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Thread: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

  1. #241

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Thanks for the great comments.

    Yes I agree that R1G1 imprinting dark ritual hurt quite a bit and he might have been able to resolve cruel reality.

    Especially on the play I would keep Trinisphere. I usually do board out karn though as the most expensive wincon. I will usually trim a bit on dark ritual since they will force the first thing anyways.

    I would usually +1 helm +1 Bridge +4 PE +vault -4 karn -1 Splendor -2 dark ritual

    I Agree he could have played more patiently. Karn is just so slow, when you are cluttered with 5 drops karn is very bad.

    Liliana the last hope is definitely a consideration. With the success of Hagra’s mauling I could also play Easy Prey or death pulse as 1 for 1 removal that has the upside of smoothing.

  2. #242
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Interesting. How do you find boarding out Karn performs vs Delver? How is Karn vs them in Game 1?

    How does Helm perform vs Delver postboard? What happens when you draw 2 Helms?

    Karn is slow yes, and they tax your mana. I just wonder if Helm is even slower and more conditional. It's less about if Karn is good vs Delver than if Helms 2 & 3 are worse. Helm is usually a textless card. Even when you have Leyline, the 2nd Helm is just a 4-mana shield vs counterspells. Blue decks will punish you for having textless cards.

    If you're facing beatdown from a Delver/DRC and hit 4 mana, you can cast Karn and -2 to get Bridge. Delver/DRC/Bolt will then kill Karn, but Karn just gained you 3 life and then next turn you cast Bridge to stabilize. That's a lot better at stabilizing than Helm for the same mana cost.

    If you're in a position where Helm could win, Karn over Helm slows you down 1 turn but also absorbs damage. Cast Karn and -2 to get Helm. Either they kill Karn (saving you 3 damage) or you still have Karn next turn (e.g. to get mana or Bridge), but either way you have Helm. It's a bit slower for the Helm combo kill, but it also gives you the option to get Bridge if you're facing that much pressure.

    If you're not facing immediate pressure but don't have Leyline out (not a priority to mulligan into vs Delver), Karn lets you find other win conditions: Coating or Lattice. Helm would just be a dead card here.

    To me it looks like having Helm over Karn is only faster in magical Christmasland where you have everything set up and just need to win 1 turn sooner, but in the other scenarios Karn does more than Helm would. Gambling for the perfect combo setup makes sense vs nonblue decks. But vs blue decks (in general, piloting any deck) I think you have to play expecting disruption and try to maximize the different lines you can take instead of playing Roulette magic of slamming the thing and hoping they don't have the answer. Against a deck with 6x Force 4x Daze and other possible free cards too, they probably have the answer.

    Another option could be to board out both Karn and extra Helms (cut down to 1) for 3-mana black creatures, Vault, and Bridge. It's going a bit light on wincons, but the creatures make up for that.

  3. #243

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    The reason for cutting karns is that they are secretly the most expensive wincon, and is much worse if behind on board. If they force a karn target and then kill him they just traded 2 cards for 7-10 mana instead of 4 mana. Karn is a more flexible card which is why it is md. But against delver specifically spending 4 mana to get the perfect card is silly if they will just fon it always. Helm makes karn much better than otherwise but still not great. (see all the moon prison decks have cut him since they can’t keep the board control.

    Helm into curse demands 2 answers whereas karn into helm only demands one and the curse in hand will likely be too slow. I think I am justified in disliking karn from a tempo POV, but I could bring in additional creatures instead of the helms. I like having an instant win button to ignore grindy sb cards like uro/library/Klothys or just getting bolted out.

    Alternatively I could just accept this is the best the deck will be vs delver (I have beaten a decent amount of the slower versions in challenges) and play a bunch of sagas to dunk blue control.

  4. #244
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The reason for cutting karns is that they are secretly the most expensive wincon, and is much worse if behind on board. If they force a karn target and then kill him they just traded 2 cards for 7-10 mana instead of 4 mana. Karn is a more flexible card which is why it is md. But against delver specifically spending 4 mana to get the perfect card is silly if they will just fon it always. Helm makes karn much better than otherwise but still not great. (see all the moon prison decks have cut him since they can’t keep the board control.
    Yeah, that makes sense. It's basically Mastermind's Acquisition + gain 3 life (if they don't kill Karn immediately you -2 again for a 2nd card). It's an expensive line, but less conditional than Helm. I'm not saying Karn is great. Helm just seems worse. Moon has neither postboard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Helm into curse demands 2 answers whereas karn into helm only demands one and the curse in hand will likely be too slow. I think I am justified in disliking karn from a tempo POV, but I could bring in additional creatures instead of the helms. I like having an instant win button to ignore grindy sb cards like uro/library/Klothys or just getting bolted out.
    Helm into Curse demands 1 answer the 60%+ of the time you just have Helm and no T0 Leyline.

