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Thread: Bumbleberry Pie

  1. #161
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    It’s hard to cut one of the colours to a splash. Serra’s and prismatic are white, ponder and our engines are blue, and the best targets are sarcomancy and trial. The most reasonable manabase would be WBx but cutting ponder is probably not defensible.
    That was how I arrived at the WBu version above.

    White and black are both core to the deck. Blue is only needed for the 3 cmc engines. So blue could be made into a splash if you're willing to let go of Xerox (which forces you to strain blue count to support FoW and fetch differently to support cantrips). Cutting the blue stuff loses consistency and FoW protection, but you gain smoother mana and redundancy (4-ofs in 60 card build). That means seeing Sanctum and Estrid more often to really profit off the deck's unique advantages. Multiple Paladin Class and discard are then necessary to protect you from disruption, without Forces in the deck.

    It's not quite a bad BW aggro deck. It looks like that against combo, but against fair creatures you still have the midrange plan of T2 value enchantment -> T3 Estrid/Aminatou -> snowball out of control. Trial of Ambition could replace some other slots.

    I don't know if it's better than what you already have, but it is an option.

    Edit: What about SB Doomwake Giant? It's slow but answers token spam. Might be worse than just playing Detention Sphere.

  2. #162

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Ok here is a draft for a WBu build cutting ponder for dragon and cling. Not quite as good cards but they play better into the Serra’s sanctum theme. I am still supporting fow and brainstorm though as they require turn 1 U less. This affords us a few more basics.

    Teferi to dsphere as per above.


    3 Legion’s Landing
    4 Sarcomancy
    3 Paladin Class

    3 Life of Toshiro Umezawa
    4 Trial of Ambition
    4 Omen of the sea

    2 Detention Sphere
    4 Estrid’s Invocation
    3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

    4 Brainstorm
    2 Cling to Dust
    2 Timeless Dragon
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Force of Will
    3 Force of Negation

    4 Serra’s Sanctum
    2 Scrubland
    1 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    3 Delta
    3 Strand
    4 Flats
    4 Vista
    4 Snow Swamp
    1 Snow Island
    2 Snow Plains

  3. #163
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Once you're in WBu, is Omen of the Sea (splash color) better than Hidden Stockpile (card selection + bodies in WB), Enlightened Tutor (card selection in W), or Warlock Class (card selection in B)?

  4. #164

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Once you're in WBu, is Omen of the Sea (splash color) better than Hidden Stockpile (card selection + bodies in WB), Enlightened Tutor (card selection in W), or Warlock Class (card selection in B)?
    I think omen is necessary to support fow without running too many 3 drops. Having a 2 drop that is relevant when removal is not is also good for the curve.

  5. #165
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    What about Lithoform Blight? That's a black cantrip. Does "loses all abilities and types" happen at a lower layer than "becomes Island", so that Thespian's Stage would copy something with no abilities?

  6. #166

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    An alternative package I have thought of is a self-mill/zombies engine.


    Warlock Class
    The Modern Age
    Tymaret Calls the Dead

    Master of Death
    Cabal Therapy
    Narfi, Betrayer King

    This lets you support blue without needing blue pips.

  7. #167

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    iirc cards like Stage and Vesuva are "hard" copies, while Spreading Seas would turn Field into a "soft" copy. So if you have a Stage target a "hard" copied Vesuva as Island, your Stage becomes a "hard" copy of Island...but if you have a Stage target a "soft" copied Field of the Dead as Island (due to Spreading Seas), you get a fully operational Stage as Field through Spreading Seas. This makes a card like Spreading Seas a really bad answer, even when you're not getting blown out by FoV. The other issue here is putting down a lot of the prison on cmc 2 vs Blast Zone. Assuming the rules work like this still, Seas remains a poor answer to Depths.
    This hard/soft distinction has no real basis in the rules at all. How this works is because copy effects apply in layer 1 before any other modifications, so the only attributes that get copied are the printed values of the card (so if you copy a Field with spreading seas on it you just get a unmodified Field of the Dead, because spreading seas modifies Field in a later layer), plus how they are modified by any other copy effects (so if Stage copies Vesuva which originally copied a mountain, then your Stage becomes a Mountain, not a "blank" Vesuva)

