moxes. Vintage has other tricks we can't use.
Yup - that is why my legacy list is pretty simple. One thing though, just like in Breach the more I test the more cantrips I want to run. My edits to the list from 04-10-2020, 05:19 PM, I think would be -2 PON, -1 Daze, -1 Astrolab, -1 Snow-Covered Island, +2 Ponder, +3 Preordain
Oh yeah, my cantrip build is similar to yours but had
0 PON
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
The cantrips are big for consistency, especially finding postboard answers.
I think PON is bad here. 1-2 copies were good in Breach mainly because of the ability to cast for free from the graveyard. Here it could easily lead to a game loss, e.g. if the Karn activation gets Stifled and you have to pass the turn.
I've been thinking a bit more about the mono-R all in list: really no reason not to play 1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep in place of a mountain for random occasions where giving Mr. Fox or Hope of Ghirapur first strike is relevant.
Looked for some alternative win conditions.
Mill:
Ambassador Laquatus
Mindshrieker
Whetstone
Damage:
Goblin Cannon
Magma Mine
Walking Ballista
Infinite 4/4s or 1/1 flyers:
Retrofitter Foundry
Cast any card in your library:
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Urza might be kind of nice, but I think Walking Ballista is still probably our best bet since it seems to have the most utility outside of the combo.
You forgot Karn, the Great Creator.
Generally, the win con needs to be colorless because otherwise you're adding mana required for the combo (since the monoliths/Zidra only produces infinite colorless mana). So while Urza would be great, that's an additional UU to combo off.
i have a bant urza karn oko list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2919649#online
Yeah I have to agree with Cire. Colored ones slow down your critical turn by adding additional mana requirements. The R/W R/W part is already the bottleneck. The deck only requires 2 R/W R/W to win the game.
Karn is the best wincon and should be a 4x in all lists. Why?
1) It serves the basic function of "infinite colorless mana: win the game", via anything like 1x Ballista in the SB.
2) It has text outside the combo turn, finding combo pieces or protection or Lattice.
3) In case you can't win (e.g. Leyline of Sanctity), you can still grab Lattice and be far enough ahead that you should be able to find some way to win from there.
After that, the 2nd best is a toss-up between Ballista and Magma Mine
Ballista: Can be uncounterable via Cavern of Souls. Has text outside the combo, e.g. cast for X=2, chump something and ping X/1 and X/2 dorks.
Mine: Can be easily cast pre-combo to turn on Mox Opal and Lion's Eye Diamond
I prefer Mine in the all-in build and Ballista in the grindier one.
Other wincons like Goblin Cannon and Whetstone could work but have fewer relevant usecases than Karn, Mine and Ballista.
From my experience trying StP main in similar A+B combo decks (Zirda, Thought Lash, Breach), I think Ponder is much better maindeck than StP. Removal might have value in the SB, but most of the time you want to accelerate towards your own threat rather than lose a card and tempo to remove theirs.
Minor edit - so I've been running 3 Walking Ballista and 3 Karn with the intention of having 1 SB Walking Ballista, but you could always just have SB Goblin Cannon/Magma Mine. FTW, as someone else who has been running the UW list do you think we should fit in the 4th Ballista in the MD? So far I have no issue in test runs of assembling the combo.
Also note - the Spawnsire (ulamogSB) kill can get through Leyline if that becomes an issue for whatever reason.
A couple of interesting takes on Zirda in this Joe Dyer article:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...onsters-part-2
I'm baffled by the lack of a monolith in the board as a Karn target in both decks.
Edit: Initially I was skeptical of Liquimetal Coating, but I do like opening up as many lines with Karn as possible. In the builds that make a lot of mana, it's easy enough to go Karn>Liquimetal and then destroy a land every subsequent turn.
Last edited by Wanderlust; 04-15-2020 at 07:18 AM.
https://imgur.com/a/Ws7QXrv
So basically, this is the shelli came up with and i feel it has a lot of potential; sideboard needs to be trimmed and maybe we could substitute leds with astrolabes and get snow basic (also -1 seat) if we wish for consistency (labe + teferi synergy) over speed (led+emry),sideboard needs to be trimmed. Also, i'd love to give the deck a different name cause the one i picked sounds cool af to me
Cool ideas.
This is what I came up with based on some of the ideas in this thread:
// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Magma Mine
// 13 Creature
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Goblin Welder
1 Walking Ballista
// 21 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
4 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator
// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Liquimetal Coating
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Basalt Monolith
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Lion's Eye Diamond
// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Walking Ballista
SB: 1 Zirda
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Abrade
30 games of goldfishing yieled me the following results: T1 kill: 4 games, T2 kill 9 games, T3 kill 16 games and T4 kill in 1 game. Although the results are quite impressive, the deck lacks protection so perhaps playing Hope of Ghirapur or FoW is ultimately necessary. A longer game can be played with Karn. Perhaps a big artifact with an activated ability should be in the maindeck to provide some alternate form of win condition (Clockwork Dragon or something?) that can be abused with the Welders.
Team R&D
Oh, yeah I've been running 4 Karn and 4 Ballista main, with 1 Mine in the SB.
Ballista has been useful to hardcast in games. It can ping Delver, Young Pyromancer, Thalia...
There were games where I got disrupted badly but was beating down with a 2/2 Ballista to still clock them, and you can use extra Monoliths and sol lands to add more counters. It's enough of a threat that it draws removal or can chump block them, while they spend all their resources stopping the combo, and then you still get to remove counters and ping.
Magma Mine can also accumulate counters for a win. In a different built with maindeck Mines I won one game against Delver where I slowly added Mine counters and killed them, but then I lost another where I had Mine @ 5 (them at 5 life) and had it Stifled. With Ballista at least it's also a body in combat and you can't Stifle all the damage.
Can we please stop calling the fox Fantastic Mr. Fox and start calling it Power Artifox? Much more descriptive
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