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Thread: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Titans

  1. #21
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.
    Correct. It works exactly like Humility, except things aren't 1/1s.

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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    1U - Flash - Attacker becomes 13/13. Draw a card.

    This is not a terrible mode for a card you already want to play for other reasons. The fail case is trading 2-for-2 (removal) or 1-for-1 (counter).

  4. #24

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.
    Of course. But a surprise 13/13 is quite good on occasion, especially if you also cast a 12/12 or a titan that same turn ensuring your opponent must have multiple pieces of interaction or will die by next turn.

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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Of course. But a surprise 13/13 is quite good on occasion, especially if you also cast a 12/12 or a titan that same turn ensuring your opponent must have multiple pieces of interaction or will die by next turn.
    It's not really the damage-surprise factor that matters. It's the "lol you lost deathtouch and your Strix/Ice-Fang, and I draw a card, and [insert dude] survives" factor.

    ^This is what you really care about, as it's a 2-for-none (they lose a thing and they have to lose another card to kill your guy. Your hand size stays the same).

  6. #26
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It's not really the damage-surprise factor that matters. It's the "lol you lost deathtouch and your Strix/Ice-Fang, and I draw a card, and [insert dude] survives" factor.
    These are just additionally useful modes. The card has many useful modes. Unlocking Dreadnoughts, nullifying the opponent's creatures, etc. "1U Win the game" is just another useful mode when opponent is below 14 life and didn't block.

    Edit: Say both you and opponent are at 10 life. You attack with 3/3 Shadow. You have 2 mana open. What does opponent do? Opponent has to play around Dress Down or risks losing the game right here. They can't let the 3/3 through. They have to flash in Ice-Fang to block, or they block with something and activate Mother of Runes, or they chump block with something else. The problem is these scenarios are also bad for the opponent if you flash in Dress Down, walking into 2-for-0s and such. Or maybe you don't have Dress Down at all but they still frantically burn cantrips looking for an answer. These are all favorable positions to be in. Whereas you can't force the opponent into this corner without the threat of a 1-hit kill. When your 1-hit kill combo fail case is a 2-for-2 the downside is low.

  7. #27

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    These are just additionally useful modes. The card has many useful modes. Unlocking Dreadnoughts, nullifying the opponent's creatures, etc. "1U Win the game" is just another useful mode when opponent is below 14 life and didn't block.

    Edit: Say both you and opponent are at 10 life. You attack with 3/3 Shadow. You have 2 mana open. What does opponent do? Opponent has to play around Dress Down or risks losing the game right here. They can't let the 3/3 through. They have to flash in Ice-Fang to block, or they block with something and activate Mother of Runes, or they chump block with something else. The problem is these scenarios are also bad for the opponent if you flash in Dress Down, walking into 2-for-0s and such. Or maybe you don't have Dress Down at all but they still frantically burn cantrips looking for an answer. These are all favorable positions to be in. Whereas you can't force the opponent into this corner without the threat of a 1-hit kill. When your 1-hit kill combo fail case is a 2-for-2 the downside is low.
    Very well said. You explained this better I could.

  8. #28

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    The main deck does not need or benefit too much from splashing white. Teferi3 is nice but not essential, and sticking UG lets me play around Wasteland much easier.

    I initially played white because the color opened up so many great options for the sideboard (Rest in Peace and Karakas most significantly), however, between the utility offered by Urza's Saga allowing me to grab my maindeck Pithing Needle (in the flex slot currently) or my sideboard 1 mana artifact silver bullets, and the excellent graveyard hate offer by Endurance (green's Leyline of the Void), there is no longer any advantage to splashing white.

    My current list after a long day testing various iterations on MTGO looks as below...

    4 Wasteland

    4 Misty Rainforest

    3 Prismatic Vista

    3 Tropical Island

    3 Snow-Covered Island

    2 Snow-Covered Forest



    4 Stifle

    4 Dress Down



    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    2 Noble Hierarch

    2 Ice-Fang Coatl

    2 Brazen Borrower

    1 Sylvan Library



    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    4 Daze

    4 Force of Will

    1 Force of Negation

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



    Sideboard:

    1 Flusterstorm

    1 Blue Elemental Blast

    1 Force of Negation

    1 Brazen Borrower

    1 Wilt

    1 Sylvan Safekeeper

    2 Veil of Summer

    2 Collector Ouphe

    2 Carpet of Flowers

    3 Endurance


    The list is now final (though the sideboard may change once I see how the meta evolves due to MH2). The sideboard is full of silver bullets because the maindeck itself is very tight, so you will often find yourself not wanting to side too much out. The sideboard cards are self explanatory (Brazen Borrower is the MVP vs Marit Lage strategies).

