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Thread: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

  1. #41
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    I like this general idea - lowering the curve, changing the manabase to allow good monocolor spells. It seems more viable.

    To improve the mana (with fetches+duals+basics), you should probably either narrow down to 3 colors (XWr) or make blue a central color and run Xerox cantrips (UWbr). That's how other Legacy decks make functional manabases out of fetchlands + duals. Going 4 color without cantrips isn't really stable while Astrolabe and DRS are banned. Basically, I would think harder about which colors are most important to prioritize here to get good multicolor effects.

    Some of the best multicolor removal is in BG (Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Grist, the Hunger Tide). Unfortunately that would put you in GBWR (4 colors without blue), which is not really viable unless you base it on a lot of green mana fixing, so I see why you cut green.

    Without that BG removal, I think you definitely want Prismatic Ending in there. Even though it doesn't trigger general, it's just too strong and flexible.

    I guess your main color options are:
    BWR (Mardu - discard, premium removal, KComm)
    UWR (Jeskai - counters, premium removal, Meddling Mage)
    UWrb (4color - cantrip fixing, best multicolor cards of each)

    You could try what you have above (4 color without cantrips) but I think you'll run into mana issues.

  2. #42
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    The things I considered for the mana base :

    - the single colored cards are either black or white, so I run basic swamp and plains.
    - the deck wants to start with black and has 14 sources to get it or with white which has 13 sources.
    - from T2 on the Pillars can kick in which give an additional 4 cards for any color.
    - to cast anything blue : 3 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
    - to cast anything red : 2 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
    - I upped the count to 22 lands with 8 fetches and in goldfishing I've continually gone rather smoothly to 3-4 lands
    - you want to get to 4 lands to be able to cast two 2cc spells or a 1cc + 3cc

    You may be correct though that the deck might run into some mana problems at times but I'd like to try it first before making any changes.

    A nice leadoff land ( besides swamp ) is USea.
    Followed up by the plains you can cast Sculler or Mage.
    I try to keep any red sources till T3.

    I cut green because the deck no longer needs the ramp.
    Trophy, Decay and Grist are missed but Rip Apart, KCommand and Kaya replace them and seem just as effective if not more. IMHO.

    Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?

    If you find the time FTW and you can squeeze a few games in I would really love to hear your experienced input on how the deck plays vs 2Delver now.
    Thanks anyway for your time and input.

  3. #43
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Forgot to mention, karakas is nice with 2 generals :)

  4. #44
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    If you're looking to improve the UR 2Delver matchup, mana stability is the answer. Wasteland tempo decks rip apart greedy multicolor midrange decks like this. Even if you find the current mana "stable enough" with 4 colors and 0 cantrips, wouldn't "stable x2" be even better (with cantrips or fewer colors)?

    Have you tried testing it against other decks online or in paper?

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?
    Prismatic Ending only takes 1 mana to kill cards like Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Chalice of the Void, Dragon's Rage Channeler, Mother of Runes, Aether Vial, Retrofitter Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Delver of Secrets, Chrome Mox, etc. Rip Apart needs 2 mana, which slows you down and also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland/Daze/Thalia disrupting you off removal.

    Prismatic Ending can also kill big things Rip Apart cannot kill: Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (3 colors), Marit Lage (1 color), X/X Construct tokens (1 color), Karn, the Great Creator with 4+ counters (4 colors), Jace, the Mind Sculptor with 4+ counters (4 colors), Endurance (3 colors), Thought-Knot Seer (4 colors), Knight of the Reliquary (3 colors), Tarmogoyf (2 colors), 4/4 Hexdrinker (1 color), Kaldra Compleat's Germ token (1 color), etc.

    Rip Apart is a good card. Ending is just amazing in this format, especially in a 4 color deck.

  5. #45
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Alright, solid arguments.
    I was aware Rip Apart cost 1 more mana but the examples I was looking for ( which you provided ample ) were cards like uro, kaldra token etc which I didn't think off.

