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Thread: Bumbleberry Pie

  1. #81

  2. #82

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    With Curse of Silence and Paladin Class being printed there is now a critical mass of white 1 drop enchantments that are probably worth a full card. Is it possible to look at this deck again with a Serra’s sanctum manabase? Paladin class and companions are already good sinks for white mana. And lands making tons of mana are a reason to play this deck over other uro piles.

    White one drops as opposed to stuff like sarcomancy both enable and use Serra’s sanctum mana better.

  3. #83
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    With Curse of Silence and Paladin Class being printed there is now a critical mass of white 1 drop enchantments that are probably worth a full card. Is it possible to look at this deck again with a Serra’s sanctum manabase? Paladin class and companions are already good sinks for white mana. And lands making tons of mana are a reason to play this deck over other uro piles.

    White one drops as opposed to stuff like sarcomancy both enable and use Serra’s sanctum mana better.
    The best abuse of that I've seen is the new GW Aggro-Enchantress, which dumps the mana into levelling up Paladin Class and then activating Destiny Spinner multiple times after drawing 10 free cards.

    For Bumbleberry Pie, the question is what synergy do these cards have with Estrid's Invocation, Aminatou or Yorion?

  4. #84

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The best abuse of that I've seen is the new GW Aggro-Enchantress, which dumps the mana into levelling up Paladin Class and then activating Destiny Spinner multiple times after drawing 10 free cards.

    For Bumbleberry Pie, the question is what synergy do these cards have with Estrid's Invocation, Aminatou or Yorion?
    The idea is enchantress needs a certain density of green cards which don’t use the white mana very well in the mid game.

    For bumbleberry pie, they aren’t etbs so they don’t exactly synergize directly. Estrids on silence will usually be gg vs combo and resetting silence to something other than daze lategame can be nice. Estrids also can get blow out by removal on your 2 drop so an additional enchantment gives you insurance.

    However the main point is that a ton of free white mana plus a mini defense grid really helps with resolving and casting your expensive spells (like yorion or history of benalia). Additionally a token deck will get more value out of level 2 paladin class than enchantress will normally.

  5. #85
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The idea is enchantress needs a certain density of green cards which don’t use the white mana very well in the mid game.
    The Aggro GW Enchantress deck does.
    https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...1-Enchantress)

    White mana sinks:
    Paladin Class
    Destiny Spinner
    Green Sun's Zenith
    Cast Out
    On Thin Ice
    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (off Living Wish)

    It's more beatdown oriented so it also gets more value out of Paladin Class than Enchantress Control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    However the main point is that a ton of free white mana plus a mini defense grid really helps with resolving and casting your expensive spells (like yorion or history of benalia). Additionally a token deck will get more value out of level 2 paladin class than enchantress will normally.
    This is true, but my question here is why to play it with the Estrid/Aminatou/Yorion engine as opposed to any other control shell. Once you lose the ETB synergies (especially in the second build) then you could really be any kind of enchantment-based control.

  6. #86

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    I guess the idea is that the paladin class and Serra’s sanctum want a cheapish white enchantment that makes tokens to use them to the full effect. The most value per mana cost in colour to blink with estrids and aminatou are token makers like sarcomancy and history of benalia.

    Compared to other enchantment based control these engines are blue not green so you get to play force of Will and brainstorm. Because they are rebuys rather than cast triggers you get to interact first and then set up your engine rather than the other way around. You also get more selection with blinks than raw draw, similar to how snapcaster mage is better than coiling oracle.

    Draft:

    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Prismatic Ending

    4 Paladin Class
    4 Sarcomancy
    2 Legion’s Landing
    2 Curse of Silence
    4 On Thin Ice

    4 Omen of the Sea
    3 Trial of Ambition
    3 Dress Down

    3 History of Benalia
    3 Aminatou, The Fateshifter
    4 Estrid’s Invocation

    4 Serra’s Sanctum
    1 Karakas
    1 Snow Plains
    3 Snow Swamp
    3 Snow Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    2 Scrubland
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Prismatic Vista

    Between the 1 cmc enchantments and ending you are about 25% to be able to tap and use 2 white mana on t2 from your sanctum. Your aren’t as consistent as ramping as enchantress but the tokens and counterspells and extra removal will be more annoying along the way than abundant growth, pass. Hopefully.