    Dress Down and Endurance are both phenomenal cards. Endurance is fantastic against various combo lists and against u/r Delver as well. It is a flash creature that profitably blocks Delver, Channeler, Ragavan, Whale and survives, while simultaneously emptying their graveyard to shrink their Goyfs, neuter their Snapcasters and make their Delve cards much harder to cast. When brought in versus fast combo decks, it should be sided in along with Collector Ouphe, Veil of Summer, Wilt and either Sylvan Safekeeper or Carpet of Flowers (if they play islands) to ensure that the list has atleast 14 green cards (along with instant speed Brainstorms to find them) to pitch to Endurance when needed. But against Delver, the evoke mode is almost never needed.

    Dress Down is absolutely incredible in it's utility. Most games you will want to cast it during your opponent's end step to draw a card, and plop down multiple Dreadnoughts and/or Uros. But the card has more important uses against Thassa's Oracle based strategies.

    This may well be the list that finally gets Uro banned in legacy. It absolutely is the list that will make Dreadnought a mainstream player in the format. The deck really is that strong, and I look forward to many other legacy players discovering this for themselves.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-05-2021 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Updated list to include the Brazen Borrowers I added to the board to help defeat Marit Lage.

  9. #29
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    How's the deck doing? Any MTGO League 5-0s yet? Thinking of entering the next Challenge?

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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    This may well be the list that finally gets Uro banned in legacy. It absolutely is the list that will make Dreadnought a mainstream player in the format. The deck really is that strong, and I look forward to many other legacy players discovering this for themselves.
    So uh, Uro by itself as a 1-card combo with recursion - that is technically enough to get Uro banned. That it has limited crossover with Dreadnought doesn't change the assessment of Uro. Dreadnought, and Standstill, decks are not mainstream players because more than anything else, we don't have pilots. We lost all of them in early 2012, and they're not coming back; not even if your list has the card (Uro) that they're all using now. Right at this moment, most of the lost pilots are likely playing UR Delver, but once they get tired of losing to someone playing normal Uro deck [plus or minus the coming Ragavan or Daze ban] they will themselves return to normal Uro deck until a better 1-card combo is printed.

    There is very little risk involved in having a stack of counters, kill spells, recursion, and few slots of a 1-card combo wincon. This fraction of players isn't going to come back to specialize on a deck with higher power plus higher variance, not even if the Stifle effect cantrips. What you should expect though, given that those jokers put Torpor Orb in the SBs of Uro piles, is that if Endurance fails to save them vs Thassa, they will just SB Dress Down in their Uro pile.

    If we're being honest about the style of your list, your target pilot is someone who plays maverick-style decks. This is a notoriously hard demographic to headhunt pilots from, as these players often do not have blue dual lands in paper. You do have this timing window where the 4x Trop owners just got their deck ended by the rules update [Infect], but you have a play pattern mismatch, and are unlikely to generate lasting interest here.

  11. #31
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There is very little risk involved in having a stack of counters, kill spells, recursion, and few slots of a 1-card combo wincon. This fraction of players isn't going to come back to specialize on a deck with higher power plus higher variance, not even if the Stifle effect cantrips. What you should expect though, given that those jokers put Torpor Orb in the SBs of Uro piles, is that if Endurance fails to save them vs Thassa, they will just SB Dress Down in their Uro pile.
    This.

    NotVaka.dec will also win games just by playing UG good stuff


    //Creatures: 8
    3 Ice-Fang Coatl
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Endurance

    //Spells: 18
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Abundant Harvest
    2 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 3
    3 Sylvan Library

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //White cards or Black cards: 7
    0-7 white cards
    0-7 black cards

    //Lands: 20
    1 Karakas
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2-3 other fetches
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    2-3 other lands for splash


    Yeah, sure instead of white cards and some walkers you could play 4 Stifle + 4 Dreadnought + 4 Dress Down (and Wastelands as the splash lands) and the rest of the pile will still do its thing enough to win games. But this doubles down on needing to race with Nought/Uro because you can't really remove what the opponent makes.