    What about Lithoform Blight? That's a black cantrip. Does "loses all abilities and types" happen at a lower layer than "becomes Island", so that Thespian's Stage would copy something with no abilities?
    The only relevant thing is that both of them happen at a later layer than layer 1, so "becomes copy of target permanent" will ignore both Seas/Blight and give you an unmodified copy of the original card

    Generally I think that Detention Sphere is probably the best anti-field card. Virulent Plague may be okay too (SB) but it has far less utility in other matchups and like you have identified it's a nonbo here when you're trying to win with your own tokens.

  8. #168

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Displacer Kitten
    3U
    Creature - Cat Beast
    Avoidance - Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, exile up to one target nonland permanent you control, then return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control.
    "Isn't she the cutest thing you've almost seen?"
    - Doen, purveyor of exotic pets

    This could let us go away from the token stuff into a combo control shell.

    Draws our deck with baubles and 3feri.

    Still a very strong value engine with stuff like omen of the sea

    Aminatou plus serras sanctum lets you generate mana and storm off.

    Our kill condition can be Oath of Kaya so you don’t need any bad cards (other than the baubles and maybe a few petals)

  9. #169

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    The “exploding kittens” shell would be:


    Part A (blink)
    4 Kitten

    Part B (permanents to flicker)
    4 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Spirited Companion

    Part C (free artifacts or W enchantments)
    4 Mishra’s Bauble
    3 Lotus Petal
    4 Curse of Silence
    4 Paladin Class
    4 Swift Reconfiguration

    Part D (Wincon)
    3 Oath of Kaya


    The argument to play this over say Aluren would be that perhaps all the pieces are better played fairly/by themselves. And your combo pieces are also protection.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 05-25-2022 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #170
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    I don't see the reason to make your enabler cost 4 mana and die to any spot removal when these weren't problems before. This is EDH tech. In legacy it seems win-more when it works, lose-more otherwise.

    It was never necessary to be token-blink. KombatKiwi's version showed Estrid+Aminatou works blinking value control enchantments instead. I thought tokens was something you wanted to do. If you don't want tokens, you don't need Kitten either. Oath is playable either way.

  11. #171

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    5 Snow Covered Island
    2 Snow Covered Plains
    1 Snow Covered Mountain

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tundra

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Sevinne's Reclamation

    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Estrids Invocation
    4 Spreading Seas
    2 On Thin Ice
    1 Court of Cunning
    1 History of Benalia

    SB
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Soul Guide Lantern
    1 Detention Sphere / Banishment
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Dovin's Acuity (???)
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Surgical Extraction
    5? Pyroblast

    I realised that moving to snow lands and playing 2x thin ice in the "flex removal slot" probably solves a lot of issues

    New card Banishment instead of D Sphere in sb is debateable (it's 3W detention sphere with flash). Costing 1 more is not a huge deal in terms of curve reasons and having flash and not being pyroblastable is relevant, but you can't bring it back with Sevinnes if they kill it. You could also split that with Thin Ice maindeck maybe if you wanted the extra SB slot

    Thinking about whether Dovins Acuity makes sense in SB or whether it should just be like a hard defense card like Solitary Confinement or COP red or something. Also wondering about SB humility now that I cut it from the maindeck

  12. #172

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    For a controlling build we could also add

    Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward
    4W
    Legendary Creature - Human Warrior
    When Abdel Adrian, Gorion's Ward enters the battlefield, exile any number of other nonland permanents you control until Abdel Adrian leaves the battlefield. Create a 1/1 white Soldier creature token for each permanent exiled this way.

    Choose a Background. (You can have a Background as a second commander.)

    People are talking about how he is comboes with animate dead, but he also goes infinite with a oring and another oring or aminatou, as well as being a decent value play.