    Edit: dress down is over strix just because it is more castable with 6 W lands. It also should shore up the 8 cast and doomsday matchup. Weird basic distribution again because of all the white sources. Blue count is on the low side (24/80) but that is necessary to maximize Serra’s Sanctum. Trial into estrids is an insane curve vs fair decks and paladin class/Serra’s sanctum/curse of Silence are the best ways to do that into daze.

    Ninja #2: you also get to avoid storm and draw hate that enchantress has trouble with (leovold/Canonist/deafening silence/Hullbreacher/SoTL) at the expensive of being more vulnerable to blue hate. It’s possible that it is a good tradeoff if people view TES and 8cast as the best unfair decks.

  7. #87

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Did some testing last night.

    Paladin class was pretty great.
    Curse of Silence was pretty bad due to the mentioned lack of etb synergy. Wizard class/warlock class performed better.
    Making 3-5 mana with Serra’s sanctum felt broken in a blue deck. Adding yorion to hand and casting it on the same turn was dirty.
    There were so many mana sinks I probably should focus on lowering the curve to boost sanctum

    Draft 2:

    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Prismatic Ending

    4 Paladin Class
    4 Sarcomancy
    2 Legion’s landing
    4 Wizard Class
    4 On Thin Ice

    4 Omen of the Sea
    2 Trial of Ambition
    2 Dress Down

    3 History of Benalia
    3 Aminatou, The Fateshifter
    4 Estrid’s Invocation

    4 Serra’s Sanctum
    1 Snow Plains
    3 Snow Swamp
    3 Snow Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    2 Scrubland
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Prismatic Vista

  8. #88
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Looks good.

    Is this deck dependent enough on Sanctum that you'd want Consecrate Land in the SB vs Wastelands? (Lands, Delver, D&T)

    Estrid doesn't copy Levels right? Aminatou/Yorion blink restores to Level 1?

    Is Wizard Class mainly to boost enchantment count, draw cards and pitch to Force? There must be something better than 4 copies of 2UU to draw 2. Dovin's Acuity? Court of Cunning? Court of Grace? Mystic Remora? Shark Typhoon? Spreading Seas?

    What about playing Counterbalance with Soothsaying? Sanctum mana makes this actually viable. CB also plays well with Omen. CB is one of the most broken pre-MH2 cards still legal in the format, so I think any Ux enchantment-based control shell that could have some way to enable it should strongly consider it. Especially with decks currently favoring Prismatic Ending and Assassin's Trophy over Abrupt Decay.

  9. #89

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Consecrate land seems worse considerably worse than needle, even with the typing.

    Levels are not copied so all of the engines work with it.

    I was using warlock class before but I was concerned about blue count. 1 mana cards are essential to maximizing Serra’s sanctum but perhaps it is too deep.

    Ending is bad for CB but not as bad as decay. Soothsaying could be a choice but then you move back to a parfait/miracles shell rather than a flicker one. Aminatou is still great there but estrids would probably be replaced with Teferi. Wincons would probably change from tokens to rip/etutor/helm.

  10. #90

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Ok going back to the parfait/miracles shell does seem stronger than the kombatkiwi style shell I had above. It’s more in line with what I was doing at the start of this thread. It also makes much better use of curse of silence; the prison/combo shell likes the white “duress” whereas the flicker build is more of a midrange deck. You need more blue for counterbalance but less black so mana is about the same. Rip is the best mono-white 2 drop which is important to use Serra’s Sanctum on t2. Flicker doesn’t really have a good equivalent.

    To make UU work I had to trim Serra’s so soothsaying wasn’t worth it as multiples. Scroll rack is better if you are going to etutor for it.

