Suicide Black Redux

[Clark Kant]

I feel that with Plague Engineer, Sedgemoor Witch and Opposition Agent, there is finally a critical mass of playable 3cc black threats to make Suicide Black a viable legacy budget deck again.

Update: Dauthi Voidwalker is amazing and an automatic 4 of, and Sudden Edict is amazing against our problem matchups and worth testing.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Sedgemoor Witch
2 Opposition Agent
2 Plague Engineer

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Bloodchief’s Thirst
1 Unearth
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Sudden Edict

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
17 Swamp


If the budget allows for fetchlands, the deck could explore some splashes and potentially replace Bloodchief’s Thirst with Fatal Push and Dark Confidant with Gurmag Anglers. But I am not sure the splash would be worth making the deck vulnerable to Stifle and Wasteland which is the main angle that Delver lists have to attack these strategies.

Green splash adds...
Abrupt Decay/Tarmogoyf/Assasin’s Trophy
Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog

White splash adds...
Stoneforge/Deadguy Ale package
Leonin Lightscribe+Chain of Smog

Blue splash adds...
Flusterstorm+Cantrips+FoW
Stifle+Daze+Sinkhole
Delver/Snapcaster/Baleful Strix/Drown in the Loch

[FTW]

We have a similar brew in the other thread. Thoughtseize lifeloss hurts when you're already running all this other lifeloss. Other discard would be better.

More copies of Cabal Therapy are strong with Witch. It's the same interaction as Therapy + Young Pyromancer. Therapy also lets you sacrifice Bob before it kills you, without losing cards.

[Clark Kant]

Those are great points.

Will replace 2 Thoughtseize and a Cling to Dust with 2 Cabal Therapy and a Inquisition of Kozilek

[Mr. Safety]

I think the blue-splash is a dead end, simply because UB Shadow is a much better 'suicide' aggro deck.

And speaking of shadow...isn't it literally the best Suicide Black threat? I would probably cut the 4 singletons for a set of Shadow and then try and trim the land count to include Street Wraith + Reanimate. It might mean you have to cut the Dark Confidants back (because you can't manipulate your library to avoid flipping Street Wraith into a loss). I also think Agadeem's Awakening would be a very nice addition to the deck in place of 4x Swamp. It provides 3 lifeloss for Shadow and should be very good in the mid-late game as a spell. It even allows for you Dark Rituals to enable some pretty good plays, such as Agadeem's Awakening X=3 and getting back a Confidant and Death's Shadow.

[Laser Brains]

1-3 copies of Chain of Smog might not suck here with Sedgemoor Witch. A lone copy of Hatred in the 75 might not suck either. Instant surprise combo wins.

[Laser Brains]

Not related to my above post, but I've toyed with an "all in" hellbent strategy that runs Regisaur, Death's Shadow, Bone Picker, Bob and Unearth.

1. Regisaur is so much better when your hellbent and have nothing to discard to him.

2. Death's Shadow is now essentially a Dark Ritual in the early game to power out Bone Picker. Cast him, let him die cast Bone Picker for 1.

3. Bob to compensate for the card disadvantage and life loss for Shadow late game.

4. Unearth for countered dudes and lost Shadow's to Bone Picker.

[Clark Kant]

Dauthi Voidwalker is amazing and an automatic 4 of...

Sudden Edict is amazing against our problem matchups.


4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Sedgemoor Witch
2 Opposition Agent
2 Plague Engineer

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sudden Edict
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Bloodchief’s Thirst
1 Unearth

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Agadeem’s Awakening
16 Swamp

Maybe Im being too optimistic about Sudden Edict and too greedy with the life loss, both Jitte and Witch provide life gain.

If the budget allows for fetchlands, some of the Sudden Edicts could be replaced with Fatal Push and the Confidants could easily be swapped with Gurmag Anglers.

[FTW]

Sudden Edict is good, in many cases replacing Liliana's Triumph (arguably maybe not in a deck with 3x Liliana), but it doesn't replace spot removal. It's an answer for Marit Lage and Emrakul. You still probably want more Bloodchief's Thirst to trade with 1 drops and 2 drops.

Swamp is a land that doesn't lose you 3 life. I think you went overboard on the lifeloss (Bob, Thoughtseize, Agadeem, maybe fetches...). You don't want to just scoop to Lightning Bolt decks. UR Delver is a thing.

[Laser Brains]

Yes, Dauthi Voidwalker is insane! I was eyeballing him earlier. 3/2 shadow for BB is good enough. Then they added grave-hate and his activated ability is really good to boot! Plus he's a rogue? Wizards went all out on this guy.

[Clark Kant]

Yes Voidwalker has been fantastic, even just as an unblockable 3/2 for 2 mana. But the Leyline effect is very strong against many decks.

Sui Black is definitely more viable than it has been in a long time thanks to these new creatures. Unfortunately, black is still lacking in ways to answer certain permanent types (even postboard) and the deck still faces the same issue that any non Brainstorm based deck faces, that sometimes our answers (discard and removal) don't line up correctly with the boardstate and we don't have the xerox cantrip shell to dig for the answer we are looking for in that situation.

So as always, I think a blue splash to add in a bunch of cantrips might make the deck more consistent, but it would require cutting Rituals and thus making the deck less explosive.

[FTW]

Once you're playing Underground Sea and Brainstorm, it's very hard not to justify Force of Will and then more blue cards, and then the problem ends up being that Dauthi Voidwalker and Hymn to Tourach cost BB while the deck wants to lean blue and cut Ritual, and you don't want to fetch 2x Sea early to walk into Wastelands, so you start wanting to cut the black cards to turn into a Xerox deck.