  13. #173

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    The other thing I haven’t tried is Restoration of Eijango. If the heart of the deck is serras sanctum something that creates tokens like history but also “sevinnes” back my land could be strong. I haven’t tried it previously because fitting in plains on top of serras is difficult.

    The Restoration of Eiganjo
    {2}{W}
    Enchantment — Saga
    (As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter.)
    I — Search your library for a basic Plains card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
    II — You may discard a card. When you do, return target permanent card with mana value 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
    III — Exile this Saga, then return it to the battlefield transformed under your control.
    Architect of Restoration
    Color Indicator: White Enchantment Creature — Fox Monk
    Vigilance
    Whenever Architect of Restoration attacks or blocks, create a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.
    “A visionary looks at rubble and sees not only what was, but also what could be.”
    —Onyx-Eye, architect of Eiganjo
    3/4

  14. #174

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The other thing I haven’t tried is Restoration of Eijango. If the heart of the deck is serras sanctum something that creates tokens like history but also “sevinnes” back my land could be strong. I haven’t tried it previously because fitting in plains on top of serras is difficult.

    The Restoration of Eiganjo
    {2}{W}
    Enchantment — Saga
    (As this Saga enters and after your draw step, add a lore counter.)
    I — Search your library for a basic Plains card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle.
    II — You may discard a card. When you do, return target permanent card with mana value 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped.
    III — Exile this Saga, then return it to the battlefield transformed under your control.
    Architect of Restoration
    Color Indicator: White Enchantment Creature — Fox Monk
    Vigilance
    Whenever Architect of Restoration attacks or blocks, create a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.
    “A visionary looks at rubble and sees not only what was, but also what could be.”
    —Onyx-Eye, architect of Eiganjo
    3/4
    I thought about this but I think the deck it goes in is something WGx
    Even if you decide that replenish is bad/wrong (reasonable), playing Serras Sanc in deck without Growth/Sprawl seems iffy to me and the Eiganjo card seems really nice with Sterling Grove (return permanent with mana 2 or less [this can also be argothian actually], gives the enchantment creature shroud)

    With the UWR build I think that actually the manacurve is not so pressed and making things island isn't so crucial (with thin ice in the deck you can flicker estrid on that to mop up constructs) that the deck can afford to play Dovin's Acuity main over some spreading seas, which is generally a better grindy card assuming you have time to use it and it also solves the lifegain problem

    So with the list above
    Main:
    -2 Spreading Seas
    +2 Dovin's Acuity

    SB:
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Soul Guide Lantern
    1 Detention Sphere / Banishment
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Humility
    5? Pyroblast / 4+1 Flex slot

    edit:bombed fnm with that list, moving forward im just going to netdeck some stock jeskai from the challenge results

    Overall I'm not too unhappy with how the idea turned out as a brew (and I think the list I settled on with the 2 Sea 2 Thin Ice 2 Acuity seems good/fine) it's just that the amount of effort needed isn't quite worth the in-game payoff (compare Dressdown -> Narset vs Omen of the Sea -> Invocation for example). Definitely worth keeping Invocation in mind for the future, but it's also difficult to imagine the type of printable 1-2 mana enchantment that's so strong to make the combo worth it. Maybe a Yorion build is also possible.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 06-03-2022 at 04:09 PM.

  15. #175

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Ok I played a few 3-2 & 2-3 leagues. The highs of the deck are awesome but the deck does have issues functioning sometimes.