    Draft:

    UWx good stuff 19
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Ponder
    4 Prismatic Ending
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation
    3 Terminus

    Core 26
    4 Curse of Silence
    3 On thin Ice
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Rest In Peace
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Aminatou

    Enchantment toolbox 8
    3 Enlightened tutor
    1 Energy Field
    1 Scroll Rack
    1 Oath of Kaya
    1 Cast Out
    1 Court of Grace

    Lands 28
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Prismatic Vista
    1 Snow Plains
    4 Snow Island
    1 Snow Swamp
    4 Tundra
    1 Hollowed Fountain
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    2 Serra’s Sanctum

    SB 15
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Force of Negation
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Terminus

    1 Stoney Silence
    1 Graffdigger’s Cage
    1 Land Tax
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Nevermore



    Mapping seems pretty good.
    Forces for discard and removal vs delver.
    Non-blue creature decks are the same as delver plus trim CB package for more etutor package.
    Combo is all the removal out, everything else in.

    Justification behind the maindeck 1ofs:
    Scroll rack for the combo with CB
    Energy Field for the combo with RIP
    Court of Grace for the combo with energy field as well as additional wincons.
    Oath of kaya as a 3 cmc enchantment for CB, lifegain, and back up wincons.
    Cast out as a very low opportunity cost universal answer/terminus enabler.

    Stoney vs 8 cast and combo.
    Damping Sphere is storm hate that also hits green decks.
    Land tax is just great when you are OTD vs non-combo
    Nevermore is great vs uro and combo.
    We already have 4 rip, so cage is just so that you can keep 1 landers vs gy decks.

    Edit: marsh flats should be flooded strand
    I just realized most of my 1 drops are reactive. Ending, on thin ice, brainstorm and sometimes curse are all bad t1 OTP. 4 omen 2 ponder to 4 ponder 2 omen for that reason.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 11-25-2021 at 03:26 PM.

  11. #91
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Yeah, when I was talking above about why restrict yourself to the Estrid's/Yorion flicker engine, I was thinking more of UW RipHelm. Once you remove the ETB synergies there's less reason to play the Estrid's engine over the RiP/Parfait engine or any other enchantment-based control deck (doesn't have to be Solitaire Enchantress).

    I've only played with 60-card builds of it before. For 80-card, I would think you want 4 Enlightened Tutor and 4 Ponder just for consistency. The deck really needs card smoothing to hit the right pieces at the right times and 80 cards increases draw variance. Energy Field is very strong and should be 3-4 copies imho. If you're on 4 Counterbalance then you probably want more Scroll Rack and maybe 1-of Soothsaying for more library manipulation, otherwise CB is too unreliable with blind flips.

    Curse of Silence looks bad here. Even though there's a combo kill (turn 3-5 possible), games typically go very long to the point where they can pay the tax and you wish you had a permanent answer. Curse is much better in aggressive decks. Land Tax would be a much better 1 cmc enchantment, especially because you can get away with a high basic count (Hallowed Fountain is unnecessary).

    Mystic Sanctuary is pretty bad (read Rest in Peace). Too often it just enters tapped for tempo loss or loses to nonbasic hate, while the chance of it returning Terminus is low with RiP nuking your graveyard. Maybe it's better in 80 card, but it was just garbage in 60 card.

  12. #92

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    These are good points. Aminatou I still think is justifiable since her plus is good with miracles and CB and her minus is great with sanctuary and curse.

    The main point is that curse is one of the only cards that trades up on tempo vs Daze. Like a white carpet that also is annoying for A+B combo. Lategame you can just cycle it and you are still up on mana. Before FoN control decks would play a few spell Pierce. This can “hit” anything, doesn’t require holding up mana, powers up sanctum, plays way better into daze, and cycles lategame.

    Omen is nice with aminatou, CB, and yorion. But turning them into 2 ponders and 2 energy field could be correct. The “vomit permanents onto the battlefield” decks like 8 cast and elves have a lot of trouble with it. Do you really think I need more CB enablers with etutor, sanctuary, aminatou, brainstorm, and omen/ponder?

    Because of how colour intensive the deck is I don’t think we can operate on less lands than our opponent. Tax does synergize well with scroll rack though.

    Sanctuary is awful with basics and rip indeed. But it is sooooo good with aminatou (she can target it with minus or draw it immediately with plus) and CB I thought it might be worth it.

  13. #93
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Yeah, that's a good point about Curse buying tempo to set up. In 60-card I could never find room, but you have space in 80 and it cycles and adds to enchantment count.

    I think Omen is great here actually, maybe even worth more copies. It synergizes with everything and fixes draws. I'd look for cuts elsewhere before them.