  12. #32

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Regarding playing UG good stuff, a big crux of Vaka Nought is the Wasteland, Daze, Stifle package combined with Dress Down, Dreadnought and an Escape creature. You mana screw your opponent for a turn or two and beat them down with a 12/12 or a Titan while they are still trying to rebuild. What you posted is indeed NotVaka.dec and I believe that it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as the Vaka Nought shell due to lacking this mana disruption element.

    I am not saying UG is the best direction for Vaka Nought. The core of the deck is 4 Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down, 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 3-4 Wasteland and either 4 Uro or 2 Kroxa + either Gurmag Angler or Death's Shadow, but a splash is never out of question.

    I have also been toying around with and having a great experience with Bant Vaka Nought due to how rock solid Prismatic Ending ended up being maindeck and how awesome Serenity and Knight of Autumn in the sideboard have been with all the affinity running around post MH2...

    The current iteration that I am playing looks like this, but the list is still being tweaked...


    Bant Vaka Nought 1.0

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Tundra
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 Ice-Fang Coatl
    1 Brazen Borrower

    Sideboard:
    3 Endurance
    2 Knight of Autumn
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Serenity
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Knight of Autumn
    4 Flex Slots

    I am still tweaking the sideboard but will post an update once I am done. The reason for all the 1 ofs is because I am still testing, all the 1 of cards have been good so I dont know which are the best of the best in the new meta.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How's the deck doing? Any MTGO League 5-0s yet? Thinking of entering the next Challenge?
    No I have not 5-0ed yet. I played three leagues with the UG version, went 4-1 my first league, and then went 3-2 twice when everyone started playing Affinity and Delver due to MH2 until I had a chance to go up on my Null Rod effects and Endurance. I played pretty well my first league, but frequently made play errors due to misunderstand the MH2 cards that lost me 1-2 matches in both the latter leagues. I also actually have limited experience with MTGO (only started it due to pandemic) and my laptop is super old and finicky (frequently makes misyields or misclicks, incorrectly double click an function key and even crashes on occasion which is incredibly annoying). As such I dont feel great about spending a bunch of money on challenges until I test and tweak the bant version, understand the MH2 meta better and ideally also get a better setup to play mtgo on and gain more experience with the client. I mostly play in the practice room or the occasional 2 player que and I win most of the games I play but I know the environment in the practice room is no where near as competitive as a challenge.

    I played enough to come to realize that this deck is very very good, was probably tier 1 before MH2 became widely adopted but right now mainly just needs some adjustments to deal with the new stuff from MH2 to reemerge as a Tier 1 predator again. I'm indeed retrying the White splash because Prismatic Ending is just wonderful in Vaka Nought and Knight of Autumn and Serenity have been fantastic in the sideboard in the new meta.

  13. #33
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Regarding playing UG good stuff, a big crux of Vaka Nought is the Wasteland, Daze, Stifle package combined with Dress Down, Dreadnought and an Escape creature. You mana screw your opponent for a turn or two and beat them down with a 12/12 or a Titan while they are still trying to rebuild. What you posted is indeed NotVaka.dec and I believe that it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as the Vaka Nought shell due to lacking this mana disruption element.
    NotVaka.dek is basically AnziD's Bant control (fill flex slots with white removal), +/- a few slots. 2nd place in Saturday's Legacy Challenge.
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...anzid_nd_place

    These pre-MH2 Bant Control Top8s are similar too:
    https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=883&meta=39&f=LE

    The UGx "good stuff" shell is already a proven top tier deck in Legacy.

    Do you have the results to backup that that's not anywhere near as effective as Vaka Nought?

    I have no doubt that Vaka will get wins, but it's worth noticing that most UGx piles will get some wins just by playing Forces, cantrips, Sylvan, Uro, Jace...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    No I have not 5-0ed yet. I played three leagues with the UG version, went 4-1 my first league, and then went 3-2 twice when everyone started playing Affinity and Delver due to MH2 until I had a chance to go up on my Null Rod effects and Endurance.
    4-1 is pretty good. Keep playing, see if you can 5-0 a league. If you think this is much better than the control version with the mana denial and Stiflenought package, enter a challenge and see how it does!

