Currently WOTC does not allow any proxies at sanctioned events. If a store wants to allow proxies, they lose all the incentives that WOTC offers for sanctioned events (price support, marketing support, players earning points, the ability to win a trip to a pro tour etc).
Reserve list cards (duals, power 9 etc) have an absurd price tag because WOTC can never reprint them. As a result, vintage is dead and legacy is at death’s door.
If WOTC institutes a policy saying that reserved list cards and only reserve list cards can be proxied (if wotc insists, they could mandate that all proxies only be done with a sharpie on basic lands only) at sanctioned events, would you be upset?
If you are a legacy player, this would ensure that Legacy could thrive once again. Its the best format in magic but is dying only due to the reserve list.
If you are a collector, your duals are still valuable, in fact they are likely to gain value faster due to a resurgence in interest in legacy. More legacy players and events mean more people who want to buy into the real cards.
Vintage used to be much much more popular, it only became niche once the power 9 prices rose so much that the format was no longer accessible.
Legacy used to be the most popular format, but the surge in the price of duals is turning it more and more niche.
And people wont stop wanting dual lands or power 9 just because they can proxy them with a sharpie on a basic land at sanctioned events. They will still want the actual cards for bling value or to make their deck look better etc. The more paper legacy and paper vintage events there are, the more players will play those formats and the more the prices of legacy and vintage staples will rise. This is a good thing if you are a collector. Your collection will grow more valuable.
I'm 100% on board with allowing proxies for sanctioned events.
When we play casual, i'm ok with sharpie, but i'd rather not have to decipher a scribble in a tournament that mattered.
Years ago, i posted here that WOTC could easily institute a proxy system where each proxy would cost $1.Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
The proxy would be on a regular magic back, but would only have block letters AND have a date for the tournament on it.
The date would ensure you wouldn't be able to use it at the next event. This proxy policy would allow you to change your deck for any event for $75.
As you register your deck, you go to the "proxy" station and "order" your cards for $1 each.
Whatever the cost is for having someone do this could be deducted from the $1 per card.
WOTC could supply the printer, templates and magic backs and whatever percentage is left over from the $1 per card, that's their profit.
It's an ignored cash reserve that WOTC could tap, but this policy would "some percentage greater than zero" hurt vendors at the events.
I was a commercial artist (25years) in the printing field so this seems rather easy for me to implement.
i regularly print my proxies on foil cards that i've erased.
The same armchair legal arguments that say the reserved list can't be broken also say they can't allow proxies.
I agree with you that there would be a group that was upset with this.
However, isn't the reserved list policy just for PRINTING more reserved list cards?
Whatever WOTC allows to be used in a tournament is their right...
The real reason that Wizards would change their reserved list policy is because of Commander. Legacy and Vintage are irrelevant in paper from their perspective, so the question becomes whether or not Commander players would approve of playtest cards (proxies already have a definition as a replacement "card" given when a card is damaged enough in tournament play), and the answer might surprise you.
I think you are overvaluing the appeal of Eternal formats, if they truly were popular then Magic Online would show it. Duals would likely still go up in the hypothetical playtest card environment though, because they would be going to Commander players instead.
It was more an indictment of the legal reasoning: the reserve list exists to preserve card values and be a trading card game, so allowing players reprint their own cards allows for functional reprints which therefore tanks prices.
Or you could argue that the reserve list only functions if wizards enforces their copyrights and by allowing proxies they aren't therefore...
The faster Legacy and Vintage die, the better for WotC.
These formats don't generate any revenue so they couldn't care less.
In terms of Commander, I'm a bit surprised that people don't riot about stuff like Gaea's Cradle, but I guess the player base is too casual to care.
I would ask another question:
Do Legacy/Vintage events even need to be sanctioned to begin with?
Most players who play these formats don't give a shit and neither do WotC.
The only alternative for sanctioned events is to introduce a format without the reserved list.
One could argue to just give the formats completely to the community, but community managed formats tend to fracture and perish rather fast.
This is a pretty cool idea. A tournament organizer in the Northwest did something similar years ago for proxy Vintage events (unsanctioned, of course). Players would get 10 free proxies with their entry fee, but they could buy additional proxies for $1 each. This was a good system because it incentivized buying cards but allowed even people with no Vintage cards to compete if they wanted to. I don't recall anyone ever playing a fully proxied deck, but several people did buy proxies beyond the initial 10.
I agree that Commander is driving a lot of WOTC's decision-making, but aren't Commander players the ones buying the Mystery Booster "playtest" cards? If they're fine with those eyesores, then a proxied Gaea's Cradle or Gilded Drake should be OK.
I think your second point is a faulty comparison. Eternal formats can be massively popular in paper and not massively popular online. For example, I'm very involved in Legacy but don't play online. Some people in the Seattle scene do play online, but many (maybe even a majority) do not. There are numerous reasons for that, but the simplest is that the experiences are vastly different.
While the experience may be different, those who want to show that Legacy has relevance have no choice to embrace Magic Online because of the advantage of no reserved list applying along with far more reasonable prices, along with there being actual relevant support.
The smart Vintage players gave in to that reality, if the Legacy players want to be able to play relevant Legacy they had better do the same. (Really, all competitive formats face this reality, it will just take longer for Pioneer because it is not on Arena yet.)