    With regards to live playing, I'm in the drydocks.
    The places I used to go to do not exist anymore and other daily life things have taken up most of my long time playing partner's time by now.
    I do not play online. Maybe I should give it a try but wouldn't I have to buy the digital cards first then (tix?) How much real money would it cost to digitally purchase this deck btw ? I have most of my decks in paper except for the duals which I proxy.

    So, let's say when it comes to mtg, I'm hungry but can't find much to eat 😉

  6. #46
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Taking your suggestion of "mana stability" to heart, I think I prefer to go to 3 colors and the easiest color to cut is blue.
    Meddling Mage can be replaced by Silverquill Silencer which seems a fair trade off, depending on what you're facing.
    Baleful Strix can be replaced by Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    With 9 fetches, 11 sorceries, 7 instants and 4 Kroxa's the GY should have enough fuel for Kroxa.

    The manabase consists now of 9 fetches ( 3 of each ) , 4 duals, 4 basics, 4 Pillars and Karakas.
    There are still 22 multicolor cards, 16 single colors.

    Prismatic ending can still get Uro, but 4+ cc cards are now out of the question.

    //CC1 - 16
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Prismatic Ending
    1 Duress

    //CC2 - 14
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Silverquill Silencer
    3 Rip Apart
    3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //CC3 - 8
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

    //Lands - 22
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Swamp
    2 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Plateau
    1 Plains
    1 Mountain
    1 Karakas

    //Sideboard WIP
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Solitude
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
    1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation

  7. #47
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    I tested something very similar today, along with your 4 color version.

    I went with this Mardu version

    //Creatures: 19
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric

    //Spells: 20
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Manamorphose
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Planeswalkers: 1
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

    //Lands: 20
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    2 Scrubland
    2 Plateau
    1 Karakas
    1 Mountain
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp


    Manamorphose is an experiment to both help fix colors and double-trigger general in a turn.

    Ragavan is also an experiment. He sort of functions as Mother of Runes (trades with their removal spell to protect your other guys), and if he connects then the Treasures help ramp and fix mana. T1 Ragavan allows potential T2 General.

    In the 4 color (BWUR) version I found Rip Apart clunky (too slow or couldn't answer enough), so I cut down copies and added Prismatic Endings. That build also often stumbled on mana and I couldn't cast my cards optimally. Sometimes it worked and did the thing, but other times it stumbled too much. The best parts were the discard suite and General. I think streamlining it with 3 colors and faster interaction spells will help. Silverquill is also MUCH worse than Meddling Mage, I don't know that it's worth playing.

    I also tried a different RUGW build with Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Prismatic Ending, Ice-Fang Coatl, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Teferi, Time Raveler, Expressive Iteration and Meddling Mage. These are all high power-level multicolor cards! This build beat UR 2Delver consistently, but it played out like a worse version of the Tier 1 Bant deck. I kept winning by playing typical Bant lines, did worst when I drew multiple red cards (General, Iteration), and often used cantrips to bury them. General could work in this build, but probably at only 2-3 copies as a late game engine, or at 4 copies in an 80-card Yorion build.
    Last edited by FTW; 11-05-2021 at 01:38 AM.

  8. #48
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    What a difference a card can make.
    The missing ingredient : Lotus Petal

    The strength of this deck is in its 2cc spells.
    Lotus petal gives you the ability to start right away with a Sculler or Mage, followed up with another one of these on T2.

    Lotus petal is card loss alright but Sculler makes up for it by removing a card from oppponent's hand as well and Strix lets you draw one.

    Another frowned upon card is doing very well so far : Worldly Tutor
    Card disadvantage again, but that disadvantage is nullified later on by all the free 4/4's it can provide you with.
    WT also fits perfectly in the mana curve.
    T1 Bird
    T2 Sculler/Strix/Mage + Tutor for General

    Kolaghan's Command is a 3-off imo because it allows you to play General with less fear of it being countered as you can get it right back from the GY.

    Extra bonus : Worldly Tutor can fetch Grist.

    Petals + Tutor also add to the GY, meaning the deck might be able to use Uro/Kroxa reliably.