    Building the idea of the deck back from the ground up:
    • Serra’s Sanctum + Yorion + Force of Will is the core niche of the deck. Serra’s gives the mana to play Yorion in a timely fashion. Yorion provides CA or a blue card for FoW. FoW gives time for the extra sanctum mana to matter. That is the “vintage level” thing this deck does; free counters plus free fast mana gives you such a huge “tempo” advantage over the opponent. There is a reason Tolarian Academy is banned.
    • Trial into blink engine is the other core of the deck. Putting an abyss into play on t2 is quite strong against fair creature decks and differentiates the deck from the normal control piles of 3 removal into CA or enchatress’s less interactive style.
    • Should the deck be Esper? Right now what esper offers 2 sets of things:
    • Discard from Black and the best Hate from White is an extremely good anti-combo sideboard. Thiscomplements Yorion piles inherently having better fair matchups and worse unfair ones. I have been using this to good effect.
    • Teferi plus strix are the best generic control cards in these colours and have good synergy. They are also extremely powerful with aminatou. I haven’t been using these since they conflict with serras sanctum and Estrids.
    • Some of the interesting enchantments are legendary (oath of Kaya for killing and protecting PWs, legions landing for more consistent token protection) or are hard to copy (estrids will only copy the weak creature side of flip sagas)



    Although I meant for this deck to be an Estrids Invocation deck, I think either it needs to go or we would need to switch to another colour. Estrids is great when it works, but prevents us from using some of the best cards in our colours and does nothing on an empty board.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 06-17-2022 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Help me, indent is breaking the post

  16. #176
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    If FoW + Yorion + Sanctum is the core, you still want high enchantment count and ETB triggers, so Estrid + Aminatou + Teferi fits well. The combo with Trial of Ambition is very strong, too.

    How good is the rest of the deck though? Is the token engine the weakest part? What if you tilt towards control? Then you can play Supreme Verdict to beat decks that out-token you, and you don't have to play awful cards like Legion's Landing. Though Sanctum probably needs to be a 3-of if you cut back on the 1-mana enchantments.

    For a win condition, Shark Typhoon is a great mana sink at both modes.


    //Companion: 1
    1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

    //Lands: 29
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    2 Snow-Covered Swamp
    3 Serra's Sanctum

    //Spells: 25
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Cling to Dust
    3 Force of Negation
    2 Supreme Verdict

    //Planeswalkers: 5
    3 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Enchantments: 21
    4 Curse of Silence
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Trial of Ambition
    4 Estrid's Invocation
    1 Detention Sphere
    1 Oath of Kaya
    1 Court of Cunning
    2 Shark Typhoon


    Curse of Silence could fill a pseudo-"discard" slot against combo while playing well with your enchantment game plan. It does require being good at Cabal Therapy. But if you guess poorly you can at least reset it with Aminatou or pile up with Estrid's (sacrifice is optional).

    Dress Down could also be good here as a cantripping blue enchantment that hates on a lot of popular Legacy interactions.

    Maybe you can make room for 1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity in the manabase.

    1-2 Timeless Dragon seems good for mana stability and threats and white mana sinks, but it fights for space with non-enchantment cards (Teferi? Cling?).

  17. #177

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Estrids obviously make sense in the deck since that was why the deck was built. But you can only have so many 3 drops & 3feri has a better floor. Oath (removal that isn’t dead against control or combo) & strix (best interactive blue etb) are the two targets I really wanted that aren’t really justifiable with 4x Estrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    1-2 Timeless Dragon seems good for mana stability and threats and white mana sinks, but it fights for space with non-enchantment cards (Teferi? Cling?).
    It was good but I think strix is better if the manabase accommodates it. Timeless dragon stretches the manabase in the other direction as well. A lot of plains or white duals in a deck that also is playing 4 sanctum -> uncastable B or U cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How good is the rest of the deck though? Is the token engine the weakest part? What if you tilt towards control? Then you can play Supreme Verdict to beat decks that out-token you, and you don't have to play awful cards like Legion's Landing. Though Sanctum probably needs to be a 3-of if you cut back on the 1-mana enchantments.
    A lifelink 1/1 is bit worse than a 2/2. But the legendary rule was the biggest issue imo which doesn’t effect 3feri/aminatou. Life of Umezawa also improves the stock of the vampires compared to older builds. The tokens aren’t amazing but I need 1 cmc enchantments with good ETBs for Serra’s sanctum. The list is otherwise pretty short (basically just Warlock Class, to stretch the definition of good to barely playable). With 4 1 cmc enchantments, non of which are non-white, you are going to have a ton of troubled developing your mana even if with 3 sanctums.

