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Thread: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

  1. #41

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    It think that this deck could really profit from the new card Krark, the Thumbless.

    He plays very well together with Archive Trap, Surgical Extraction, Daze, cantrips and Brain Freeze.
    Here's my list proposal:

    UBr Mill

    4 x Force of Will
    4 x Daze

    4 x Brainstorm
    4 x Ponder
    4 x Visions of Beyond

    4 x Archive Trap
    3 x Brain Freeze
    4 x Hedron Crab
    4 x Ruin Crab
    3 x Krark, the Thumbless

    3 x Surgical Extraction

    3 x Field of Ruin
    4 x Polluted Delta
    3 x Flooded Strand
    2 x Scalding Tarn
    3 x Snow-Covered Island
    2 x Underground Sea
    2 x Volcanic Island

    SB:
    4 x Cabal Therapy
    4 x Leyline of the Void
    4 x Gut Shot
    ...

  2. #42

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum View Post
    It think that this deck could really profit from the new card Krark, the Thumbless.

    He plays very well together with Archive Trap, Surgical Extraction, Daze, cantrips and Brain Freeze.
    Here's my list proposal:

    UBr Mill

    4 x Force of Will
    4 x Daze

    4 x Brainstorm
    4 x Ponder
    4 x Visions of Beyond

    4 x Archive Trap
    3 x Brain Freeze
    4 x Hedron Crab
    4 x Ruin Crab
    3 x Krark, the Thumbless

    3 x Surgical Extraction

    3 x Field of Ruin
    4 x Polluted Delta
    3 x Flooded Strand
    2 x Scalding Tarn
    3 x Snow-Covered Island
    2 x Underground Sea
    2 x Volcanic Island

    SB:
    4 x Cabal Therapy
    4 x Leyline of the Void
    4 x Gut Shot
    ...
    Super excited for this. Been toying with krark in this too. He doesn't work too well with fow though. I'd consider moving it to the SB for when it's rly needed then putting in thoughtseize or flusterstorm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  3. #43
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Where he really shines is building storm and doubling Archive Trap (pretty much guaranteed to eventually double any 0cc spell). You can build a lot of storm for free depending on how many times Archive Trap returns to your hand. I would go up to 4x Brain Freeze for that synergy.

    Archive Trap+Brain Freeze:
    For 1U, your WORST CASE is spending 1 card to mill 29 cards (if both flips are suboptimal). That happens if Archive Trap is copied the first time and Brain Freeze is returned to hand. With any other flip outcomes, you mill even more cards for 2 mana (+3 for each time Archive Trap is returned and +6 if Brain Freeze isn't returned).

    Krark works well with Brain Freeze in general. You get the storm copies either way, and you have 50% chance to get Brain Freeze back to reuse.

    Where Krark is less good is with spells with alternate costs. With FoW, if you miss, you have to pitch a 2nd blue card to cast it again = game loss. With Daze, you have to return a 2nd Island if it whiffs = bad tempo. With Surgical or Gut Shot, you pay an extra 2 life each time, which could be dangerous for a deck that tanks a lot of damage to race. You can build storm that way, but you set yourself behind in the gamestate too far if you can't assemble lethal that turn. I would stay away from the pitch spells and just play more regular 0-1cc value spells.

    Thoughtseize (you don't lose life if the spell is returned). Keep FoW for the SB.

    SB cards like Submerge, Massacre, Ravenous Trap and Reverent Silence are truly free spells. No pitch cost. You can keep recasting them at no penalty to build storm, unlike FoW or Daze or Gut Shot.

    Don't forget you still need ways to turn on Archive Trap. Surgical doesn't do it. Field costs way too much mana to use in an Archive Trap + Brain Freeze storm turn.

  4. #44

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Do you think Court of Cunning has any role in this deck? Maybe in a monoblue build alongside Ensnaring Bridge?

    I would love to get a monoblue mill list going.

  5. #45
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    It's probably too Christmaslandy but that U1 instant that searches for a trap card with Krark out can result in mill 52 if you win the snare flip. (I think it's called trapmaker's snare or something like that.)

    If you play Krark and depend on him, I'd recommend playing some nonzero number of flusterstorm. They will also protect the crabs and help your combo matchups.
    -rob

  6. #46

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Do you think Court of Cunning has any role in this deck? Maybe in a monoblue build alongside Ensnaring Bridge?