    In short, I think this version is already a lot faster and as a result more competitive.

    //CC0
    4 Lotus Petal

    //CC1
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Birds of Paradise
    2 Worldly Tutor

    //CC2
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //CC3
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command
    2 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Lands
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Mana Confluence
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Savannah
    2 Bayou
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Misty Rainforest

  9. #49
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).

    Just a couple quick interjections:

    1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)

    2) Jegantha, the Wellspring

  10. #50
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Thank you Tobitzki, excellent observations.

    Ragavan : yeah ... I can't wait for him to be banned though as I hate the fact that he shows up in every Rx deck.
    Need to add a Taiga too then.

    I didn't know Incubation.
    It can't fetch you what you want like the Tutor but it can create a 4/4 and it's no card loss.
    Certainly worth trying.

    Jegantha : another good suggestion. For just 1 SB spot this seems worth it.

    Thx.

  11. #51

    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).

    Just a couple quick interjections:

    1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)

    2) Jegantha, the Wellspring
    Awesome suggestions.

    Jegantha is definitely an autoinclude.

    Incubation/Incongruity seems like a huge step up from worldly tutor. It triggers the general, isnt card disadvantage and doubles as removal spell in a pinch (nuking merit lages and murktides and such)

  12. #52
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Incubation, Jegantha and Ragavan all look good.

    I still think the fetch-dual manabase will be better if the deck reduces its colors (if playing against an opponent and not just goldfishing). 5 colors is risky. RW are essential for General, so it just depends on which tools you want with it. Some examples...

    RUWg (cutting black)

    //Companion: 1
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //1cc: 18
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Incubation // Incongruity
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //2cc: 13
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Expressive Iteration
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    //3cc: 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Lands: 22
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Arid Mesa
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Plateau
    2 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Savannah


    Multicolor count = 28 (+ companion)


    Or WRUB (cutting green)

    //Companion: 1
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //1cc: 15
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //2cc: 13
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Baleful Strix
    1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //3cc: 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Mana: 25
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    4 Arid Mesa
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Plateau
    2 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea


    Multicolor count = 24 (+ companion)

  13. #53
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Sculler and KCommand are among the best cards to pair with the General imo.
    Cutting green makes sense. You can replace anything you lose with similar effect cards in the chosen colors.
    I'd replace one Plow with Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

  14. #54
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Esper Sentinel seems a better fit for this deck than Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer for several reasons.

    Taxing opponent and card draw seem like more useful abilities for this midrange deck than fast weenie damage, treasure generation and

    spells off opponent's deck.

    Ragavan needs to attack and connect to trigger his abilities.
    Sentinel needs to do nothing.

    Removing Ragavan is easier. A simple 1cc removal spell or a power 1 blocker is enough to neutralize him.
    Removing Sentinel will either tax opponent or draw you a card.

    Ragavan's legendary status means potentially 3 dead cards.
    Multiple Sentinels in play are possible and their effects stack.

    Ragavan needs red mana on T1. Awkward since you need UW, UB or WB on T2. Pressure on the mana base.
    Sentinel blends right in with W cost. No pressure on the mana base.
    The deck basically plays as a 3-color deck with a red splash.

    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade joined the Meddling Mage squad for several reasons.

    She's an automatic counter to FoW, FoN, Daze.
    She also got better in the current meta because she can stop Evoke-effects like Endurance, Solitude and Grief
    She can stop alternative cost spells like Snuff Out, Delve spells like Murderous Cut or Affinity spells like Thoughtcast.
    She automatically counters all 0-cost spells like Mox Opal, Lotus petal, Ornithopter and Mishra's Bauble

    Cavern Harpy
    This card is just PERFECT for this deck.
    Not only can it do its usual bounce tricks but with a general in play that's a 4/4 golem on top of it every time you play it.
    Has extra value in this meta as a recurring counter/blocker vs Murktide.

    Current deck :

    // Companion
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //CC1 - 18
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Esper Sentinel
    4 Incubation // Incongruity
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //CC2 - 14
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Cavern Harpy
    1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    //CC3 - 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Lands - 21
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    2 Scrubland
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Plateau
    2 Marsh Flats
    1 Volcanic Island
    Last edited by Borg; 11-28-2021 at 12:03 PM.