    A lot of your CB enablers are 1-time use. They do work, but they may also be needed for things other than setting up CB. The only repeatable instant-speed enabler is 1 Scroll Rack in 80 cards. CB is so much more oppressive with a repeatable enabler that can respond to the stack. I found myself losing control of the game without them. When I added Scroll Rack (post Oko ban), the ability to just take over the lategame went way up. Edit: You have 4 Aminatou, but with sorcery speed activations opponent can break through more easily.

    Here's roughly what I was running for 60 card UW RiP/Parfait

    //Lands: 19
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Tundra
    5 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

    //Spells: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Prismatic Ending
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Terminus

    //Enchantments: 14
    2 Land Tax
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Energy Field
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Court of Cunning

    //Artifacts: 4
    3 Scroll Rack
    1 Helm of Obedience

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Humility
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Meddling Mage
    1 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Flusterstorm


    I see that your deck is a 3rd color and trying to do some different things, so it's not quite comparable. Land Tax may not work in yours. But I'm looking more at the density of card selection and CB enablers.

    With 80 cards and 4 CBs it doesn't hurt to have a lot of library manipulation. I would start with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 ETutor, 2-4 Omen, and multiple Scroll Rack. You can fill in the rest with the tools you want but the card selection should help you get there (and also abuse CB at the same time). For example, maybe 3 copies of Aminatou is enough if you have more lower cmc cards to help you draw into it anyway.
    Last edited by FTW; 11-25-2021 at 11:25 PM.

  14. #94
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    For 80-card with UWb, maybe something like this
    (Edit: I can see why you have Energy Field as a 1-of because it's awkward with Planeswalkers. Web of Inertia works though)

    I went with 1 Scroll Rack + 1 Soothsaying instead of multiple Racks, because without Land Tax there's less payoff.


    //Companion: 1
    1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

    //Lands: 29
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Marsh Flats
    3 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Hall of Storm Giants
    1 Karakas
    2 Serra's Sanctum

    //UW Good Spells: 25
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Prismatic Ending
    2 Force of Negation
    3 Terminus

    //Planeswalkers: 3
    3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

    //Enchantments: 22
    4 Curse of Silence
    2 On Thin Ice
    1 Soothsaying
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Rest in Peace
    3 Omen of the Sea
    1 Energy Field
    1 Web of Inertia
    1 Cast Out
    1 Court of Grace

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Scroll Rack
    1 Helm of Obedience

  15. #95

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Ran a similar but miracle-less build through a league. I went 1-4 but most games went to g3. The deck felt powerful but hard and I made lots of mistakes.

    • The etutor into 2 cmc haymaker feels so good vs unfair decks g2.
    • Serra’s sanctum was great.
    • Counterbalance never had a time to shine since it always got forced. “Shrug”?
    • I etutored aggressively for rip vs uro decks; when it got ended it felt horrible.
    • Curse of silence was great. Seeing an opponent try to force and then take it back was “chefs kiss”. Vs TES I named dark ritual, saw a hand with 3 rite of flame, and then Reset it to rite with aminatou.
    • Etutor for a naked energy field just straight up won g1 vs elves. The web can’t do that and if I have rip and lots of mana I’d just get helm. I got wrecked g2 by playing it naked instead of leading on rip and then my rip got thoughtseized. But that’s just inexperience.
    • Serra’s sanctum is great, and soothsaying would be good with both it and CB. I would like to play 4 but you end up with too many non-blue sources. Adding a few Mystic Gate could be cool to cast cantrips and CB off of Serra’s sanctum or a plains enchanted with t1 on thin ice. I probably should cut the basic swamp too since it doesn’t work with mystic gate or CB.
    • I didn’t miss the lack of terminus. Court as a tutor target seemed unnecessary since I should always have one of the 2 comboes in play. Especially if I can up soothsaying.
    • Oath of Kaya was great. In one game I almost burnt out my D&T opponents from 20 (they had triple mom)
    • Etutors were bad enough in multiples vs fair blue that I don’t think 4 is warranted. At least MD. Shortcake and doomsday only play 2 of their respective tutors and are more combo focused.


    Soothsaying no miracles deck.