    I would love to get a monoblue mill list going.
    I think Court is too cute. It does nothing on its own if you don't have Bridge, and those two cards doesn't speed up your gameplan.
    Then, either you'll have to be hellbent, so you have no way to counter any artifact hate or Oko coming in to nuke your bridge (losing monarch is a big deal as you have 0 way to get it back on your side).
    Or you have to deal with small creatures and so you need to be playing instant speed removals (black for instance, so no more mono blue strategy) and have them in hand.

    But I dig the idea of hiding behind Bridge.
    I've played a handful of games with the successful build versus RUG Delver, and god, I don't know how those guys made it to the top several times. The DTB literaly crushed me all the time, cause creatures are far better at lowering your life total than your spells (counterable) are at thining the opponent's deck. Not to mention how you fuel their Dreadhorde.
    So maybe a slower take on the mill archetype isn't that bad after all, like playing a 4-of Bridge, packing you usual countermagic package for any combo that doesn't smash your face with creatures, and why not fiting in some Mesmeric Orbs. Just a thought.

    Anyway, you'll need to splash for a color, black likely, for creature/planeswalker removals (Eliminate, Push), and have a heavy graveyard hate sideboard.

  7. #47
    Last edited by kinda; 11-18-2020 at 12:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  8. #48
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I don't know if it was mentioned on here but bruvac and the new mill 8 with kicker (if kicked) mills the entire deck.
    -rob

  9. #49

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    I don't know if it was mentioned on here but bruvac and the new mill 8 with kicker (if kicked) mills the entire deck.
    !
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  10. #50
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDissent View Post
    But I dig the idea of hiding behind Bridge.
    I've played a handful of games with the successful build versus RUG Delver, and god, I don't know how those guys made it to the top several times. The DTB literaly crushed me all the time, cause creatures are far better at lowering your life total than your spells (counterable) are at thining the opponent's deck. Not to mention how you fuel their Dreadhorde.
    So maybe a slower take on the mill archetype isn't that bad after all, like playing a 4-of Bridge, packing you usual countermagic package for any combo that doesn't smash your face with creatures, and why not fiting in some Mesmeric Orbs. Just a thought.

    Anyway, you'll need to splash for a color, black likely, for creature/planeswalker removals (Eliminate, Push), and have a heavy graveyard hate sideboard.
    Like I said in a few posts already.
    Banking your ass on turbo mill isn't going to work (unless they print new cards) especially vs a meta that has such a wide spectrum. You'll just make good MUs even better and bad ones even worse.
    Netdecking is fine but alas you know sometimes results are biased (luck, perfect list for a given meta...)

    Trading speed for efficiency is, imho, definitely the way to go.
    Mathematically speaking the average mill output is (5 cards +1 draw) a turn = 6 cards/turn. Hence, 10 turns for an entire library.
    Nothing to compare with a classic tempo race (3 PV a turn out of 20 PV).

    It only means that vs Tempo, you are the control deck. Period. So playing turbo mill is sketchy (at best).
    Dreadbore + removal (just to focus on RUG) is ice on the cake (for them) vs a 8 crabs config. Basically speaking, if you have no way to kill the guy and you lose the stack fight, it's over.

    Bridge isn't usually optimal in reactive decks. Keeping cards in hand for FOW and playing VoB in the same deck impede even further this idea, imho.


    Even if the spot removal critical mass has to be tweaked, a range between 7-9 cards dedicated to stop oppo's assaults is a good way to start improving your aggro MUs.

    The rest will be based on your personal experience with the deck and the way you like playing it.
    Ofc, in such build, there is no room for Surgical MD...

    Why on earth am I reading here and there "turbo/combo mill" decklist with a 8 crabs config ? Crabs mean land drops. Land drops mean turns. Turns mean "playing like a fair deck at a reasonable pace where you trade blows with your oppo" ? Do I miss a thing somewhere in between ?

    Ralf

  11. #51

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Hi all mill-supporters, hope you all are well in these covid-times
    For those of you that have not noticed: we have got some new competitors!

    Regards

  12. #52
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by t000 View Post
    Hi all mill-supporters, hope you all are well in these covid-times
    For those of you that have not noticed: we have got some new competitors!

    Was mill losing much to "target"? Seemed to me the bigger problem was mill would run out of gas (or run out of interaction to not die to the opponent). Adding more slow 3-mana spells doesn't seem to help that.

    Tasha's Hideous Laughter seems great against certain decks: Lands, D&T, Elves, Depths, Maverick, Pox, UWR Ragavan.
    Unfortunately there are a lot of high CMC cards in the format: Force of Will, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Omniscience, Hogaak, Muxus, Terminus. It does not seem good against BR Reanimator, OmniTell, SneakShow, Hogaak, Goblins, or Bant Miracles. Having a high-variance 3 cmc spell hit by Force or Daze is also bad tempo (UR Delver). Seems like a SB card. Could be good in some matches, helping when they play around Archive Traps postboard, but seems bad in others.