  14. #34

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    BoshNRoll plays Vaka Nought!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    Highly recommend watching the video of the league before reading further. Game one is absolutely hilarious and is blisteringly fast. BoshNRoll provides fantastic commentary and explanations as always. And he is absolutely one of the best magic players out there, inspite of a minor mistake that seems to have cost him the 5-0 (dazing the dark ritual against oops would have led to a 5-0, and there was no reason not to since the opponent already cast summoner’s pact), is an absolute delight to watch and learn from.

    Several posters wanted to read about or watch a mtgo league of Vaka Nought in action. I thought it would be cool to be able to share gameplay footage. Unfortunately, technical limitations of my decade old laptop and it’s frequent crashes which have cost me multiple matches (apple user so not great with fixing windows mtgo bugs) has made that impossible, so I went back to the practice rooms and donated to BoshNRoll to take one of the Vaka Nought iterations through a magic online league to be able to share some cool gameplay and inspire discussion here.

    What makes this dreadnought deck unique is that the card neutrality and versatility of dress down and the resilience of Uro make it very easy to switch to a midrange game plan if plan A fails, and also to transform into a full midrange deck postboard against control decks that simply pack too many answers for plan A to work. Earlier Dreadnought lists lost to control, where as this deck is able to pivot to a decent matchup against control. The video does a great job showing this.

    The list BoshNRoll played is the Simic Version that I had submitted (I had also submitted a Bant and a Grixis version and asked him to pick and tweak his favorite list, but I really loved that the simic version could be built without dual lands, simply by replacing the tropical islands with a prismatic vista and an additonal snow covered island)…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    Vaka Nought – Simic

    3 Wasteland

    1 Urza’s Saga

    2 Snow-Covered Forest

    3 Snow-Covered Island

    3 Tropical Island

    3 Prismatic Vista

    4 Misty Rainforest

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    2 Noble Hierarch

    2 Brazen Borrower

    1 Ice-Fang Coatl

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    2 Sylvan Library

    4 Dress Down

    4 Stifle

    4 Daze

    4 Force of Will

    1 Force of Negation

    Sideboard:

    3 Endurance

    2 Veil of Summer

    2 Carpet of Flowers

    1 Wilt

    1 Collector Ouphe

    1 Sylvan Safekeeper

    1 Flusterstorm

    1 Blue Elemental Blast

    1 Null Rod

    1 Pithing Needle

    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    The video speaks for itself. It was a very competitive league but the only game lost the whole league was due to a minor misread/misplay vs. No Land Spy which ironically enough happens to be among Vaka Nought’s most favorable matchups (8 maindeck Stifle and Dress Down are a nightmare for Thassa’s Oracle based decks). Otherwise BoshNRoll played as amazing as he always does. It was fun watching him take gameplay lines that I wouldnt have considered, such as casting a sylvan library at 1:05 to draw out a suspected abrupt decay instead of casting dress down at the end of your opponents turn two so that you could slam two Dreadnoughts the following turn as I would have done to try to save the Stifle for a potentional Liliana downtick or Deed activation later in the game.


    But as powerful and budget friendly as the Simic version is, I had since switched back to the Bant version due to how powerful Prismatic Ending has been…

    Vaka Nought - Bant

    4 Wasteland

    4 Misty Rainforest

    4 Flooded Strand

    2 Snow-Covered Island

    1 Snow-Covered Forest

    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    1 Tundra

    2 Tropical Island

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    2 Noble Hierarch

    1 Ice-Fang Coatl

    1 Brazen Borrower

    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    4 Stifle

    4 Dress Down

    4 Daze

    4 Force of Will

    3 Prismatic Ending

    1 Swords to Plowshares

    1 Sylvan Library

    Sideboard:

    3 Endurance

    2 Knight of Autumn

    2 Carpet of Flowers

    1 Serenity

    1 Force of Negation

    1 Mystical Dispute

    1 Brazen Borrower

    1 Collector Ouphe

    1 Containment Priest

    1 Mother of Runes

    1 Swords to Plowshares

    The above are the two tuned and refined lists of Vaka Nought, but I have a lot more fun toying around with Grixis Vaka Nought...