Blue can fix draws but also can't answer any more resolved threats than black can or gain back life. Green can answer other permanent types with Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy and Pernicious Deed so maybe that's the splash you want. Eva Green was not viable after DRS got banned, but now there's Ignoble Hierarch again as a turn 1 play to curve into BB cards like Hymn and Voidwalker even if you fetched basics!

Deed can be cracked at instant speed and happens to kill Artifact lands, constructs, Treasures, dashed Ragavans, and Urza's Saga for very little mana investment, so it could be making a comeback. It notably doesn't kill planeswalkers like Liliana or Grist, so you can maintain board advantage.

[Reeplcheep]

I am in agreement. I’m pretty sure if you cut ritual you should just end up at Jund or Deathshadow.

[FTW]

Hierarch makes BG look really appealing again. Also Opposition Agent turns Assassin's Trophy into "BG: Vindicate. Flash" while trolling Urza's Saga decks.

[Clark Kant]

Torach, Dread Cantor seems fantastic as a 1 of in a list with 4 Dark Rituals and lots of discard spells.

A 4/3 pro white with a Hymn effect stapled on it that gets bigger with every discard is an amazing rate, especially if ritualed out turn 2.

[FTW]

Or you could just play Grief. BG might have a reasonable shot at supporting that, between Hierarch and Ritual acceleration. Grief is never dead without Ritual, but can also be hardcast or Reanimated for value.


//Creatures: 19
4 Ignoble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Opposition Agent
4 Grief

//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Spells: 19
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Reanimate
2 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Sudden Edict

//Lands: 19
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Wasteland


Hierarch does a lot of things here. It helps curve out the 3-4 mana plays a turn earlier even when you don't have Ritual. It gives Voidwalker +1 for a faster evasive clock. It sacrifices to Cabal Therapy.

Assassin's Trophy answers most problems monoblack can't, and SB cards can take care of the rest. You get powerful options like
Pernicious Deed
Choke
Collector Ouphe
Endurance
Abrupt Decay
Force of Vigor

[Clark Kant]

This deck won't be evoking Grief often. Unmask is played mostly in combo decks due to it being a 2 for 1.

Grief is a 3/2 Menace with a thoughtseize stapled on it for 4 mana.

Tourach, Dread Cantor is a 4/3 Pro White with a Hymn to Tourach stapled on it. I think it's worth playing as a 1 of in lists with 4 Dark Ritual. Perhaps a 3-1 split with Grief in your list above.

It's a shame it can't be Reanimated though.

[FTW]

So normally evoking Grief is bad in a fair deck, but I built in ways to make up for it:
-Evoking Grief, then Reanimating it turn 1 (spend 3 cards to discard their best 2 + make a 3/2 Menace, which is neutral on cards and very strong on tempo)
-Evoke Grief into Cabal Therapy turn 1, taking a 2-of after seeing their hand (2.5-for-3, since you get to flashback Therapy later)
-Curving Grief into a card advantage engine like Dark Confidant
-Following up with Liliana of the Veil +1s (If you Evoke Grief then Ritual Lili turn 1, you're already down to 1-2 cards so those +1s get asymmetrical soon while Grief probably took their answer to Lili)
-Discarding Grief to Liliana and then reanimating it
-Ritual into Grief turn 2
-Hierarch into Grief turn 3

The last 2 are the same speed as Tourach, but Grief is useful for having additional modes as well. Against combo decks 4-mana discard is way too slow, while you can choose to just 2-for-1 yourself to disrupt them. Against fair blue decks, you aren't forced to 2-for-1 yourself and can hardcast it later for 4 mana.

Some non-combo decks using Grief have made recent 5-0s.

Edit: Tourach as a 1-of seems fine too, because you can play it at face value on 2 mana and have it grow from Lili's +1.

[Smea.gol.lum]

So normally evoking Grief is bad in a fair deck, but I built in ways to make up for it:
-Evoking Grief, then Reanimating it turn 1 (spend 3 cards to discard their best 2 + make a 3/2 Menace, which is neutral on cards and very strong on tempo)
-Evoke Grief into Cabal Therapy turn 1, taking a 2-of after seeing their hand (2.5-for-3, since you get to flashback Therapy later)
-Curving Grief into a card advantage engine like Dark Confidant
-Following up with Liliana of the Veil +1s (If you Evoke Grief then Ritual Lili turn 1, you're already down to 1-2 cards so those +1s get asymmetrical soon while Grief probably took their answer to Lili)
-Discarding Grief to Liliana and then reanimating it
-Ritual into Grief turn 2
-Hierarch into Grief turn 3

The last 2 are the same speed as Tourach, but Grief is useful for having additional modes as well. Against combo decks 4-mana discard is way too slow, while you can choose to just 2-for-1 yourself to disrupt them. Against fair blue decks, you aren't forced to 2-for-1 yourself and can hardcast it later for 4 mana.

Some non-combo decks using Grief have made recent 5-0s.

Edit: Tourach as a 1-of seems fine too, because you can play it at face value on 2 mana and have it grow from Lili's +1.

What about Malakir Rebirth in combination with Grief? Looks very strong to me.

[FTW]

What about Malakir Rebirth in combination with Grief? Looks very strong to me.

Yeah that or Undying Evil pairs well with Grief. Reanimate has the most utility without Grief so it probably deserves slots first. I guess Rebirth could replace a land.