    Maybe you could build a mono U Sanity Grinding deck with blue devotion.


    //Mana: 20
    4 Sea Gate Restoration
    4 Chrome Mox
    12 Island

    //Spells: 31
    4 Force of Will
    4 Archive Trap
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Visions of Beyond
    4 Fractured Sanity
    4 Sanity Grinding
    3 Devastation Tide
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Lullmage's Domination

    //Creatures: 5
    4 Chancellor of the Spires
    1 Demilich

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Energy Field

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Tempest Djinn
    3 Back to Basics
    2 Misdirection
    1 Devastation Tide
    1 The Magic Mirror


    Even if you force Sanity Grinding with something like that, the average devotion of the deck is just around 1.6. Sanity Grinding will only flip 15ish cards on average (maybe a bit more if you stack UUUs on top with Brainstorm). At only 15 cards, you might as well forget Sanity Grinding and just play Archive Trap + Fractured Sanity in a normal deck.

  13. #53

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Does energy field work here? We will have cards in the graveyard right?

    Also, endurance is probably a huge hill to climb for a mill deck. Maybe running some sort of exile effect mainboard is what would be needed.

  14. #54
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FistaCuffSmith View Post
    Does energy field work here? We will have cards in the graveyard right?

    Also, endurance is probably a huge hill to climb for a mill deck. Maybe running some sort of exile effect mainboard is what would be needed.
    The above deck was just posted as a proof-of-concept that Sanity Grinding = bad.

    Even if you go out of your way to force it, it doesn't even mill that much compared to Archive Trap and Fractured Sanity (or 2cmc cards that let you make more Archive Traps). So don't bother forcing it.

    Energy Field does work there. Just for a few turns, not the whole game. Energy Field can be used to stall a few turns while you play lands and refill your hand to 8 cards (forced to cast something), or until you Miracle Devastation Tide (returning Energy Field). Why play a stall card? The underlying problem is the deck has to be mono-blue playing a lot of UU symbols to make Sanity Grinding work. But UU cards are not good at keeping you alive vs faster decks. How do you stay alive long enough to mill them? Terminus is the wrong color. Devastation Tide cheats around this a bit with 3UU cost but Miracle 1U. Energy Field is another way to stall for a few turns while you build up more resources to mill them out. It is not a permanent lock, but it beats conceding.

    Still, even in a UUU-heavy deck like that, Sanity Grinding does not mill enough cards.
    Therefore do not play Sanity Grinding.
    Therefore do not force UU costs in mill.
    Therefore, you can play a 2nd color to stay alive (Terminus, Dead of Winter, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath) instead of relying on bad blue spells like Devastation Tide or Energy Field.

  15. #55

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Sanity Grinding sucks major dick.
    Back in the day I tried to build a T2 deck with cascade into Grinding and all the Shadowmoor 5 mana hybrid demigods.
    Even that couldn't mill consistently.

    No idea why why anyone would play Fractured Sanity.
    14 for 3 mana is pretty bad and so is the cycle mode.
    At 3 mana the spell should win the game.

    Tasha's Hideous Laughter can be nice meta call but should probably be a sideboard card.
    Note that it exiles cards which is good but doesn't "mill" cards so you don't get synergy with Bruvac (lol) or Fraying Sanity.

    As mentioned by others, the existence of Endurance makes this deck basically pointless.
    It also feeds Murktide Regents and basically every other playable deck.
    To make it work you'd need a Leyline, RIP or Planar Void.
    At that point you could also invest into 4+1 mana and win the game instantly instead of milling.

  16. #56
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I think I tried that Standard deck too, briefly. 4x Plumeveil, 4x Ghastlord of Fugue, 4x Cryptic Command, 4x Overbeing of Myth. It was terrible. Needed more Cruel Ultimatum and less bad cards.

    Fractured Sanity is not good. It's just funny that on average it mills about as much or more as Sanity Grinding could in any remotely-playable shell, so there's no reason to touch Sanity Grinding.

    All those 3-mana spells are competing with unconditional 2-mana mill 10s (Glimpse the Unthinkable) and conditional 2-mana mill 13s (Trapmaker's Snare, Mission Briefing, Brain Freeze). Why lose harder to Daze+Wasteland when you can win with cheaper spells?

