Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: BaG of Rocks

  1. #1

    BaG of Rocks

    I've been away a while, so I decided, for my return, to focus on something simple, effective, and with a decent bit of redundancy. What I need help with, however, is making sure it's up to date and tuning it for the Legacy meta these days. I've done a bit of testing so far, and it seems to do pretty well on the whole--though not so much against OmniTell yet (but I'm rusty, and not up to speed on every DTB's weaknesses.) It's straightforward and easy to pilot.

    It's 61 cards, but I think that's NBD.


    --------------------------------

    Updated List:

    Creatures: 19

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Ignoble Hierarch
    4 Hexdrinker
    1 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Endurance
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Kogla, the Titan Ape
    1 Elderscale Wurm
    1 Progenitus


    Spells: 23

    4 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Sudden Edict
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Natural Order
    2 Pernicious Deed
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Reanimate


    Lands: 19

    4 Bayou
    4 Forest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    3 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor


    SB: 15

    4 Reclamation Sage
    3 Veil of Summer
    3 Endurance
    3 Weather the Storm
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Bane of Progress


    Card Choices

    Main deck:

    Veteran Explorer: In many ways, this is the deck's engine, since it feeds Cabal Therapy and Natural Order, but also helps ensure you have enough mana to do stuff. It also tends to discourage opponents from attacking, and even though you'd usually want them to attack into it, the hesitancy does buy you time to do other stuff. That said, I usually cast Hierarch T1, unless I anticipate being attacked into, e.g. by Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer or Goblin Lackey. Note also that you can return it to make Kogla, the Titan Ape indestructible.

    Ignoble Hierarch: The deck is mana-hungry, so this is an obvious piece of on-colour acceleration. The alternative would be Birds of Paradise, and while a flying blocker can be nice, what's even nicer is exalted (especially on Hexdrinker at any level or Progenitus). If I have it in my opening hand, I almost always cast Hierarch on T1.

    Hexdrinker: This is probably the deck's all-star. Although I win many games with Progenitus, I'd say I win even more on the back of a Hexdrinker. Opponents tend to underrate it as a threat, especially if they know Progenitus is lurking around. But the reality is that a 4/4 with protection from instants (and frequently exalted) is pretty tough to deal with, especially early on. And this deck usually only needs a couple of turns to turn a mid-game Hexdrinker into a mini-genitus. With steady investments, it likewise doesn't take long for a T1 or T2 Hexdrinker to reach level 8--e.g. suppose on T2 I have two lands and an Ignoble Hierarch (a common situation). That's L2 on T2, then L5 on T3 and L8 on T4 even if I don't make any more land drops; alternately, L0 on T2 and I use the two remaining mana to cast something else, L4 on T3 with one more land drop, and L8 on T4 or I cast something else and bring it to 5-6 and wait until T5 for L8. That might sound slow on paper, but in practice it hasn't been at all.

    That said, the reality is that Hexdrinker will often eat removal, typically when you pump in the third mana for L3. That's OK--shit happens, and this deck tends to have one or two mana floating spare for steady levelling. You can also usually time your casting so that the opponent is tapped out and you have four mana lying around, which is a fine investment for that turn.

    Allosaurus Shepherd: This singleton is there to help you cast things through Chalice of the Void or a counter-wall. Delver tends to waste removal on it, which is fine--that's one less Lightning Bolt headed to Hexdrinker, and it tends to buy you at least a turn's worth of uncountered castings. And for anything running Chalice of the Void as a primary denial strategy, it's a nasty surprise (and a game-changer for you, since Hexdrinker tends to shine in these matchups).

    Eternal Witness: Excellent fetchable utility card. Soft combos with Kogla, the Titan Ape and Reanimate. Don't forget that in addition to Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order can fetch it, too, in a pinch.

    Endurance: Fetchable graveyard hate or recycling, depending on what you need. Reach is also a huge bonus against Delver.

    Thragtusk: I took this lesson from Nic Fit (well, Nic Fit as it was c. 2017). Sometimes you need a little lifegain or a body which, if removed, leaves another body in place. I also found, before its inclusion, that I frequently sat around with six mana and a Green Sun's Zenith but nothing to fetch in the 4-6CMC range, and I think this is a perfect option in that range. It's useful as it ETBs, blocks or threatens well, and you don't have to worry about sacrificing it to Natural Order (in fact, in doing so you remain insulated from Sudden Death and other sacrifice effects).

