WotC Ending Pro Play Discussion

[Ronald Deuce]

That article was maximum cringe. Simply incredible. And check out this comment by Michael Flores:

Someone: "The Pro Tour was a playground for the privileged. Let’s focus on opening the gates and letting more people play."

Weird statement, but ok. Michael blesses us with this amazing response:
"How do you figure? My generation (just a tad older than Zvi) was a spawing ground for complete and utter excellence across a dizzying breadth of disciplines."

You can't make this stuff up.

I wasn't sure whether the response was satire at first. I kind of wish it had been. The arrogance and obliviousness (in both the article and Flores's patently self-aggrandizing and tangential post) isn't just palpable; it's tangible.

Then again, if we aspire to their level of logical thinking and reason, maybe we should all just form a new, less wrong pro-league. It wouldn't be a spawning ground for complete and utter solipsism across a dizzying breadth of disciplines.

[TsumiBand]

My face after I got through Zvi's article:


"How will anyone know what good cards are without pros?" Yeah man you got it, I bet in 6 months no one will be able to figure out who's beatdown and in a year we'll all forget what card advantage is. Sheer fucking hubris.

[kirkusjones]

”I don't expect Magic: The Gathering professionals to save the world, but as a group they're in my top five by probability for who might do such saving should the world get saved, and I wouldn't think that about the counterfactual people who would have been such professionals.”

Reads a lot like:

"Being a Scientologist, when you drive past an accident it's not like anyone else. As you drive past you know you have to do something about it because you know you're the only one who can help,"

Side note: rationalist pro-player who strives to be the best needs an editor, because good lord was that a slog.

[Michael Keller]

Reads a lot like:

Side note: rationalist pro-player who strives to be the best needs an editor, because good lord was that a slog.

All-in:

I quit playing Magic over a year ago after playing for almost 27 years and haven't looked back and don't miss the game itself a bit. I always said there was "no such thing" as a "pro" Magic player (through steadfast dissent), and that has finally come to fruition. Because the truth is: it's always been true. The "Pro Tour" was just a 20-something's dream of being young, traveling and playing cards with a desire to stand out amongst their peers with some monetary compensation - and that's fine. Magic: the Gathering is a playing card game that - even the most skilled and gifted players that have eschewed other responsibilities in their lives to play - can't afford to make a living off of unless they have a store or something to that ilk.

I couldn't help but laugh and read how delusional these people are, most in all likelhood narcissistic (you can just tell in their writing). I was even guilty myself of this at one point being way too caught up in it. You see this today more on social media, which has turned into a subscription war of elitists, narcissists, etc. I also believe a large number of these players - especially ones from a time when I played in the 90s where it was more "wild west" - cheated at a disturbing rate. I still stand by my opinion that there are a number of what were considered "non" pro players over the last 25 years that would beat these people in a two out of three set, and that to me - in addition to variance - disqualifies anyone from being above the game.

Now people that hugged that dream of being a "pro" Magic player have to face the harsh reality (lol) of life that Magic isn't everything, nor should it be. Read a book. Go for a walk. Do something productive. Get a certification. Get an education. Do your civic duty or something for your community.

[Rob Hack]

All-in:

I quit playing Magic over a year ago after playing for almost 27 years and haven't looked back and don't miss the game itself a bit. I always said there was "no such thing" as a "pro" Magic player (through steadfast dissent), and that has finally come to fruition. Because the truth is: it's always been true. The "Pro Tour" was just a 20-something's dream of being young, traveling and playing cards with a desire to stand out amongst their peers with some monetary compensation - and that's fine. Magic: the Gathering is a playing card game that - even the most skilled and gifted players that have eschewed other responsibilities in their lives to play - can't afford to make a living off of unless they have a store or something to that ilk.

I couldn't help but laugh and read how delusional these people are, most in all likelhood narcissistic (you can just tell in their writing). I was even guilty myself of this at one point being way too caught up in it. You see this today more on social media, which has turned into a subscription war of elitists, narcissists, etc. I also believe a large number of these players - especially ones from a time when I played in the 90s where it was more "wild west" - cheated at a disturbing rate. I still stand by my opinion that there are a number of what were considered "non" pro players over the last 25 years that would beat these people in a two out of three set, and that to me - in addition to variance - disqualifies anyone from being above the game.

Now people that hugged that dream of being a "pro" Magic player have to face the harsh reality (lol) of life that Magic isn't everything, nor should it be. Read a book. Go for a walk. Do something productive. Get a certification. Get an education. Do your civic duty or something for your community.