  15. #55
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    a few thoughts:

    I think there are 2 different directions to take this deck: 1) creature-heavy aggressive or 2) midrange-control. Both demand vastly different play patterns and deck construction.

    On 2) -- midrange/control
    a useful reference point would be the 4C General builds run by Modern streamer aspiringspike a few months ago (i.e. 4C good stuff with Chalice and curving out with Omnath): (e.g. here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FRTEximCgc&t=2439s)

    Encouraging: AS pointed out the General's good position in Modern as he dodges most removal except for Drown, Helix, Prismari & K Command and W6 -- and well, those are ofc nowhere to be seen in Legacy.

    Less encouraging: this build and those leagues really illustrate the gulf of difference that remains between the formats (Chalice with no Sol Lands; value 4-drops in a Daze-less environment; no worries about T1-2 combo kills; etc etc). Ultimately, without strong T1 disruption we can't build a viable Legacy deck and hence, what we can learn here is limited (multiple Generals are ok; Manamorphose seems pretty decent; Exit and PEnding are must-includes.)

    The more direct reference is of course the Mentor plan: play reactive until your 3drop comes down and takes over. I'm not sold on the idea that Strix and Hatebears alone are enough here to play this game while avoiding to go blue xerox. Let's say we can afford not to play cantrips, the question then remainss: Can we reach a critical mass of blue cards to support Forces (e.g. 20)? And either way, I don't see us really competing with Mentor unfourntately: the way that the cantrip cartel that finds you early answers then powers out your finishing engine

    On 1) -- creature/aggro
    Here is also a Modern deck that's had some results with the General for our consideration: Domain Zoo. Apparently did well in a field full of MH2 tribal, but really seems underpowered against anything unfair in our format.

    In Legacy, the last successful Zoo showings were the Punishing Zoo list that won the 2019 Leaving a Legacy Open out of nowhere (W6 meta) and in early 2020 a wild Naya Reclaimer/Zenith list that won a medium-sized Hareruya event (Oko meta).

    So we're trying to build a creature deck without Vial or Zenith; Reclaimer also doesn't fit. I think Tax Aggro is the way to go then and I don't mind Esper Sentinel to double-down on the Mana Denial axis along with 4 Judge's Familiar (I still think Ragavan is by far the better card here, but no point arguing:, Monke likely be gone by next week).

    Some # of Thalias in the 75 would go well with that plan, as well as perhaps a Dovin, Hand of Control in the SB.

    Lavinia is another great fit, perhaps more maindeckable than Meddling Mage.

    More on the aggro version: run green over black. Strix doesn't fit our game plan and Tidehollow I don't think is a playable Legacy card in 2021. Instead I'd like to try Dorothea, Vengeful Victim (frontside pre-General, Disturb for after) and--only in the most aggressive of lists--Gallia of the Endless Dance.

    Domri, Anarch of Bolas and Nahiri, Harbinger are decent PWs to consider then. Also, the creature-heavy build is the only one that can support Incubation, but the stronger card here might just be Once Upon a Time.

    And finally: Do we want some form of mana acceleration?? More interesting options than Birds include: Wild Cantor, Simian Spirit Guide (both good with OuaT) or Chrome Mox. This question ofc also leads us back to the Monke...

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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    About cutting black for green :
    Personally, I think Sculler is a very effective card in this deck.
    Play it T2, see what's in opponent's hand that can deal with a T3 General and take it away.
    Knowing opponent's hand can also set up a very effective T3 MMage. ( like take away opponent's next card he'll likely play with Sculler on T2, then the turn after play Mage and name the next card your opponent is likely to play, taking opponent's tempo away )

    Cavern Harpy and KCommand both pull more than just their weight. KCommand being able to bring a General back from the GY is not to be underestimated and allows you to cast the general aggressively and maybe into a counter.