    Kogla, the Titan Ape: Something of a utility card. It mostly comes out via Natural Order, and it generally does so to either remove a threat or a blocker by fighting it, or to clear off an artifact or enchantment. Every once in a while, however, you can cast Cabal Therapy on yourself and then Reanimate it, which is pretty fun if rare. (I once managed this on T2 against Affinity, which sealed the deal.)

    Elderscale Wurm: Also utility. This tends to come out as a last resort when you're bleeding too much life away, but it also tends to give you a huge breather--or seal the deal outright. A lot of decks these days don't have much facility for removing 7CMC creatures with a 7/7 body, especially when they've been using their targeted removal on your other stuff. Anything relying on burn for its removal, in particular, will waste a lot of momentum getting it off the table. And when it does, at least you're back at seven life! Against fair decks, many Affinity lists, and jank, in particular, this is often game over.

    Progenitus: This is your obvious Natural Order target, and typically game-winning. If a game drags on you might manage to fetch it with Green Sun's Zenith, too. (I once got to ten mana with Green Sun's Zenith in hand, but never made it to eleven!) Otherwise, you can pitch it to Endurance in a pinch. It has the added niche advantage of buying you at least one turn against anything that mills, unless it mills with Leyline of the Void.

    Assassin's Trophy: Your main piece of removal, it has the advantage of hitting any permanent, including lands. You won't usually use it for mana denial, given its drawback--and given your reliance on Veteran Explorer--but this tactic can work against decks which have few if any basics, or which are vulnerable to colour-screw. If you're casting it against lands, it's usually against utility lands like Urza's Saga or Thespian's Stage or threats like Dark Depths. It's just too bad you can't sometimes target yourself with it.

    Cabal Therapy: Part of the engine that drives you, it gives you a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. Every once in a while you'll start with a hand with a couple copies in it and two copies of Veteran Explorer, which makes for a very explosive T2. You do have to get good at blind Therapies, however, and at anticipating what's likely to be in your opponent's hand as the game goes on. This deck is very easy to pilot, and very forgiving, but effective use of Cabal Therapy without further support from the usual discard spells takes some knowledge, experience, and skill. Oh, and don't forget that you can use it as a sac outlet even when Chalice of the Void is in play.

    Sudden Edict: Uncounterable removal is a godsend in the format these days, and this has the added bonus of hitting threats which can't be targeted. You have enough removal in the deck that it's feasible for your opponent to only have the one big baddy on the board.

    Green Sun's Zenith: Its use here should be pretty obvious: it fetches up pretty much anything. Most of the time you'll ony want to cast it for 2-4 mana, since that covers most of your creatures. The most common targets, for me, are Veteran Explorer (my go-to in the early game), Eternal Witness, or Endurance. Every once in a while you want to use it to fetch Dryad Arbor (either for the mana, as a sac target for Natural Order, or to potentially absorb your opponent's Sudden Edict), or you'll have the mana to go for Thragtusk, Kogla, the Titan Ape, or Elderscale Wurm.

    Natural Order: This is your main threat. When your opponent knows it's in there they're focused on it rather than Hexdrinker, and when they don't, it comes as a very nasty surprise.

    Pernicious Deed: Fantastic mass-removal for the format right now. So many of the threats being played are 1CMC, and with Urza's Saga hanging around... It's also, obviously, a game-changer against Affinity. An outright ender against traditional lists with the destroyable artifact lands, a stabilizer against the more robust versions.

    [cards]Abrupt Decay[cards]: Again, uncounterable removal is great in today's format. This hits much of what's floating around, so it's nice to have. I'd run one or two more, but I don't see any obvious cuts for it.

    Reanimate: This singleton is a real star. I wish I had the room to run another one or two. You can target yourself with Cabal Therapy to Reanimate Thragtusk, Kogla, the Titan Ape, or Elderscale Wurm in the early game, if you're lucky with your opening hand or your draws. You can double-up with Endurance (this would be especially sick post-board if the deck had 3 copies), or chain a together a few with Eternal Witness. You can also, obviously, Reanimate something of your opponent's. Against Reanimator, you can surprise them by taking their reanimation target. If your opponent sees it, they'll probably board in graveyard hate. That's fine, graveyard hate doesn't accomplish much against you, generally speaking (although Leyline of the Void will slow you down, since it shuts down [cards]Veteran Explorer[cards]).