    If you cast Leyline into Helm into Curse, that demands two answers but is as slow as Karn into Karn-target into Curse (without the benefit of +3 life).

    Helm doesn't demand an answer on its own. Vs Delver it's textless and requires Leyline to unlock it. Most of the time you are not prioritizing mulligan to Leyline vs Delver, and a topdecked Leyline is usually better imprinted on Mox than cast unless you also draw Helm, so getting Leyline out opposes the play patterns you would normally take against Delver (prioritize hand with T1 resistor over T0 Leyline, develop black mana, keep as much business as possible). If you imprint another black card over Leyline, you have 1 fewer threat for them to answer. If you're forced to use Mauling as a land to curve out Leyline, you have 1 less interaction for the Delver killing you. Even if you have T0 Leyline, you got tempo but still have -1 hand size. Either way, there's 1 fewer thing they had to answer. It's still a 2-card combo that requires 1 answer for the 2 cards. They can also embarass you on tempo with Petty Theft/FoV on Leyline, making the mana on Helm a waste.

    Blue tempo decks do best against decks with dead cards and A+B combos, because instead of having to answer everything they only have to answer certain things. The worst thing for the FoW player to see 30x Tarmogoyf because there are no cracks for them to attack. The power level is uniform and they can't possibly answer everything. The best thing for the FoW player is a deck that has dead draws, Hymns itself, and needs certain cards to unlock other cards, because it makes it easier for their disruption to attack the cracks and tear things apart. From what I saw in the video, some of it was bad luck, but decisions also played into having fewer relevant cards to cast and that meant the blue deck had to answer much fewer things, which is exactly where the blue deck wants to be.

    Sure, there is the possibility you had T0 Leyline and they don't have answers for both Helm and Curse and you win. But that seems Christmaslandy. What about the times you have Helms but no Leyline? Or have to lose tempo to cast Leyline to enable Helm? Or had 1 less other thing for them to answer because you had that Leyline, so they end up having answers for both Helm and Curse?

    Maybe the line here is just to board out the entire Helm combo and board in all the creatures.
    +4 Plague Engineer, +3 Opposition Agent, +1 Bridge, +1 Vault, +1 Spyglass, -4 Karn, -4 Leyline, -2 Helm

    This way you're replacing expensive threats with cheaper threats, and each card demands an answer instead of them needing 1 answer after 2 plays. Overloading their answers is what beats Delver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Alternatively I could just accept this is the best the deck will be vs delver (I have beaten a decent amount of the slower versions in challenges) and play a bunch of sagas to dunk blue control.
    To some extent, yeah. The bigger issue is Monkey Delver is broken, so maybe you just play to beat all the other decks that try to beat it (and beat the combo decks trying to beat Bant).

  5. #245

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah, that makes sense. It's basically Mastermind's Acquisition + gain 3 life (if they don't kill Karn immediately you -2 again for a 2nd card). It's an expensive line, but less conditional than Helm. I'm not saying Karn is great. Helm just seems worse. Moon has neither postboard.



    Helm into Curse demands 1 answer the 60%+ of the time you just have Helm and no T0 Leyline.

    If you cast Leyline into Helm into Curse, that demands two answers but is as slow as Karn into Karn-target into Curse (without the benefit of +3 life).

    Helm doesn't demand an answer on its own. Vs Delver it's textless and requires Leyline to unlock it. Most of the time you are not prioritizing mulligan to Leyline vs Delver, and a topdecked Leyline is usually better imprinted on Mox than cast unless you also draw Helm, so getting Leyline out opposes the play patterns you would normally take against Delver (prioritize hand with T1 resistor over T0 Leyline, develop black mana, keep as much business as possible). If you imprint another black card over Leyline, you have 1 fewer threat for them to answer. If you're forced to use Mauling as a land to curve out Leyline, you have 1 less interaction for the Delver killing you. Even if you have T0 Leyline, you got tempo but still have -1 hand size. Either way, there's 1 fewer thing they had to answer. It's still a 2-card combo that requires 1 answer for the 2 cards. They can also embarass you on tempo with Petty Theft/FoV on Leyline, making the mana on Helm a waste.