    Strix is the least necessary of the black spells but is still a very effective blocker, card draw and nice combo with Harpy.
    I do think I'd go down to 3 though and bring the 4th MMage back in.

    Dovin for the SB is a good suggestion. Thalia maybe. The deck has 13 instants/sorceries and taxing KCommand or Incubation seems unattractive.

    In a vacuum Once upon a Time is a better card than Incubation.
    But in this deck, when you consider the possible 4/4 for free and the additional option Incongruity offers vs something like a 20/20 Flyer, Incubation is the better choice imo.
    On T0 OuaT is the best choice but when you look past T0 : 2 mana for a look 5 down + 1 land/creature vs 1 mana for a 4/4 + a look 5 down + 1 creature.


    I used Wild Cantor before and found it disappointing. I found it a poor T1 play especially when you have no General to follow up with.
    I originally thought I wanted to rush the general in Play by T2.
    Now I feel that is not necessary. Better to set up the general in a normal curve.
    T1 Sentinel/Bird/Incubation T2 Sculler/Mage/Strix T3 General.
    SSG seems bad as it is useless on all 2cc spells.
    Domri, Anarch of Bolas : the deck has 22 creatures that can NOT use Domri's mana.

    Jegantha has been a fine addition, basically assuring you always have a multicolored spell up your sleeve even with an empty hand.

  17. #57
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    About cutting black for green :
    Personally, I think Sculler is a very effective card in this deck.
    Play it T2
    Sorry, I want to stop you right there. There's a substantial number of decks that have killed you by T2. Non-blue really needs meaningful T1 disruption, which is why I find JF an acceptable T1 play. THS has even fallen out of fringe decks like Deadguy Ale if I'm not mistaken, and it competes here for space with the stronger UW 2drops (T1 Thoughtseize/Duress into Meddling Mage is a good idea; T2 2mana temporary discard into MM not so much.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Cavern Harpy and KCommand both pull more than just their weight.
    I just don't see what Harpy does without a General on the field. Like, durdle-bouncing 2-drops to draw an extra card doesn't seem powerful enough for this format. And K Command doesn't hit enough to be a consistent 2for1 currently (this might change). For on-color removal (your colors) that gives us triggers I'd prefer both Rip Apart and Vanishing Verse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    In a vacuum Once upon a Time is a better card than Incubation.
    I haven't played with Incubation yet, but the fact that it can't fix our mana looks really bad. As you wrote, there actually is a considerable number of spells in the deck and whiffing is a real possibility. I mean we're trying to curve into a 3drop here and don't have cantrips or Vial. In Modern, W6 helps in this regard, but we really need some help to make these land drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    SSG seems bad as it is useless on all 2cc spells.
    Domri, Anarch of Bolas : the deck has 22 creatures that can NOT use Domri's mana.
    These don't slot in to your above build, but might work well in an aggro version that's heavy on Naya colors. I'll try to put together a couple of decklists soon to illustrate what I have in mind.

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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    General's good position in Modern as he dodges most removal except for Drown, Helix, Prismari & K Command and W6 -- and well, those are ofc nowhere to be seen in Legacy.
    I agree, and this is one of the main reasons I see potential in General as a build-around. He dodges most commonly played Legacy removal: Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Prismatic Ending, Fatal Push, Snuff Out, Solitude, Skyclave Apparition, Unholy Heat, Gut Shot, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, Red Elemental Blast, Submerge, Fury, Darkblast, Dismember, Abrade...

    For a creature, few cards answer it. That means you only need to shut off a few specific cards to untap with it and make free 4/4s. This leads to a viable build-around game plan, while you can't rely on untapping with most other creatures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    And finally: Do we want some form of mana acceleration?? More interesting options than Birds include: Wild Cantor, Simian Spirit Guide (both good with OuaT) or Chrome Mox. This question ofc also leads us back to the Monke...
    Birds and Wild Cantor were tested in earlier versions. Chrome Mox is bad in multicolor (will tap for wrong color), probably worse than Lotus Petal.