    Vaka Nought - Grixis

    4 Wasteland

    4 Polluted Delta

    4 Scalding Tarn

    2 Underground Sea

    2 Volcanic Island

    1 Badlands

    1 Island

    4 Thoughtseize

    4 Daze

    4 Force of Will

    4 Stifle

    4 Dress Down

    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    1-2 Reanimate

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    8 Creatures from the below choices…

    Dragon’s Rage Channeler + Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas for consistent delirium

    Death’s Shadow +/- Street Wraits (Shadow seems to work better as a 1-2 of midgame bomb in a build with 0-1 shocks instead of as a 4 of paried with multiple wraiths and shocks)

    Either Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger or Gurmag Angler possibly paired with Ragavan instead of Channeler (Kroxa is fantastic with Dress Down and Stifle but competes with Channeler for the yard a bit, but not really a nonbo the way that Angler + Channeler are)

    Have not had a chance to test Ragavan or Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant bur those could take up some slots.

    4 Ragavan + 3 Kroxa + 1-2 Deaths Shadows as a random midgame bomb might end up being correct.

    My current build runs 4 Dragon’s Rage Channelers along with Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas to find Dreadnought while maximizing your enchantment and artifact count to ensure consistent delirium and 2 Kroxa despite the slight dis synergy between Channeler and Escape cards. Channeler has exceeded my expectations by serving double duty as both a threat and a way to dig for key cards faster. Its almost like a mini sylvan library strapped to the back of a delver.

    The Grixis list is in flux but all the synergies are a lot of fun. Death’s Shadow briefly becomes a 13/13 when you cast Dress Down and Kroxa, similar to Uro, can be stifled, or it could be cast during a turn that you have Dress Down on the board. A 2 mana value Kroxa is superior to a 3 mana value Uro in situations where you no longer need to pay a 4 mana escape cost the next turn.

    Or if you want to get super spicy and build the whole deck around Urza’s Saga, you can even go mono blue and keep the deck very budget friendly while retaining its competitiveness(still in early development)…

    Vaka Nought – Mono Blue

    4 Urza’s Saga

    4 Polluted Delta

    4 Scalding Tarn

    4 Snow-Covered Island

    3 Island

    1 Mystic Sanctuary

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4 Delver of Secrets

    3 Brazen Borrower

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    2 Subtlety (Test slot, might be better off as Preordain, Standstill or Flusterstorm)

    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    1 Mishra’s Bauble/Hope of Ghirapur

    1 Pithing Needle/Shadowspear

    4 Stifle

    4 Dress Down

    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    4 Force of Will

    1 Force of Negation

    1 Preordain

    I recommend the Bant version of Vaka Nought personally if you want a tuned consistent list with lots of answers and the ability to grind out of most any situation, but the other iterations are very powerful and imo the Kroxa version is actually more fun to watch, play and play against. So if others here agree, I am open to discussing, and working on testing or tweaking kroxa nought built around channeler, or donating to thrabenu or boshnroll to be share some gameplay of my current lists in action.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-15-2021 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #35
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Congrats on the results. BoshNRoll did well with it.

    This metagame seems good for UGx in general. Uro and Endurance crush what UR Delver is trying to do, Prismatic Ending is versatile, and the Xerox package crushes most of the rest of the format.

    NotVaka.dek got 1st place on Saturday's Legacy Challenge & 2nd place on Sunday's Challenge:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ndias_st_place
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...leofa_nd_place

    Same UGw list as I had above with:
    -1 white removal, -1 Sylvan, +2 EE (metagaming vs Affinity)
    -1 Jace + 1 Narset (same walkers, just different split)
    -1 Abundant Harvest, -1 Karakas, +1 Endurance +1 Ice-Fang (greedier with threats, less mana)

    In your list, is Ice-Fang that good as a 1-of? You could just be running more white removal spells in the Bant version.
    How good is Hierarch as a 2-of instead of 4-of? Not consistent enough to give T1 mana acceleration. The main value seems to be surprise factor, getting opponent to waste removal on it before they know you're not Maverick.

