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Thread: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

  1. #41
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    I like this general idea - lowering the curve, changing the manabase to allow good monocolor spells. It seems more viable.

    To improve the mana (with fetches+duals+basics), you should probably either narrow down to 3 colors (XWr) or make blue a central color and run Xerox cantrips (UWbr). That's how other Legacy decks make functional manabases out of fetchlands + duals. Going 4 color without cantrips isn't really stable while Astrolabe and DRS are banned. Basically, I would think harder about which colors are most important to prioritize here to get good multicolor effects.

    Some of the best multicolor removal is in BG (Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Grist, the Hunger Tide). Unfortunately that would put you in GBWR (4 colors without blue), which is not really viable unless you base it on a lot of green mana fixing, so I see why you cut green.

    Without that BG removal, I think you definitely want Prismatic Ending in there. Even though it doesn't trigger general, it's just too strong and flexible.

    I guess your main color options are:
    BWR (Mardu - discard, premium removal, KComm)
    UWR (Jeskai - counters, premium removal, Meddling Mage)
    UWrb (4color - cantrip fixing, best multicolor cards of each)

    You could try what you have above (4 color without cantrips) but I think you'll run into mana issues.

  2. #42
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    The things I considered for the mana base :

    - the single colored cards are either black or white, so I run basic swamp and plains.
    - the deck wants to start with black and has 14 sources to get it or with white which has 13 sources.
    - from T2 on the Pillars can kick in which give an additional 4 cards for any color.
    - to cast anything blue : 3 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
    - to cast anything red : 2 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
    - I upped the count to 22 lands with 8 fetches and in goldfishing I've continually gone rather smoothly to 3-4 lands
    - you want to get to 4 lands to be able to cast two 2cc spells or a 1cc + 3cc

    You may be correct though that the deck might run into some mana problems at times but I'd like to try it first before making any changes.

    A nice leadoff land ( besides swamp ) is USea.
    Followed up by the plains you can cast Sculler or Mage.
    I try to keep any red sources till T3.

    I cut green because the deck no longer needs the ramp.
    Trophy, Decay and Grist are missed but Rip Apart, KCommand and Kaya replace them and seem just as effective if not more. IMHO.

    Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?

    If you find the time FTW and you can squeeze a few games in I would really love to hear your experienced input on how the deck plays vs 2Delver now.
    Thanks anyway for your time and input.

  3. #43
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Forgot to mention, karakas is nice with 2 generals :)

  4. #44
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    If you're looking to improve the UR 2Delver matchup, mana stability is the answer. Wasteland tempo decks rip apart greedy multicolor midrange decks like this. Even if you find the current mana "stable enough" with 4 colors and 0 cantrips, wouldn't "stable x2" be even better (with cantrips or fewer colors)?

    Have you tried testing it against other decks online or in paper?

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?
    Prismatic Ending only takes 1 mana to kill cards like Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Chalice of the Void, Dragon's Rage Channeler, Mother of Runes, Aether Vial, Retrofitter Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Delver of Secrets, Chrome Mox, etc. Rip Apart needs 2 mana, which slows you down and also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland/Daze/Thalia disrupting you off removal.

    Prismatic Ending can also kill big things Rip Apart cannot kill: Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (3 colors), Marit Lage (1 color), X/X Construct tokens (1 color), Karn, the Great Creator with 4+ counters (4 colors), Jace, the Mind Sculptor with 4+ counters (4 colors), Endurance (3 colors), Thought-Knot Seer (4 colors), Knight of the Reliquary (3 colors), Tarmogoyf (2 colors), 4/4 Hexdrinker (1 color), Kaldra Compleat's Germ token (1 color), etc.

    Rip Apart is a good card. Ending is just amazing in this format, especially in a 4 color deck.

  5. #45
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Alright, solid arguments.
    I was aware Rip Apart cost 1 more mana but the examples I was looking for ( which you provided ample ) were cards like uro, kaldra token etc which I didn't think off.

    With regards to live playing, I'm in the drydocks.
    The places I used to go to do not exist anymore and other daily life things have taken up most of my long time playing partner's time by now.
    I do not play online. Maybe I should give it a try but wouldn't I have to buy the digital cards first then (tix?) How much real money would it cost to digitally purchase this deck btw ? I have most of my decks in paper except for the duals which I proxy.