    Blue tempo decks do best against decks with dead cards and A+B combos, because instead of having to answer everything they only have to answer certain things. The worst thing for the FoW player to see 30x Tarmogoyf because there are no cracks for them to attack. The power level is uniform and they can't possibly answer everything. The best thing for the FoW player is a deck that has dead draws, Hymns itself, and needs certain cards to unlock other cards, because it makes it easier for their disruption to attack the cracks and tear things apart. From what I saw in the video, some of it was bad luck, but decisions also played into having fewer relevant cards to cast and that meant the blue deck had to answer much fewer things, which is exactly where the blue deck wants to be.

    Sure, there is the possibility you had T0 Leyline and they don't have answers for both Helm and Curse and you win. But that seems Christmaslandy. What about the times you have Helms but no Leyline? Or have to lose tempo to cast Leyline to enable Helm? Or had 1 less other thing for them to answer because you had that Leyline, so they end up having answers for both Helm and Curse?

    Maybe the line here is just to board out the entire Helm combo and board in all the creatures.
    +4 Plague Engineer, +3 Opposition Agent, +1 Bridge, +1 Vault, +1 Spyglass, -4 Karn, -4 Leyline, -2 Helm

    This way you're replacing expensive threats with cheaper threats, and each card demands an answer instead of them needing 1 answer after 2 plays. Overloading their answers is what beats Delver.



    To some extent, yeah. The bigger issue is Monkey Delver is broken, so maybe you just play to beat all the other decks that try to beat it (and beat the combo decks trying to beat Bant).
    Hi guys, I enjoy a lot playing this deck. What about ratchet bomb in the sideboard to deal with monkey delver era?

  6. #246

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    The “MBC” approach vs delver could be the best. In the oko era I felt that was not an option since they would all have sideboard grind cards like library/Klothys/uro that would beat you if you tried to grind too much. But perhaps I should reevaluate as expressive iteration is not nearly as scary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pelpopayo View Post
    Hi guys, I enjoy a lot playing this deck. What about ratchet bomb in the sideboard to deal with monkey delver era?
    Glad to hear it! Ratchet bomb or walking ballista is definitely a consideration. You only have so many slots for a karn target against creature decks however. In what situations do you think it is better than ensnaring bridge, sideboard helm, or sorcerous spyglass? Those are the targets it is competing for slots with.

  7. #247

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The “MBC” approach vs could be the best. In the oko /)I felt that was not an option since they would all have sideboard grind cards like library/Klothys/uro that would beat you if you tried to grind too much. But perhaps I should reevaluate as expressive iteration is not nearly as scary.




    Glad to hear it! Ratchet bomb or walking ballista is definitely a consideration. You only have so many slots for a karn target against creature decks however. In what situations do you think it is better than ensnaring bridge, sideboard helm, or sorcerous spyglass? Those are the targets it is competing for slots with.
    Hi Reeplcheep!
    I consider these slots untouchable (at least for the moment). As I run 2 off Plague Reaver in the sideboard like you do,
    maybe one could be enough...don't you think?

  8. #248

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I am just not sure how many situations you resolve karn, then a 2 drop, then wait a turn to tick up vs multiple delver 1 drops and you aren’t just dead.

  9. #249

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I am just not sure how many situations you resolve karn, then a 2 drop, then wait a turn to tick up vs multiple delver 1 drops and you aren’t just dead.
    I always take Karn out from the main against Rug delver. I agree with your previous comments. I don't like Karn for this matchup. So I would bring into bridge + vault + helm + ratchet bomb. I'll test it.

  10. #250

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelpopayo View Post
    I always take Karn out from the main against Rug delver. I agree with your previous comments. I don't like Karn for this matchup. So I would bring into bridge + vault + helm + ratchet bomb. I'll test it.
    Ohh, you want it as a card to bring in rather than a karn target. That is totally reasonable if you think it is better than the black boardwipes. Damnation and toxic deluge are quite awkward indeed in a tomb deck.

    Meekstone might be another option since it is probably decent in the deck g2 & g3 but 1 mana makes it possibly worth searching for G1.