  16. #36

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Congrats on the results. BoshNRoll did well with it.

    This metagame seems good for UGx in general. Uro and Endurance crush what UR Delver is trying to do, Prismatic Ending is versatile, and the Xerox package crushes most of the rest of the format.

    NotVaka.dek got 1st place on Saturday's Legacy Challenge & 2nd place on Sunday's Challenge:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ndias_st_place
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...leofa_nd_place

    Same UGw list as I had above with:
    -1 white removal, -1 Sylvan, +2 EE (metagaming vs Affinity)
    -1 Jace + 1 Narset (same walkers, just different split)
    -1 Abundant Harvest, -1 Karakas, +1 Endurance +1 Ice-Fang (greedier with threats, less mana)

    In your list, is Ice-Fang that good as a 1-of? You could just be running more white removal spells in the Bant version.
    How good is Hierarch as a 2-of instead of 4-of? Not consistent enough to give T1 mana acceleration. The main value seems to be surprise factor, getting opponent to waste removal on it before they know you're not Maverick.
    Yeah, Bant got a huge upgrade thanks to Endurance and Prismatic Ending. Not surprised the deck is doing well. I was blown away by endurance and drawn to how you no longer needed white for the sake of sideboard rest in peace, that I eagerly went from bant to simic two weeks ago and submitted that list to BoshNRoll to play as the finalized list.

    Its only a few days letter when I got around to testing Prismatic Ending that I saw how amazing that card is in the bant version but I already finalized the list by then.

    Dreadnought got a huge upgrade with Dress Down and I think the lists incorporating all of these new additions will thrive in the current meta. The another huge pro from white is serenity vs artifact decks, and knight against all nonaggro decks.

    The rule of thumb for me is that I never play 4 copies of cards that I dislike seeing multiples of in the same game, unless they are win conditions that are a magnet for removal/counters/discard.

    Ice Fang is perfect as a 1-2 of. You almost never want to see multiple in a game as its not a finisher, and its a far better card when it shows up midgame, once you have enough snow lands that it gains deathtouch and thus can kill most anything.

    Hierarch is absolute trash in multiples in my experience, but solid when it does show up, as it draws removal, pitches to Endurance or helps escape uro. So I find it works best as a 2 of.

    I also care more about fun and variety than winning, which is why I frequently swap between different deck and prefer to build decks with lots of 1-2 ofs in my lists and sideboards. Thats also why I donated to BoshNRoll to play the funner list, kroxa nought even if it wont be as competitive or as likely to 5-0 as the bant list above.

  17. #37

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Just wanted to share my current test list with the Grixis version...

    Vaka Nought - Surveil Version

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Kroxa
    1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
    1-2 Ragavan (Test Slots, could instead go to Force of Negation or Flusterstorm or Drown in the Loch or Preordain or to a different threat such as Death's Shadow or Delver of Secrets or to Urza's Saga targets like Soul Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle)

    0-1 Urza's Saga
    3-4 Wasteland
    1 Badlands
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn

    The above list is the one that is the current focus of development, as the Bant and Simic versions feel really good where they are right now.

    Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability and boot strapping it to Channeler and Lazav made it very abusable.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-17-2021 at 02:16 AM.

  18. #38
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    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    I'm not a big fan of Kroxa, but I like that this is overall lower to the ground than your UGx deck with more low cmc pressure to punish opponent after you catch them with mana denial. I recommend 2-4 Ragavan. The card is amazing in a Daze deck.

    I notice you're running 0 removal despite these colors having such great removal. Do you have room for Lightning Bolt? It does so many things like remove early problems and help finish races.

    Edit: I'd be tempted to try this


    //Creatures: 12
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer

    //Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    3 Expressive Iteration
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Dress Down

    //Lands: 20
    1 Urza's Saga
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    2 Mountain
    4 Wasteland


    Standstill should be strong here because you have so many insane 1 mana threats, but it might be better as Expressive Iteration since this can't really support the Dreadstill plan.

    Mana denial should be strong for the same reasons. Dress Down removing enemy creature abilities helps deal with things Bolt can't kill.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-17-2021 at 08:13 AM.