    //Companion: 1
    1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

    //Lands: 29
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    2 Mystic Gate
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Serra's Sanctum

    //UW Good Spells: 21
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Prismatic Ending
    2 Force of Negation

    //Planeswalkers: 3
    3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

    //Enchantments/Artifacts: 27
    4 Curse of Silence
    3 On Thin Ice
    3 Soothsaying
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Rest in Peace
    4 Omen of the Sea
    1 Energy Field
    1 Cast Out
    1 Oath of Kaya
    2 Helm of Obedience


    The deck is lower to the ground and more focused. Getting to have lands that tap for more than 2 in a fow deck feels disgusting and I think the deck has promise.

  16. #96
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    That looks tighter.

    Good point, Energy Field is better on its own. I play multiple Energy Fields over Web for that reason. It can buy many turns to draw out of a bad board state. I thought it'd be a liability with planeswalkers, but probably not as much as Energy Field saves you. 1-of Sphere of Safety in the SB is an option.

    Vs decks with discard, I try to use cantrips/ETutor/Scroll Rack to keep combo pieces on top of library instead of in hand. You can ETutor on EOT or on upkeep before draw step, dodging sorcery speed interaction. Walking out Energy Field first risks the 2-for-1 if they could discard or counter RiP. Sometimes it's still the correct play. It's a judgment call depending on the risk they might kill you next turn. If you do run out naked Energy Field, this is a reason to be on 4x Prismatic Vista + basics instead of too many duals, because you don't want to lose Energy Field to Wasteland!

    What did you face in the League? I'm surprised you didn't miss Terminus with only 1 Energy Field in 80 cards. How did you interact with big creature board states? 1-for-1 removal was enough?

    I always run a Court as an alternate win con. I ran into a number of board states where I made it impossible for the opponent to win, but they also made it impossible for me to win (e.g. they went Karn, the Great Creator -> Pithing Needle on Helm, and now ETutor can't find removal for both). I also avoid exposing Helm until I have control of the game and stack, even if I had the mana for it. So at that point I'd have to durdle and hope to topdeck out of it or deck them. The problem is variance. When you're both passing the turn drawing 1 card each, opponent will often get a better sequence of draws and then be able to break the lock first. This means a game that "should" be a W can turn into a L if opponent doesn't concede and gets lucky. ETutor into Court solved these problems: alternate win-con dodging Helm hate and I draw 2 cards per turn to out-resource them.

    I found Court of Cunning more reliable than Court of Grace for multiple reasons: pitches to FoW, better CMC for Counterbalance, worked when I didn't have Helm mana, and synergizes with RiP to remove outs from their deck. The tokens also died too easily, because in game 1 opponent typically has multiple dead removal spells or extra creatures to block with. The downside is Court of Cunning can't win back the Monarch, so you need to guarantee the combat step is locked down (easier in my build with multiple Energy Field & SB Humility). I thought Court of Grace would be better in your build because you have easy white mana (Sanctum) and you can't lock down combat as easily. But you do already have other ways to win. I overlooked how well Oath of Kaya + Aminatou can work as a wincon, especially when you don't run StP.

    Because of your Sanctum engine and 0 Land Tax, maybe multiple Soothsaying and 0 Scroll Rack is the way to go. I do like Scroll Rack's ability to fix bad draws on its own (e.g. put back extra lands + redundant pieces to draw cards, then fetch or ETutor to reset library). It's never dead in multiples because 1 Rack can convert the other into a fresh card, while extra Soothsayings are dead. Rack has many alternate uses like that, aside from the Land Tax and CB combos. It can protect your hand from discard. It can put junk on top to manage Ragavan and keep the card you want 2 deep. It can dig deep for a combo piece, without cracking Energy Field. It can dig with Narset/Leovold out. It stops you from decking (alternate wincon). It's a decision-intensive card that can do a lot in the lategame, but it is slow in the early turns.