  11. #251
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The “MBC” approach vs delver could be the best. In the oko era I felt that was not an option since they would all have sideboard grind cards like library/Klothys/uro that would beat you if you tried to grind too much. But perhaps I should reevaluate as expressive iteration is not nearly as scary.
    I think it's worth trying out if you're already struggling vs Delver no matter which configuration you submit.

    The Oko meta was so different. Oko invalidated creatures and rewarded enchantment-based prison or instant kill combos, so Curse or Helm would be much more reliable wincons than creatures vs RUG Oko. Uro/Klothys lifegain further invalidated small attacks. But Delver isn't playing that way anymore. Some RUG builds are splashing green for SB Klothys and Sylvan, but they're still primarily on the 1-drop beatdown plan. Plague Engineer on Humans can 3-for-1 them and Opposition Agent can mess up their mana, so you can get value disrupting them with fair MBC threats. There's also a good chance they board out some creature removal after game 1, whereas in the Oko meta they would have maindeck Oko and Uro either way.

    Did you play this weekend?

    Edit: Meekstone seems awkward. It gives them at least 1 attack. Marit Lage ignores it unless you can gain life. Ragavan can keep attacking through it, DRC can shrink (remove card from graveyard) to untap, Constructs can either attack under it or just grow really big and then hit once.

  12. #252

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Summarizing the recent changes to the deck. I hadn’t played much until Sunday due to (good) life stuff. I went 3-4 with a list splashing a few sagas and a Retrofitter foundry. The package felt excellent vs control; and the “crystal vein” mode of tap it, get a chrome mox was also good. I lost a few matches due to not having a good feel on the play patterns. The meta was quite heavy in fair non-blue so the helms overperformed. There was a ton of artifact hate though which felt rough.

    Summarizing the new cards for the deck:

    Urza’s Saga
    Very very good vs blue control. Still not sure if it is worth it on the whole; going too deep with vault of whispers got me blown out by sideboard cards.

    Sudden Edict
    Very nice flex removal vs marit lage and delver. I probably should figure out how to fit in a 4th.

    Hive of the Eye Tyrant
    Very low opportunity cost man-land. I will definitely try it out if saga doesn’t work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pelpopayo View Post
    Hi Reeplcheep!
    I consider these slots untouchable (at least for the moment). As I run 2 off Plague Reaver in the sideboard like you do,
    maybe one could be enough...don't you think?
    Well they spoiled an even better EE/ratchet bomb. Sphere of Annihilation will definitely be tested. Or less and not hitting your own artifacts is sweet; with coating and karn you can even get around the type restrictions. Exiling itself for karn plus exiling ouphe, marit lage, and uro is amazing.

    Apparently there will be a new curse in this set too...


    Edit: Force of Despair could be good in the sideboard if the madness decks become popular. It was good back in the Gyruda days.

  13. #253

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Summarizing the recent changes to the deck. I hadn’t played much until Sunday due to (good) life stuff. I went 3-4 with a list splashing a few sagas and a Retrofitter foundry. The package felt excellent vs control; and the “crystal vein” mode of tap it, get a chrome mox was also good. I lost a few matches due to not having a good feel on the play patterns. The meta was quite heavy in fair non-blue so the helms overperformed. There was a ton of artifact hate though which felt rough.

    Summarizing the new cards for the deck:

    Urza’s Saga
    Very very good vs blue control. Still not sure if it is worth it on the whole; going too deep with vault of whispers got me blown out by sideboard cards.

    Sudden Edict
    Very nice flex removal vs marit lage and delver. I probably should figure out how to fit in a 4th.

    Hive of the Eye Tyrant
    Very low opportunity cost man-land. I will definitely try it out if saga doesn’t work.




    Well they spoiled an even better EE/ratchet bomb. Sphere of Annihilation will definitely be tested. Or less and not hitting your own artifacts is sweet; with coating and karn you can even get around the type restrictions. Exiling itself for karn plus exiling ouphe, marit lage, and uro is amazing.

    Apparently there will be a new curse in this set too...


    Edit: Force of Despair could be good in the sideboard if the madness decks become popular. It was good back in the Gyruda days.
    Sphere of Annihilation seems pretty good for this deck. I'll test it.
    By the way, last week I played against some kind of Maverick depths deck.
    My opponent were about to beat me (he had in play a Collector Ouphe, Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elvish Reclaimer and I was pretty low of life) till I drew an Opposition Agent. He activated Knight of the Reliquary and I stole him a Karakas (there was only one wasteland left in his deck so I thought that it was the right choice due to Dark Depths).
    After 2-3 turns he forgot about my Opposition Agent, he activated Elvish Reclaimer and I considered to steal a plain just in case I could draw the Overwhelming Splendor. I drew it and I succesfully cast it.