  19. #39

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I'm not a big fan of Kroxa, but I like that this is overall lower to the ground than your UGx deck with more low cmc pressure to punish opponent after you catch them with mana denial. I recommend 2-4 Ragavan. The card is amazing in a Daze deck.

    I notice you're running 0 removal despite these colors having such great removal. Do you have room for Lightning Bolt? It does so many things like remove early problems and help finish races.

    Edit: I'd be tempted to try this


    //Creatures: 12
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer

    //Spells: 21
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 7
    4 Standstill
    3 Dress Down

    //Lands: 20
    1 Urza's Saga
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    2 Mountain
    4 Wasteland


    Standstill should be strong here because you have so many insane 1 mana threats. Mana denial should be strong for the same reasons. Dress Down removing enemy creature abilities helps deal with things Bolt can't kill.
    I like it, it looks like a solid plan. Its been a while since I played around with Standstill but DRC being so synergic with Dreadnought and Lazav and also 1cc is exactly the kind of thing needed to make Standstill work. I am not sold that Standstill is needed in the deck but if you want to make Standstill work, that’s a fine way to do it.

    I would recommend...
    +3-4 Ponder
    -1 Standstill
    -1 Bolt
    -1 FoW/FoN/Daze

    Or alternatively by cutting both Ragavan and Urza’s Saga.

    Or adding a black splash like I did for Thoughtseizes, a Kroxa and a Lazav or two just because they work really well with Surveil and either protect the win con or advance the game plan.

    Ponder is already a fantastic card, but it really shines alongside DRC.

    I tried Bolt and even Push, and Bolt especially was decent but not great so I ended up dropping it. It neither advanced the primary game plan nor protected the Dreadnought, and it sometimes messes with your opponents gameplan but sometimes they could care less about it. Its a solid versatile card and definitely promising in the sideboard so its never going to be bad, but I would be inclined to play it in place of cards that play a similar role, such as a Daze or Thoughtseize, instead of in place of synergetic threats.

    Yeah Kroxa is no Uro or Dreadnought. The latter threats are definitely superior but its impossible to come up with a consistent manabase that can accommodate Uro alongside both DRC and Lazav and the surveil synergies are just so damn powerful. Kroxa is on color and synergizes so well with the rest of the deck, that its worth it as a 1-2 of. It has won me a decent number of games just by being a 6/6 titan that you can cheat out in multiple ways for just 2 mana, that also happens to bolt your opponent to the face when cast or escaped and does a great job of applying pressure while being bigger than anything on your opponents half of the board.

  20. #40

    Re: Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Ti

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Yeah Kroxa is no Uro or Dreadnought. The latter threats are definitely superior but its impossible to come up with a consistent manabase that can accommodate Uro alongside both DRC and Lazav and the surveil synergies are just so damn powerful.
    I've put together a Temur List that manages to pair Uro with DRC and Ragavan. It's still very early but the list seems to be working well despite my concerns about the manabase...

    Vaka Nought - Temur (aka. Dress Naughty)

    4 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Snow Covered Island
    1 Snow Covered Forest
    1 Snow Covered Mountain
    1 Prismatic Vista

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation

    Sideboard:
    1 Abrade
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Wilt
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Endurance

    It's still early and the manabase and some of the cards might need tweaking.

    It looks very similar to Temur Delver but it's a misdirect of sorts. Your opponents will think they are playing vs Delver and will heavily focus on countering or killing DRC/Ragavan asap, and will expect Lightning Bolt and will thus value their life total highly when casting Ad Nauseam or utilizing Sylvan Library. In doing so, your smaller threats really function to draw out removal and counterspells that would have otherwise hit your Dreadnought or Uro. Your smaller threats also all generate pseudo card advantage (DRC's surveil trigger helps you dig for your Dress Downs while filling up your yard for Uro, meanwhile Ragavan makes treasure tokens and lets you cast your opponents cantrips to help dig for combo pieces). They also serve to ping at your opponents life total so that a single swing with the Dreadnoughts and Uros wins the game.

    The one weakness with this approach is that the only interaction that you have game one with your opponent's game plan is Daze, Force, Brazen, Stifle, Wasteland and Dress Down (against specific matchups). Postboard, you have quite a bit more interaction with your opponent.

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