    I personally think Monke is the best option of these... Why play Lotus Petal when you can play "T: Lotus Petal"? Wild Cantor worked but is card disadvantage when the creature you play is removed. At least Monke trades 1-for-1 with their removal (forcing it out), buying tempo for the bigger creature whether he dies or makes the Treasure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Less encouraging: this build and those leagues really illustrate the gulf of difference that remains between the formats
    Don't focus so much on those specific Modern builds. They're built to a Modern meta. If you zoom out, you see 4c midrange is already Tier 1 in Legacy, just with different cards. Many are multicolor cards. There are already Legacy-playable cards and synergies to exploit.

    PEnding and Exit are already very strong in Legacy "Bant Exit" (or whatever the latest UWGR decks call themselves). You'll never get Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath by looking at Modern decklists, but he's another easy auto-include in a 4c deck that wants to recast multicolor spells...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    The more direct reference is of course the Mentor plan:
    I think that's the wrong direction, and the result of trying to mimic a Modern deck too closely instead of looking at things that work in Legacy. Legacy Mentor needs many 1s and maybe even 0s. That's not what this deck is about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Lavinia is another great fit, perhaps more maindeckable than Meddling Mage.
    I figure Lavinia compensates for not getting to run Forces. Also good against combo and 8cast. It punishes everyone playing at Legacy-powered speed instead of this deck's 1-mana per turn fair Midrange (casual/Modern speed).

    I'm big on Meddling Mage. But he is like Cabal Therapy/Curse of Silence. His power level is very dependent on the player's format knowledge and poker skills. Some players do not like these cards.


    I tested this a while back. I mentioned it in another post but did not post the list.


    //Creatures: 16
    4 Ice-Fang Coatl
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Endurance

    //Spells: 22
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Expressive Iteration

    //Planeswalker: 2
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Lands: 20
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Taiga

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Klothys, God of Destiny
    1 Supreme Verdict
    2 Rip Apart
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Guttural Response
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Endurance
    1 Null Rod
    1 Terminus


    It beat up on UR Delver (like Bant does) and performed OK overall on the back of the strong cards. Often it played out like a worse version of Bant. The snow mana got awkward, with the deck usually fetching Bant colors early and then only getting red mana later, which then forces you to bury General and ExIt with cantrips and getting minimal value from them, and then you just want the maindeck Sylvan and Endurance over the red stuff. Because of that, I think forcing Ice-Fang was a mistake. This whole concept would have worked much better with Astrolabe and Oko still legal.

    I abandoned the deck after that little testing. But maybe there was potential in the shell, cutting Ice-Fang for some other multicolor 2-drop (Manamorphose?) and then cleaning up the manabase to support 4c.

    The shell doesn't go as crazy with General as the others, but arguably making 4 4/4s instead of 2 4/4s is just win-more. Even 1 free 4/4 is enough to tilt a game when you're playing with this many high power cards. Maybe there's potential with this shell, with some adjustments.

    Edit: Maybe something like this


    //Lands: 21
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Savannah
    1 Taiga
    1 Karakas
    2 Pillar of the Paruns

    //Spells: 28
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Expressive Iteration

    //Creatures: 11
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Multicolor count: 19

  19. #59
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Modern ... Mentor
    This is not how I meant these Modern references: While mostly theorycrafting I found it useful to just see the General in action for a bit, and those play patterns not the particular card choices--play reactive until the General drops--are very much reminiscent of (Legacy not Modern) Mentor builds. But the main lesson I took was that Manamorphose deserves testing as the mediocre-card concession for synergy here. I mentioned the "gulf between formats" precisely to point out the limits of this approach.

    But I agree with most of your points here: as I wrote initially, fitting GFR into the established xerox shell may just be our best bet here. As I see it, once we're in Jeskai colors, 22 spells are pretty much a given:

    4 BS | Ponder | Force | Swords
    3 Exit | PEnding

    Untapping with the General does seem doable as his only natural predator in the meta are stack interaction (especially Daze) and then ... Karakas and Teferi bounce I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post

    last list
    Now I really like where you're going here, but cramming UUGG into what is otherwise clean Jeskai hurts my eyes, and I think it needlessly clings to Bant when we're on a different plan at this point. The General basically does what Uro does already: taking over / running away with the game.