    So, let's say when it comes to mtg, I'm hungry but can't find much to eat 😉

  6. #46
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Taking your suggestion of "mana stability" to heart, I think I prefer to go to 3 colors and the easiest color to cut is blue.
    Meddling Mage can be replaced by Silverquill Silencer which seems a fair trade off, depending on what you're facing.
    Baleful Strix can be replaced by Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    With 9 fetches, 11 sorceries, 7 instants and 4 Kroxa's the GY should have enough fuel for Kroxa.

    The manabase consists now of 9 fetches ( 3 of each ) , 4 duals, 4 basics, 4 Pillars and Karakas.
    There are still 22 multicolor cards, 16 single colors.

    Prismatic ending can still get Uro, but 4+ cc cards are now out of the question.

    //CC1 - 16
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Prismatic Ending
    1 Duress

    //CC2 - 14
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Silverquill Silencer
    3 Rip Apart
    3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //CC3 - 8
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

    //Lands - 22
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Swamp
    2 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Plateau
    1 Plains
    1 Mountain
    1 Karakas

    //Sideboard WIP
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Solitude
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
    1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation

  7. #47
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    I tested something very similar today, along with your 4 color version.

    I went with this Mardu version

    //Creatures: 19
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric

    //Spells: 20
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Manamorphose
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Planeswalkers: 1
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

    //Lands: 20
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    2 Scrubland
    2 Plateau
    1 Karakas
    1 Mountain
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp


    Manamorphose is an experiment to both help fix colors and double-trigger general in a turn.

    Ragavan is also an experiment. He sort of functions as Mother of Runes (trades with their removal spell to protect your other guys), and if he connects then the Treasures help ramp and fix mana. T1 Ragavan allows potential T2 General.

    In the 4 color (BWUR) version I found Rip Apart clunky (too slow or couldn't answer enough), so I cut down copies and added Prismatic Endings. That build also often stumbled on mana and I couldn't cast my cards optimally. Sometimes it worked and did the thing, but other times it stumbled too much. The best parts were the discard suite and General. I think streamlining it with 3 colors and faster interaction spells will help. Silverquill is also MUCH worse than Meddling Mage, I don't know that it's worth playing.

    I also tried a different RUGW build with Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Prismatic Ending, Ice-Fang Coatl, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Teferi, Time Raveler, Expressive Iteration and Meddling Mage. These are all high power-level multicolor cards! This build beat UR 2Delver consistently, but it played out like a worse version of the Tier 1 Bant deck. I kept winning by playing typical Bant lines, did worst when I drew multiple red cards (General, Iteration), and often used cantrips to bury them. General could work in this build, but probably at only 2-3 copies as a late game engine, or at 4 copies in an 80-card Yorion build.
    Last edited by FTW; 11-05-2021 at 01:38 AM.

  8. #48
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    What a difference a card can make.
    The missing ingredient : Lotus Petal

    The strength of this deck is in its 2cc spells.
    Lotus petal gives you the ability to start right away with a Sculler or Mage, followed up with another one of these on T2.

    Lotus petal is card loss alright but Sculler makes up for it by removing a card from oppponent's hand as well and Strix lets you draw one.

    Another frowned upon card is doing very well so far : Worldly Tutor
    Card disadvantage again, but that disadvantage is nullified later on by all the free 4/4's it can provide you with.
    WT also fits perfectly in the mana curve.
    T1 Bird
    T2 Sculler/Strix/Mage + Tutor for General

    Kolaghan's Command is a 3-off imo because it allows you to play General with less fear of it being countered as you can get it right back from the GY.

    Extra bonus : Worldly Tutor can fetch Grist.

    Petals + Tutor also add to the GY, meaning the deck might be able to use Uro/Kroxa reliably.

    In short, I think this version is already a lot faster and as a result more competitive.

    //CC0
    4 Lotus Petal

    //CC1
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Birds of Paradise
    2 Worldly Tutor

    //CC2
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Baleful Strix
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //CC3
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command
    2 Grist, the Hunger Tide
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Lands
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Mana Confluence
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Savannah
    2 Bayou
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Misty Rainforest

  9. #49
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).