    Summary of changes, mostly focused on improving the decks floor:

    4 Estrid’s -> 4 3 feri. Obviously improves the floor at the cost of a lower ceiling. He also helps vs blue combo.

    Omen and plow -> strix. With strix and 3feri marit lage is less of an issue. Retooled the manabase to have the proper 26 UB sources

    2 & 3 cmc token producers -> oath and legions landing. Legendary enchantments we can play now.


    2 Legion’s Landing
    4 Sarcomancy
    3 Paladin Class
    1 Warlock Class

    3 Life of Tohsiro Umezawa
    4 Trial of Ambition
    4 Omen of the sea

    2 Oath of Kaya
    4 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Prismatic Ending
    4 Force of Will
    3 Force of Negation

    3 Serra’s Sanctum
    1 Scrubland
    1 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Delta
    4 Strand
    4 Flats
    3 Vista
    3 Snow Swamp
    3 Snow Island
    1 Snow Plains

  18. #178
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The tokens aren’t amazing but I need 1 cmc enchantments with good ETBs for Serra’s sanctum. The list is otherwise pretty short (basically just Warlock Class, to stretch the definition of good to barely playable). With 4 1 cmc enchantments, non of which are non-white, you are going to have a ton of troubled developing your mana even if with 3 sanctums.
    Do you need to go aggro-Sanctum though? (curve out T1 enchant T2 enchant T3 Sanctum taps for WW)

    If this is a Yorion control deck, what's wrong with Sanctum only taking over on turns 5+? Why do you need to mana sink early? If you play more interactive control cards, you can slow down the game. Then you can cash in Sanctum for Yorion / Shark Typhoon without needing to run cards that are bad if Sanctum gets disrupted. Maybe that means only 2 Sanctum then.

    If you want to play aggro-Sanctum ramp (ramp with Sanctum as fast as possible), then the deck probably wants green: Utopia Sprawl/Abundant Growth/Exploration/Wild Growth/Oath of Nissa. Those are the best 1-mana enchantments if your goal is to develop mana quickly.

    Otherwise the 1-mana cards don't really help ramp or control. They make a mediocre board presence until an engine comes online and it's underwhelming if you never draw Sanctum in the 80-cards. Once you cut Estrid, there's even less payoff for the token makers.

    Another possible package is Soothsaying + Counterbalance. Soothsaying comes down turn 1 from Island, then provides a mana sink and soft-lock with Sanctum mana. Both pitch to Force. CB plays well with Omen too. If you're cutting Estrid then you're not constrained to ETB effects.

  19. #179

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Do you need to go aggro-Sanctum though? (curve out T1 enchant T2 enchant T3 Sanctum taps for WW) .
    I agree this isn’t enchantress. We don’t need it to make WW on t3. We do need it to make at least W by t3, preferably t2 though. I am not sure the correct amount but I did cut down from 12-16 1 drops to only 10.

    In a list like yours where it isn’t reliably making mana we either: are playing a control deck with the equivalent of only 19 lands and 6 good cantrips, or you need to run the equivalent of only 36 non-lands. I don’t think control can afford 3 cards that are completely dead until t4 and can’t be pitched to fow.

  20. #180

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Otherwise the 1-mana cards don't really help ramp or control. They make a mediocre board presence until an engine comes online and it's underwhelming if you never draw Sanctum in the 80-cards. Once you cut Estrid, there's even less payoff for the token makers.

    Another possible package is Soothsaying + Counterbalance. Soothsaying comes down turn 1 from Island, then provides a mana sink and soft-lock with Sanctum mana. Both pitch to Force. CB plays well with Omen too. If you're cutting Estrid then you're not constrained to ETB effects

    The idea is that Paladin Class and Life of Umezawa are cards that are primarily interaction, but also make the bodies relevant even without an engine. That may be Ill-founded however

    Soothsaying/aminatou counterbalance is another approach. The miracles approach probably wants more miracles and less trial/strix though, which were the reasons we are in black.

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