    Peeking over at the Spirits thread (where you've been active too recently) I want to second Reeplecheep on the merits of Dorothea as a pretty decent on-color Strix/Snake impersonation: dodges Delver removal; stalls the board, kill-blocks most things, and clocks vs combo. Disturb can be seen as a pseudo-draw gold-spell, and we do have quite a bit of agency over when she goes to the yard in the first place.
    EDIT: And the Karakas interaction is pretty neat

    So we're playing tap-out midrange without discard (sorry for another reference: compare with the threat/spell structure of Whiteface's Esper Mentor from earlier this year)

    This is what I have for now:

    12
    2-3 Dorothea
    3-4 Meddling Mage
    0-1 Lavinia
    3-4 General
    2 T3feri

    28
    4 BS | Ponder | Force | Swords
    4 Manamorphose | Expressive Iteration
    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Rip Apart

    20
    1 Karakas
    4 Strand | Tarn
    2 Mesa
    1 Triome | Plateau
    2 Tundra | Volc
    1 Island | Plains | Mountain

    SB
    1 Jegantha (declare Elk when boarding out Forces)
    1 Lavinia
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    3 red blast
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Dovin's Veto
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Rip Apart
    1 Null Rod
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Surgical

    multicolor count = 21 + 6 SB

    EDIT: typos; threat numbers
    Last edited by Tobitzki; 11-30-2021 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    By saying don't copy Mentor, I also meant in the more general sense. Reactive Xerox isn't necessarily the right shell. ExIt encourages a proactive tap-out plan. So do some of the other gold cards like Meddling Mage and Uro. For reactive cards you're looking at Ice-Fang Coatl (which clashes with the mana) and mostly monocolored cards. Proactive might be better. General is also much easier to tap out with (needs less protection than Mentor), is triggered by higher CMC cards, and doesn't need you to have stockpiled a grip of cheap spells, so it works with more proactive play patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Now I really like where you're going here, but cramming UUGG into what is otherwise clean Jeskai hurts my eyes, and I think it needlessly clings to Bant when we're on a different plan at this point. The General basically does what Uro does already: taking over / running away with the game.
    Bant Exit runs Uro in the same 4-color manabase, with fewer colored sources. They do run other green cards (usually Sylvan & Endurance) but not many. It's predominantly UW dipping heavy into green for GG cards. So I don't know how completely unreasonable the mana is. Manamorphose+ Pillar can help stabilize beyond the usual too. Endurance and Carpet of Flowers are strong choices out of the SB, with Carpet significantly improving the mana stability against Delver decks.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-control#paper

    Uro's lifegain is very good at invalidating small attacks (Delver, DRC, Voidwalker, Flickerwisp, Thalia..) helping stabilize against creatures, especially evasive ones. Without Uro or Coatl or Endurance, tanking damage to fast flyers becomes a bigger concern. You can't ambush them with Coatl/Endurance or negate the damage with Uro. Both the +3 life and ambush blockers work well against Marit Lage too (often needs a 2nd attack to kill). Cutting green's Uro and air defense means the deck becomes softer to these strategies.

    General doesn't make up for that. It just floods the ground with dumb beaters. So while it does replace the role of "3-mana run away with the game" and it helps go wide around blockers and removal, it doesn't replace the roles of stabilizing to reach, amassing mana advantage, recurring multiple times, or being an amazing topdeck/Ponder hit (1-card combo). The cards do different things. And Uro does play well with General...(although the mana doesn't).

    When I tested other General builds against UR Delver, a common play pattern was casting General and making 4/4s but getting raced by Murktide/DRC+Bolts. The deck was forced to race or remove everything, since it lacked the ways to stabilize against reach that Bant has. So if you cut Uro and green, the deck needs something else to cover that role.

    Dorothea is interesting as another answer to fast flyers and 2 general triggers in 1 card. It could fill some of those roles. Deserves testing.

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