I can't agree with this. Seattle has had no problems with a thriving paper Legacy scene for at least the past 10 years. Large series, such as Puget Sound Battleground, were successful and eager to repeat. That was true in other parts of the country, with events like the big Missouri tournaments (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...ament_feedback) and Eternal Weekend, and there were overseas events that were big, too. Things are at a standstill now because of the pandemic, but that's true in far more arenas and ways than paper Legacy. Paper Legacy has plenty of relevance, but obviously there aren't many parts of the world holding large, in-person events right now. I don't like your implication that those who prefer in-person experiences to virtual ones are not smart. Vintage has much larger price barriers than Legacy and fewer substitutes available (due to power), and that's always been the case, but in-person Vintage events are feasible where there is enough interest and effort.
begin pendantry
WotC allows judge-issued proxies in sanctioned events. (See the handling of [card]Kess, Dissident Mage[/card] at GP Seattle 2018) What most people call "proxies" WotC has decided are called "playtest cards."
end pendantry
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Meta-level pedantry
It's actually pedantry, not pendantry.
I'll show myself out...
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I would not be upset one bit. I think it would be a good thing. I own basically all of legacy, so in terms of me playing decks I want, it doesn't affect me. But if it helps someone else play that's a good thing.
A few other comments, though. I would greatly prefer if these proxies were not just sharpie on a land or magic back. Not sure what the best way to do proxies would be. What I do for proxies (I do this if for example I own 1 copy of a card, but want to play it in multiple commander decks or something) I make a photocopy of the card, print and cut it out on regular printer paper. Then put a random card + the photocopy in a sleeve. Then, you know what the card is, what it does, it has the normal art so you can identify it at a glance, but it's also just a poopy copy so you know it's not real and could never be mistaken as a real card. And personally I don't think the added paper in the sleeve is identifiable in the deck, but others may disagree.
I also don't know how much allowing proxies would actually do to get people into the format. I don't think proxy events pull in as many extra people as some seem to think.
I also don't think wizards would ever actually allow proxies.
Eternal extravaganza used to allow I think it was up to 15 proxies for vintage. And that did allow me to play in the vintage event since I was already going for the legacy event. So honestly, my gut feeling is that allowing proxies would help more legacy players play vintage than it would make, say, modern players want to play legacy.
People just don't like proxies, knowing that they'll never be able to play the "real thing". Reprinting reserved list would do more than allowing proxies would (although that point is probably obvious).
I wonder if they could like, edit the reserved list again. Not by taking cards off, but by revising it by changing the statement "these will never be reprinted", to something like, "we will never print more than x amount of copies of these cards per year or per x amount of years."
I know many people think the legal argument is bogus anyway, but perhaps by keeping the list "intact" they could create some kind of legal loophole. I would be down for that.
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Not really an intellectual argument, just one vote- I would *love* unlimited (reasonable quality) proxies because removing the primary barrier of entry yields more opponents. I still play this game primarily to meet new people and socialize. I look forward to the day where my $5300 delver deck falls to $400 and the difference is made up with an expanded player base.
Why would WOTC ever allow proxies in their events? Why would they ever support unsanctioned events?
That said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d004BlPRVN4
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
Our LGS' Legacy events have always allowed proxies. I hate it. While some proxies are of quality that they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, most are scrawled in marker, or printed poorly and cut out unevenly. A piece of printer paper shoved into a sleeve makes them a different thickness. Trying to assess a complicated battlefield with many permanents on it becomes much harder when you have to constantly remind yourself "OK, that's a Mox Diamond" because the proxy is so low quality that it isn't apparent on first glance.
I am perfectly OK with them as playtest cards for a casual context when there are no stakes. Our team does this before big events. However, if I went to a 'real' legacy tournament where I paid money to enter and prizes are on the line, I'd be pretty pissed to see proxies across the table from me.
Legacy - all flavors of Delver, UB Shadow, Eldrazi Stompy, UBx Reanimator, some UBx midrange piles
Modern - Prowess, Traverse Shadow
Pioneer - UW Aggro
This sums up my thoughts and feelings. How do I 'like' a post? I don't use snapbook regularly and it looks like they changed the interface again...
Is there a cutoff for a smaller event/lower prize support that you would be ok playing against proxies? I completely see your point about the card recognition, I deal with that in playtesting/kitchen table stuff and stuff gets missed all the time because of that. Just curious if you'd feel the same at like a small weekly with $10 in prizes to T8 vs something more significant like a $K event or something.
I voted for allowing and think i'm probably still on board allowing it after hearing the above case, at least in the smaller events, just to grow the player base. Outside of Magic Fest, I've only seen a max of 8 players in an event within several hours of me. So maybe each of our local scenes is influencing our votes as well. I guess to counter my own post, there are plenty of non-tier but still competitive decks that can be made on a budget relative to modern so there are alternatives. Maybe its just a stigma people have and they don't even try to get over it.
Unsanctioned events are by definition unsupported.
That said and also to reiterate:
Does anyone in the legacy community even care about events being sanctioned or not?
Almost all events are run by local stores or something like Bazaar of Moxen or SCG.
In the long term traders could even benefit from running proxy events to generate interest in the format which boosts sales of other relevant cards.
Considering that modern is already starting to price out some people as well as receiving less support, people might be interested to also play legacy.
With the power level of more recent cards, the overlap of the pool of relevant cards is not so small anymore.
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