    I had hardcast a Leyline of the Void previously. I drew finally a Helm of Obedience and I won the match. My advice: Don't throw in the towel specially if you play this deck.

  14. #254

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelpopayo View Post
    Sphere of Annihilation seems pretty good for this deck. I'll test it.
    By the way, last week I played against some kind of Maverick depths deck.
    My opponent were about to beat me (he had in play a Collector Ouphe, Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elvish Reclaimer and I was pretty low of life) till I drew an Opposition Agent. He activated Knight of the Reliquary and I stole him a Karakas (there was only one wasteland left in his deck so I thought that it was the right choice due to Dark Depths).
    After 2-3 turns he forgot about my Opposition Agent, he activated Elvish Reclaimer and I considered to steal a plain just in case I could draw the Overwhelming Splendor. I drew it and I succesfully cast it.

    I had hardcast a Leyline of the Void previously. I drew finally a Helm of Obedience and I won the match. My advice: Don't throw in the towel specially if you play this deck.
    Awesome!! Do you have a picture or screenshot? I have only hardcast splendor by usinn mycrosynth lattice before. (Once it was win more, but the other time I needed it out of my hand for bridge (deaths hold exiled))

  15. #255

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Awesome!! Do you have a picture or screenshot? I have only hardcast splendor by usinn mycrosynth lattice before. (Once it was win more, but the other time I needed it out of my hand for bridge (deaths hold exiled))
    Sorry Reeplcheep, I didn't think about make it. But next I'll get a screenshot if I get some excepcional situation similar to this one.
    By the way, do you have any video playing this deck? If so send me the link please.
    Thank you.

  16. #256

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelpopayo View Post
    Sorry Reeplcheep, I didn't think about make it. But next I'll get a screenshot if I get some excepcional situation similar to this one.
    By the way, do you have any video playing this deck? If so send me the link please.
    Thank you.
    Other than the ones in the primer I only have this:

  17. #257

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Many thanks for sharing this video. Helm of Obedience won the match!
    It shows the resilience of this deck .I think that your opponent was mainly focused on having a hand with a lot of disruption and counters.
    Actually he answered almost all your spells but it wasn't enough. I think he should have cast a couple of creatures at the same time to control the board.
    I mean, he seemed to spend a bunch of cantrips looking for wastelands, disruption and counters (and this is understandable if you play against a combo deck like this) but an early couple of creatures could have win us.

    By the way, plague reaver did a good job against Death's Shadow

  18. #258

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Some thoughts for the showcase:

    I assume the best deck to be ur delver with dragons rage Channeler and monkey and Murktide. Against that type of list leyline seems strong postboard.

    Fair blue is going to be everywhere and will all be playing uro or monkey. Karakas looks to be well positioned.

    I assume saga will be in most non-blue decks, and blue decks will be playing more meltdowns/force of Vigor to beat it rather than ouphe and bull rod. Thus helm might be a better postboard plan vs delver than curses.

    Combo will not be too present. Between sphere of annihilation and bridge there isn’t much of a reason to keep spyglass as a target


    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    7 Swamp
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    2 Karakas

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Chrome Mox

    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Hagra’s Mauling
    4 Sudden Edict

    4 Curse of misfortunes
    4 Karn the Great Creator
    2 Helm of Obedience
    1 Cruel Reality
    1 Curse of Deaths Hold
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom


    SB:
    4 Plague Engineer
    3 Plague Reaver
    2 Opposition Agent
    1 Sphere of annihilation
    1 Vault of Whispers
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 liquimetal coating
    1 Mycrosynth Lattice


    Plan vs delver is -7 curses -4 karn for engineer, reaver, vault, bridge, helm & sphere.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 07-15-2021 at 03:20 PM.

  19. #259
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Interesting. I like the SB plan to board out the slowest stuff and bring in the man plan. Probably your best fighting chance vs Delver, and those decks may board out removal not expecting it.

    You make a good case that Leyline still has value against their threats and that they may lack good answers for Helm.

    Karakas looks like good tech too.

    When boarding in the man plan, is Opposition Agent not good enough to board in vs all their fetches?

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