    Wasteland: Make no mistake: this is here as a utility card rather than as part of a mana denial strategy. You can opt for mana denial against decks with few or no basics or which are vulnerable to colour-screw, but with Veteran Explorer and [cards]Assassin's Trophy[3cards], mana denial is not a very effective strategy. Wasteland is here to destroy utility lands. That said, if you hold off on casting Veteran Explorer then you can definitely start the game with an effective mana denial strategy: just be ready to pivot as soon as your opponent manages to string together 2-3 mana.

    Dryad Arbor: Here primarily for being fetched with Green Sun's Zenith to help with acceleration if need be, or with Verdant Catacombs when you need something to sac to Natural Order. It mostly tends to eat a Wasteland, though.


    Sideboard:

    Veil of Summer: Its use is fairly obvious: it helps guard against combo, and can sub in for less useful stuff against blue or black decks.

    Reclamation Sage: This is here primarily to help against OmniTell. It doesn't seal the deal, since they can play around it with a little luck or anticipation, but it helps a lot. It also shines against Affinity, where it ups our removal to ridiculous numbers.

    Endurance: By far the best graveyard hate for us, and it helps against the occasional crab mill deck you see kicking around. It's also pretty sweet against UR Delver, where it does solid work blocking fliers and undermining Delve.

    Weather the Storm: This is totally niche tech, but I rather like it. I bring it in against Storm (where it's harder to play around than Veil of Summer), Burn, and anything else that hopes to cast a lot of spells in a single turn.

    Pernicious Deed: The third one is here for Affinity.

    Bane of Progress: Here primarily against Affinity, where it's a fetchable board-clearer. Also helpful against OmniTell. Nobody expects to see it in Legacy.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Early list(s) for historical purposes:

    Creatures: 20

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Hexdrinker
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Sarulf, Realm Eater
    1 Fleshbag Marauder
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Elderscale Wurm
    1 Progenitus

    Spells: 22

    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Maelstrom Pulse
    3 Natural Order
    2 Crime/Punishment
    2 Snuff Out
    1 Reanimate

    Lands: 19

    4 Bayou
    4 Forest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Swamp
    2 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Dryad Arbor


    SB

    4 Duress
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Pithing Needle


    As you can see, there's a lot of removal, including mass removal. In my limited testing so far, that's been a real net plus. A couple things I wonder about, however:

    • Natural Order targets: Wurm and Progenitus are great, of course. But are they optimal?
    • Fleshbag Marauder: Overkill? Would I be better off running something else in that one slot, perhaps something I can fetch with Zenith? Or even Shriekmaw?
    • Sarulf, Realm Eater: I like the additional mass removal, but is it overkill? Better substituted with something else that can be fetched with Zenith or Order?
    • Sideboard: Totally made up on the basis of basically nothing. I don't know the meta well enough. What should a BG SB look like these days?
    • Should we convert it a bit to add a Wasteland/Loam engine? I think that would dilute the focus a little too much, but it could be done.
    Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 08-12-2021 at 12:49 PM.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  2. #2
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    You can't beat Depths. Cut everything that is BG until the BG slot has card name Assassin's Trophy. This is true for every deck that looks remotely like this [BG and no permission/protection]. This is the weirdest mistake every brewer makes right out of the gate in these decks. It is not possible to build-order auto-lose to SnT and Depths and be serious about being competitive.

    Get Goyf out of deck; your wincon isn't really damage, it's doing unreasonable things with 3-6 mana and not playing any harder into yard hate than you have to. All these things you're doing inconsistently barely exceed the power of Maverick.

    Let's make this simple: GSZ, the Vet/Therapy stuff, Lolth + Ishkanah. Get in touch with your inner Drow.

  3. #3
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    The overall NicFit shell is still playable but meta and card changes mean it could use an update. Check out the Nic Fit thread for ideas.

    If you're playing Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order in the same ramp deck, you probably want at least 1 Allosaurus Shepherd. Uncounterable NOs are good. You'll also ramp to the 5/5 mana.

    Tarmogoyf is no longer the Legacy powerhouse it used to be. It's vanilla and weak to grave hate. It's OK as an efficient finisher in decks with low mana (RUG Delver), but with Veteran Explorer ramp you can do better. Hexdrinker is good. Tireless Tracker and Scavenging Ooze are also GSZ-able mana sinks. You can also play big dumb stuff like Ishkanah+Lolth, or Carnage Tyrant, or other dumb things like that. Those are better finishers than Goyf. At the lower end of the curve you could play more disruption.