I don't like your post. I can agree with it partially, for example with the "read how delusional these people are, most in all likelihood narcissistic", but I cannot agree with the whole of it.

I sense bitterness in your post, and I understand that after leaving Magic after nearly three decades you've spent with it, you can be sad. But at least the ending of your post is a bit too much. "Do something productive. Get a certification." So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to not enjoy their hobby and to not even try to follow their dream, but rather join the rat race asap? "Do your civic duty or something for your community." Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're German, right? Which civic duty is there left for an inhabitant of an occupied country? And for that matter: which civic duty is honest and deserving of respect in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world?

Also, if you left Magic, why do you continue to post about it? And this is not a mere provocative question. If you still feel some kind of a bond with a game that used to be beautiful, interesting, and thrilling, then there are still some options left for you to enjoy it. Some of the casual/nostalgic formats look really nice, and contrary to modern Legacy (or modern Magic in general), they are much cheaper, much more aesthetically appealing, and they miss the most annoying design aspects of the past twenty years.

[Ahab]

I don't like your post. I can agree with it partially, for example with the "read how delusional these people are, most in all likelihood narcissistic", but I cannot agree with the whole of it.

I sense bitterness in your post, and I understand that after leaving Magic after nearly three decades you've spent with it, you can be sad. But at least the ending of your post is a bit too much. "Do something productive. Get a certification." So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to not enjoy their hobby and to not even try to follow their dream, but rather join the rat race asap? "Do your civic duty or something for your community." Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're German, right? Which civic duty is there left for an inhabitant of an occupied country? And for that matter: which civic duty is honest and deserving of respect in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world?

Also, if you left Magic, why do you continue to post about it? And this is not a mere provocative question. If you still feel some kind of a bond with a game that used to be beautiful, interesting, and thrilling, then there are still some options left for you to enjoy it. Some of the casual/nostalgic formats look really nice, and contrary to modern Legacy (or modern Magic in general), they are much cheaper, much more aesthetically appealing, and they miss the most annoying design aspects of the past twenty years.

Germany is not occupied, or maybe I don't get the reference.
I think MK's points are quite good. It is very important to reevaluate your relationship with your habits every once in a while. Being productive might be a economically sounding phrase, but it's more about being aware of what you want to do with your life and acting accordingly. And yes, I am telling a 20 year old that his dream of becoming a magic pro is probably an illusion. Playing magic as a hobby is way less intense than being a 'pro'. If your dream truly is to be a pro: fine. But I think a lot of people are kidn of manipulated into it.

So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?

Making sure people do not persue their dreams is praxis.

[Rob Hack]

Germany is not occupied, or maybe I don't get the reference.

Then lets agree to disagree.

I think MK's points are quite good. It is very important to reevaluate your relationship with your habits every once in a while. Being productive might be a economically sounding phrase, but it's more about being aware of what you want to do with your life and acting accordingly. And yes, I am telling a 20 year old that his dream of becoming a magic pro is probably an illusion. Playing magic as a hobby is way less intense than being a 'pro'. If your dream truly is to be a pro: fine. But I think a lot of people are kind of manipulated into it.

You are absolutely right, but there's more to "being productive" then just standing by the conveyor belt twelve hours a day. And there are people who's only choice is either a miserable life of a loser or a risky path of a sportsmen, entertainer, or Magic player. For every one thousand men who's dreams didn't become true, there's one man who had what it takes to succeed.
Yes, Magic:pro is probably an illusion. But with determinance, intelligence, and luck, you can succeed. If you set your goals, if you have a willpower, and if you also have strength to constantly reevaluate what you're doing, you can become a pro, at least if you understand that there's more to be done than "testing" decks in your lgs while drinking beer. You need results, you need to learn languages, and you need to trade well. I know teenage millionares (ok, maybe just hundred-thousanders, but you get the point), who got to where they are simply by Magic. And their lives would be much different, and much more poor, if they didn't embark on a dream journey, and rather went to the indoctrination centers formally known as universities, or got themselves welder's license or whatever.

So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?

But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

[TsumiBand]

Then lets agree to disagree.