    As mentioned by others, the existence of Endurance makes this deck basically pointless.
    It also feeds Murktide Regents and basically every other playable deck.
    To make it work you'd need a Leyline, RIP or Planar Void.
    At that point you could also invest into 4+1 mana and win the game instantly instead of milling.
    Even before Endurance this was an issue with a number of decks (Uro, Loam, Gurmag, Hogaak, Reanimator, Forager, Echo, Welder-Painter, Bomberman...). Nonlethal mill powers up more decks than it hurts. Some decks run Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and completely ignore mill.

    A while back I made another thread called "Zero Crab - The old Mill" with a list of UW RipHelm. It concluded the same thing you did. To avoid helping opponents, you want maindeck Leylines/RiP. At that point, every mill spell is worse than "4+1: Win the game", so just play Helm. The build is not quite tier 1 but performs well and is miles better than anything Crab mill tries to do.

  17. #57

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Chancellor of the Spires, have playtested him? As a "dead card" later on he can be pithced to Fow or Chrome Mox (if we upped to ramp up our speed).
    Regards

  18. #58
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by t000 View Post
    Chancellor of the Spires, have playtested him? As a "dead card" later on he can be pithced to Fow or Chrome Mox (if we upped to ramp up our speed).
    0-mana: "-1 card, mill 7". Not good.
    Good on mana but bad on cards. You can't win trading 1 card for only mill 7. The other ones have more impact. I only considered him for Sanity Grinding.dec because of the UUU cost.

    Edit: This is the best mill deck I could come up with in the last year, playtesting with much better results than the others. (+/- a few slots)


    //Lands: 19
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Tundra
    5 Island
    3 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

    //Enchantments: 13
    2 Land Tax
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Court of Cunning

    //Artifacts: 4
    3 Scroll Rack
    1 Helm of Obedience

    //Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Terminus

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 Web of Inertia
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Mystical Dispute
    1 Flusterstorm
    3 Meddling Mage


    It only needs 2 "mill" slots instead of 20. That leaves more room for disruption and protection.

  19. #59

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    0-mana: "-1 card, mill 7". Not good.
    Good on mana but bad on cards. You can't win trading 1 card for only mill 7. The other ones have more impact. I only considered him for Sanity Grinding.dec because of the UUU cost.

    Edit: This is the best mill deck I could come up with in the last year, playtesting with much better results than the others. (+/- a few slots)

    [cards]
    //Lands: 19
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Tundra
    5 Island
    3 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

    //Enchantments: 13
    2 Land Tax
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Court of Cunning

    //Artifacts: 4
    3 Scroll Rack
    1 Helm of Obedience

    //Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares....
    Thats a good input, Chancellor of the Spires in a Sanity Grinding version would be interesting to test. Furthermore, the list you are referring to here is a version of "UW Helm Combo". Yes its mills, but its more towards a combo deck. I see that youve mentioned it on earlier posts also. It diverts form the original thoughts of this thread.
    Regards

  20. #60
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I posted it because it builds off Zoid's thoughts.

    To beat Endurance you want Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. You also need GY hate to beat decks like Reanimator, Hogaak, SneakShow, OmniTell, Dredge, MadVine, Lands, Bant. Otherwise your mill helps them win.

    Once you run Leyline or RiP, you have a choice between running 20+ mill spells (8 Crab, Archive Trap, Glimpse, etc.) or running Helm of Obedience. Why try to resolve multiple Archive Traps & Crabs when you only need to resolve 1 Helm? The less resources it takes to remove opponent's library, the easier it is to win.

    If you pick Leyline of the Void -> play Curse Stompy (Reeplcheep's deck)

    If you pick Rest in Peace -> play UW RipHelm

    Unfortunately mill is a worse version of both and can't win as many games, because it spends more resources trying to do the same thing as 1 Helm. When you mill only 10-20 cards, you risk helping the opponent more than hurting them. Then you have to find a way to mill the next 20-30 cards vs a powered-up opponent, before dying. It's hard.

    If you still want to make mill for flavor and fun reasons, the best mill effects are
    Archive Trap
    Brain Freeze
    Hedron Crab
    Ruin Crab

    Those can mill 12+ cards for 0-2 mana. Best efficiency.

    Glimpse the Unthinkable is the next best: unconditional 10 cards for 2 mana.

    Mission Briefing, Trapmaker's Snare, Ashiok, Dream Render, Mind Funeral, Fractured Sanity are the next tier down.

    Sanity Grinding and Chancellor of the Spires are bad. Try all the others first.

    When I playtested mill, most wins came from big Archive Trap + Brain Freeze turns.

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