    I find 3 ETutor the right number for 60 cards. I assumed 4 would work for 80 but haven't tested it. I also ran 3 with Jeskai Breach, as did most others. I think Fox ran 3 in UW Dreadstill and UWx Landstill before cutting it for a different engine. Shortcake runs 2 ETutor because white is a splash and they have other tutors on color. If they had reliable T1 white mana, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 3rd copy. Doomsday's Personal Tutor is miles worse (sorcery speed & only finds sorceries). If Mystical Tutor was legal they'd probably run more than 2. Combo ran Mystical as a 4-of before the ban. You don't want 2 ETutor in the opener often, but you still want at least 1 copy early most games. You get so many wins from early tutor into silver bullet. Copies drawn later add a lot of tempo to finishing the game before opponent has time to break out of a lock. The card disadvantage is less of an issue than it seems because you're usually tutoring for 6-for-1s (combo pieces or cards that shut down whole strategies) instead of 1-for-1s. If the target resolves (and you tutored for the right thing for that matchup and game state), you're usually far ahead.

    Against fair blue, you can avoid ETutor's card disadvantage by playing around 1-for-1 counters. Don't jam an ETutor target into Daze. If they Force or double Daze, you traded 2-for-2. Luckily Spell Pierce and Spell Snare see less play and Fluster can't hit enchantments, so they have limited 1-for-1 counter options. Hardcast Force is the biggest threat, but you can tax that with Curse and also play around it with timing (remember ETutor is 1-mana instant and you aren't forced to jam if they're just durdling with 5 untapped lands). Postboard REB is a bigger problem for the blue enchantments, but it can't hit RiP or Helm. For these matches I find it helps to play out Counterbalance first. Let them fight over Counterbalance, using up their counters/PEndings. Then you have a clearer path to resolve RiP+Helm. If Counterbalance lands, then you can time ETutor to find the piece when it would also counter a spell of the same CMC (Expressive Iteration, Prismatic Ending for 2, etc), stealing back +1 card. I also like to board in cards like Teferi, Time Raveler and Meddling Mage/Nevermore. That way you can present a single card that threatens to shut off every counter in hand, instead of boarding in counters and trying to win a fair counter war, potentially losing to something like Force + double REB when you expected to beat their 4-card hand. With 4x Curse you can really play up this strategy. For me, Back to Basics helps the fair blue match by making it hard for them to leave up Force mana, but it clashes with your Sanctum.

    Unfortunately Ragavan is oppressive to play against. Parfait/CB does a lot of topdeck manipulation and Ragavan messes that up. In one game, T1 Ragavan OTP (with Daze for my removal of course) stole Counterbalance on the first attack and jammed it (replay Volc + Treasure). Then I ended up having to play against Ragavan + Counterbalance before my 2nd turn... My build did a lot better against fair blue when they were on Oko/Uro builds instead of Ragavan builds.

    I should try out Sanctums. Probably in an 80-card build. I won't play the black cards because I prefer the smoother mana with basics, but otherwise stuff like Curse of Silence and Omen would still fit well.

  17. #97

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    idol of oblivion is another payoff for Serra’s sanctum if we go back to the token build. Can be bounced with aminatou to draw cards too.

    The important point is you can cast it off Serra’s sanctum mana t2 unlike the other payoffs. T1 interactive enchantment (paladin/curse/on thin ice) t2 sarcomancy/legions end this

  18. #98
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Just fyi, Idol of Oblivion keeps on giving with Bitterblossom.

    These two cards could even form the core of a deck imo.
    Maybe a Legacy variant of that Warden modern deck you posted in ?

  19. #99
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    4,776

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Idol does seem promising in the aggro-token build.

    Bitterblossom does seem good with Paladin Class

    Attrition is a card that may be of interest as spot removal if you're playing a bunch of tokens, but maybe 4x On Thin Ice is just better.

  20. #100

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Idol does seem promising in the aggro-token build.

    Bitterblossom does seem good with Paladin Class

    Attrition is a card that may be of interest as spot removal if you're playing a bunch of tokens, but maybe 4x On Thin Ice is just better.
    The problem I need solving though is that the token build has trouble with blue count. Blue token support has ravens warning, but that needs a critical density of flyers. Hard evidence is low impact and can’t be etb’d. I am worried opposition is too expensive nowadays. Cabal Therapy is the other reason to play tokens in legacy but wants additional discard. Keep watch or military intelligence seem lacklustre. Strix is weird with Serra’s sanctum.


    Hard Evidence
    Opposition
    Raven’s Warning
    Keep Watch
    Military Intelligence
    Baleful Strix

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