    Fleshbag Marauder has been outclassed by Plaguecrafter, which has fewer fail cases. But Liliana's Triumph is probably better than both (instant speed answers hasty Emrakul and Marit Lage).

    Plague Engineer is a thing and might as well be in the SB.

    Like Fox said, Assassin's Trophy is better than the Pulses, Crime//Punishments, and at least 1 of the Decays. You probably want 4 copies. The risk of giving opponent free lands is reduced when you've already given them basics with Veteran Explorer. Maybe they've run out. The whole point of Nic Fit is this gambit you can use extra mana better than the opponent can, so you might as well double down on that. The relevant parts of the text are it kills lands (vs Dark Depths, Field of the Dead, mana-screw), it kills high cmc permanents (Omniscience, Karn), and it kills at instant speed (stop decks like SneakShow/OmniTell on their turn). For all that extra interactivity, giving them a 3rd basic isn't a big deal. Meanwhile Decay was mainly strong to fight Counterbalance, which is a much smaller piece of the meta now than when Top was around.

    Realistically there is very little cost for you to splash for 1-of gamewinners like Field of the Dead and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. If not, at least come prepared with a strategy to beat everyone else playing those. Cling to Dust is maindeckable grave hate.

  4. #4

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    My two cents.

    I also had the idea of playing a streamlined fair deck, hoping to crush delver into oblivion, thing is, basicly every single fair deck is no longer favoured against delver.
    Currently delver shifted from the old "tempo oriented" gameplan which had no power to fight against big treaths once you stabilize and survive the early game to a "new tempo oriented" gameplan consisting in playing just good stuff at low mana.

    At the moment delver is a deck stacked with high treaths, basicly if you play a fair deck you are doing what they are doing, but every single card you play is somewhat outclassed by theirs.
    The race that UR brings to the table is absurd, most of the creatures they play are better than yours (even if you spent 3 times the mana cost), getting dazed once if often times lights out, they can generate card advantage easily (thanks Expressive Iteration and Ethereal Forager).
    It's actually super hard to build a "rock style" deck that beats delver, with the addition of Force of Negation they have too much free countermagic and, for example, trading 2x2 and losing a turn trying to play natural order is a disaster.
    And to be fair, it's not really a problem with your deck, simply delver is strictly the best fair deck by a wide margin, the only way to come close is maybe trying some blue xerox control variant packed with creature removal (which could beat delver but is worse against the field).

    So my point is, those kind of decks used to at least have a good MU against delver, but I am fairly sure that you are even at best right now, and you likely have close to autoloss against combo, if you want to play a deck like this you should at least mitigate how much you lose to combo (get assassi's trophy, wastelands for depths and pack more disruption in general) and try to do your best to play effettive cards against delver, and by effective i mean things that DO NOT require you to durdle around, because in actual games you are almost never given the chance.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  5. #5
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    To avoid losing to Force of Negation and Daze, does this deck want Allosaurus Shepherd? Maybe even in multiples?

    It protects Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Assassin's Trophy, Force of Vigor, Maelstrom Pulse, Pernicious Deed, any green threat...

  6. #6

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Thanks for the advice on updating things.

    Here's what I've been running, which works pretty well, overall, although I haven't tested enough matches to get a very good sense of the percentages. Certainly, it runs a lot better in the current meta than the starting deck did! (Also, man, Kogla is a real treasure.)

    Creatures: 18

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Ignoble Hierarch
    4 Hexdrinker
    1 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Kogla, the Titan Ape
    1 Elderscale Wurm
    1 Progenitus

    Spells: 24

    4 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Sudden Edict
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Natural Order
    2 Pernicious Deed
    2 Snuff Out
    1 Reanimate
    1 Life from the Loam

    Lands: 19

    4 Bayou
    4 Forest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    3 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor


    SB

    4 Veil of Summer
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Endurance
    1 Sandwurm Convergence
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Bane of Progress