You are absolutely right, but there's more to "being productive" then just standing by the conveyor belt twelve hours a day. And there are people who's only choice is either a miserable life of a loser or a risky path of a sportsmen, entertainer, or Magic player. For every one thousand men who's dreams didn't become true, there's one man who had what it takes to succeed.
Yes, Magic:pro is probably an illusion. But with determinance, intelligence, and luck, you can succeed. If you set your goals, if you have a willpower, and if you also have strength to constantly reevaluate what you're doing, you can become a pro, at least if you understand that there's more to be done than "testing" decks in your lgs while drinking beer. You need results, you need to learn languages, and you need to trade well. I know teenage millionares (ok, maybe just hundred-thousanders, but you get the point), who got to where they are simply by Magic. And their lives would be much different, and much more poor, if they didn't embark on a dream journey, and rather went to the indoctrination centers formally known as universities, or got themselves welder's license or whatever.



But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

lol holy shit

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

pharmakomaffia

[Ronald Deuce]

This is great!

[the Thin White Duke]

But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

I like your style, bro. I don't know if anyone else here knows what the "MIC" is, though. Welcome to The Source.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like your style, bro. I don't know if anyone else here knows what the "MIC" is, though. Welcome to The Source.

Lol, governments don't pay for anything. What nineteenth century nonsense is this??

[TsumiBand]

I liked it better when threads derailed into the Reprint Policy, now I gotta spend my energy wondering if my humble pursuits in life are low-key enabling the military-industrial complex and Big Pharma. Sadge

[Rob Hack]

Wow, so many convincing arguments, I officially declare myself defeated.

Seriously guys, are you such a band of unimaginative old farts or is it just some 19th century conservative attitude? Do you also wear sideburns?

I got buddies who not only played MtG on a solid enough level to fly all over the world (for their expense), but who also thought ahead and didn't worry to take risks. Through sheer willpower and self-confidence they acquired large collections of cardboard gold, are completely (or mostly) financially independent, some of them either started their own lgs or work abroad (even as far as Japan). They also gained lots of contacts and valuable insight into economics and law ("sorry madam, I didn't know that Cardracket isn't exempted from taxes, but I'm also sixteen, so you're more than welcome to suck my dick"), while playing the game they like.

I seriously don't understand what's so hard to understand that every successful person is a testimony to success. If you cannot stomach the fact that some people got money by MtG profiteering, at least acknowledge that they exist. Would I recommend to a 20-something youngster to try this? Eh... depends. If she's willing to take it seriously, and if she understands the risks involved, and if her goals are reasonable, hell yeah, go for it. Just do remember that you cannot just fly from GP to GP, collect miserable top64's and call it a success. Unless you're moving towards a real, tangible goal, this means nothing.

This said, I also think that the time window for this kind of risk ended roughly ten years ago. Five years at the latest. With nowadays prices (and obviously the flu situation), a Magic pro dream is absurd.

Btw, my most favourite story closely related to this theme is that of Kirby Dodd, son of Sandra Dodd, the famous unschooler. You may read about him here: https://sandradodd.com/math/unerzogen namely about his journey from being an unschooled 14-yo guy playing Magic in lgs to heading team in Blizzard.

Welcome to The Source.

Thanks.

[TsumiBand]

Lmao my guy, I don't think anyone actually disagrees hard with your main argument, you're just hedging it with weird stuff like agreeing to disagree that Germany is an occupied country and choice phrases like "pharmakomaffia"

I mean I took shots at Zvi for being a douchecaster mage already, my stance on this pro tour stuff is pretty clear. It only ever came about because they were trying to get creative about ways around their Reprint Policy and the whole idea of "let's have a rotating format and convince people to play it by creating a pro tour so kids will want to play the same decks as the pros" was born. I dislike the RP and it's pillars, hence I don't care much for what happens to the Pro Tour. Good riddance.

We usually do just fine talking about Magic without roping in all this tertiary stuff, but also, the language hints at a lot of spicy takes that end up getting threads ubermodded and closed.

I'll try to get us back on topic *clears throat* PROMISORY ESTOPPEL

[Purple Blood]

But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

I like the cut of your jib.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seriously guys, are you such a band of unimaginative old farts or is it just some 19th century conservative attitude? Do you also wear sideburns?

Aren't you the guy who said I, a citizen, pay for everything my country does? Like my taxes still fund expenditures as if we're not using fiat money and just changing numbers on spreadsheets from negative to positive?

[non-inflammable]

my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be...

i'm good with everything you said except what i quoted ^^
be the positive not the negative.

[Purple Blood]

Aren't you the guy who said I, a citizen, pay for everything my country does? Like my taxes still fund expenditures as if we're not using fiat money and just changing numbers on spreadsheets from negative to positive?

Eventually we will collapse under the interest of the debt. Does that count as paying for it when your currency is rendered worthless and the country you live in is rendered third-world?