    Just a couple quick interjections:

    1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)

    2) Jegantha, the Wellspring

  10. #50
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Thank you Tobitzki, excellent observations.

    Ragavan : yeah ... I can't wait for him to be banned though as I hate the fact that he shows up in every Rx deck.
    Need to add a Taiga too then.

    I didn't know Incubation.
    It can't fetch you what you want like the Tutor but it can create a 4/4 and it's no card loss.
    Certainly worth trying.

    Jegantha : another good suggestion. For just 1 SB spot this seems worth it.

    Thx.

  11. #51

    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).

    Just a couple quick interjections:

    1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)

    2) Jegantha, the Wellspring
    Awesome suggestions.

    Jegantha is definitely an autoinclude.

    Incubation/Incongruity seems like a huge step up from worldly tutor. It triggers the general, isnt card disadvantage and doubles as removal spell in a pinch (nuking merit lages and murktides and such)

  12. #52
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Incubation, Jegantha and Ragavan all look good.

    I still think the fetch-dual manabase will be better if the deck reduces its colors (if playing against an opponent and not just goldfishing). 5 colors is risky. RW are essential for General, so it just depends on which tools you want with it. Some examples...

    RUWg (cutting black)

    //Companion: 1
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //1cc: 18
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Incubation // Incongruity
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //2cc: 13
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Expressive Iteration
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    //3cc: 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Lands: 22
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    3 Arid Mesa
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Plateau
    2 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Savannah


    Multicolor count = 28 (+ companion)


    Or WRUB (cutting green)

    //Companion: 1
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //1cc: 15
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //2cc: 13
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Baleful Strix
    1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    //3cc: 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Mana: 25
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    4 Arid Mesa
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Plateau
    2 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea


    Multicolor count = 24 (+ companion)

  13. #53
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Sculler and KCommand are among the best cards to pair with the General imo.
    Cutting green makes sense. You can replace anything you lose with similar effect cards in the chosen colors.
    I'd replace one Plow with Kaya, Orzhov Usurper

  14. #54
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    Re: MultiColor Creatures - MCC

    Esper Sentinel seems a better fit for this deck than Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer for several reasons.

    Taxing opponent and card draw seem like more useful abilities for this midrange deck than fast weenie damage, treasure generation and

    spells off opponent's deck.

    Ragavan needs to attack and connect to trigger his abilities.
    Sentinel needs to do nothing.

    Removing Ragavan is easier. A simple 1cc removal spell or a power 1 blocker is enough to neutralize him.
    Removing Sentinel will either tax opponent or draw you a card.

    Ragavan's legendary status means potentially 3 dead cards.
    Multiple Sentinels in play are possible and their effects stack.

    Ragavan needs red mana on T1. Awkward since you need UW, UB or WB on T2. Pressure on the mana base.
    Sentinel blends right in with W cost. No pressure on the mana base.
    The deck basically plays as a 3-color deck with a red splash.

    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade took a spot in the Meddling Mage squad for several reasons.

    She's an automatic counter to FoW, FoN, Daze.
    She also got better in the current meta because she can stop Evoke-effects like Endurance, Solitude and Grief
    She can stop alternative cost spells like Snuff Out, Delve spells like Murderous Cut or Affinity spells like Thoughtcast.
    She automatically counters all 0-cost spells like Mox Opal, Lotus petal, Ornithopter and Mishra's Bauble

    Cavern Harpy
    This card is just PERFECT for this deck.
    Not only can it do its usual bounce tricks but with a general in play that's a 4/4 golem on top of it every time you play it.
    Has extra value in this meta as a recurring counter/blocker vs Murktide.

    Current deck :

    // Companion
    1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

    //CC1 - 18
    4 Judge's Familiar
    4 Esper Sentinel
    4 Incubation // Incongruity
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending

    //CC2 - 14
    4 Tidehollow Sculler
    4 Baleful Strix
    3 Meddling Mage
    2 Cavern Harpy
    1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    //CC3 - 7
    4 General Ferrous Rokiric
    3 Kolaghan's Command

    //Lands - 21
    4 Pillar of the Paruns
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    2 Scrubland
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Plateau
    2 Marsh Flats
    1 Volcanic Island
    Last edited by Borg; 11-26-2021 at 01:16 PM.

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