    I'm not entirely sold on Loam--it's not been super useful, but on the other hand, it promises a lot and doesn't take up much room. It would be nice to maindeck Endurance, I think, but the question is how to make room for them (maybe cutting one of the 4x creatures?). Shrug. Kogla has been a treasure, and the synergy with Witness is very nice. I also wonder about Snuff Out--I've been very glad to have it around, including to occasionally nuke my own Explorer for free, but perhaps I'd be better off with something else? Finally, I cut Crime/Punishment for Deed because, in the end, I never once, in several dozen games, used Crime (though I've used Reanimate plenty!), and Deed packs a bigger wallop against Affinity anyway. Punishment and Deed are also great against Delver, especially UR. Losing Crime/Punishment meant I could go for Ignoble Hierarch over Birds of Paradise (or Noble Hierarch), too, since I wasn't trying to be all cutesy any more.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  7. #7

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    I've smootherd things out a bit further, and am really liking the results:

    -1 Life from the Loam: It wasn't doing much, to be honest, since there was no real way to fetch it or abuse dredge. Mostly, it just encouraged my opponents to nuke my graveyard and bring in their grave hate. Which, to be clear, doesn't hurt this deck, but it's nice to be able to pull out a surprise Reanimate, or flash back Cabal Therapy.

    -2 Snuff Out: I love this card, but I think that ultimately the danger it posed, especially with so much Delver lying around, outweighed its utility.


    +1 Endurance: I've been wanting utility graveyard hate in the main deck, so that everything doesn't ride on games 2 and 3. Plus, reach, grave hate, and a 3/4 body doesn't hurt against Delver. It's easily fetched via Green Sun's Zenith or Natural Order. Definitely board in the other three against Delver. This card is really amazing.

    +2 Abrupt Decay: It replaces Snuff Out, obviously. Uncounterability is great against Delver (especially since that's six uncounterable removal spells even without Allosaurus Rider), and it can still hit my own Veteran Explorer if necessary. I've boarded the other two, since it's so handy to have uncounterable removal.


    So, the new list, complete with a re-tooled sideboard:



    Creatures: 19

    4 Veteran Explorer
    4 Ignoble Hierarch
    4 Hexdrinker
    1 Allosaurus Shepherd
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Endurance
    1 Thragtusk
    1 Kogla, the Titan Ape
    1 Elderscale Wurm
    1 Progenitus


    Spells: 23

    4 Assassin's Trophy
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Sudden Edict
    3 Green Sun's Zenith
    3 Natural Order
    2 Pernicious Deed
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Reanimate


    Lands: 19

    4 Bayou
    4 Forest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    3 Swamp
    1 Dryad Arbor


    SB: 15

    4 Veil of Summer
    4 Reclamation Sage
    3 Endurance
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Bane of Progress


    It runs very smoothly and man, is Hexdrinker ever a beast! Holy cow. Most of my wins come directly from it, and it alone.
    Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 07-08-2021 at 01:52 AM.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  8. #8

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    After some testing with the new SB, things are much better against OmniTell than they were. I know it was obvious, but I finally figured out that the trick is to keep a hand with Reclamation Sage or Bane of Progress, and keep at least two mana open for Sudden Edict. It's still early to tell just what the percentages are, but at least now the deck doesn't lose every game (including some G1s).

    I'm also toying with a cutesy idea: what if the board was partly a transformational sideboard, with Witherbloom Apprentice and Chain of Smog for a combo finish? The infrastructure is there to support it, and in any case I often board out the Natural Order plan g2 to confound my opponents, so it's tempting.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  9. #9

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    I think it's too cutesy, in the end. I might try building it into the MD, but everything works so nicely together that I'm loathe to disrupt that.

    For now, my only change is to the SB: -2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Weather the Storm (a small surprise against storm combo, Forge Bots, and the like). Pulling it out delights me every time.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  10. #10

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Is this just a g/b rock deck with a natural order finish? How is this deck holding up? It seems pretty cool.

  11. #11

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    I've edited in explanations for the card choices: I think the list is stable now.

    Quote Originally Posted by FistaCuffSmith View Post
    Is this just a g/b rock deck with a natural order finish? How is this deck holding up? It seems pretty cool.
    Thanks for the interest! Yes, basically, it's an updated Rock which sacrificed discard for Natural Order for the overkill. (I imagine one could profitably run something similar but with Witherbloom Apprentice and Chain of Smog for a combo finish instead) I've updated the original post to explain the card choices, however, and you'll see there that I win on the back of Hexdrinker more often than not. Natural Order is a very important part of the deck, but it's an insurance policy and a diversion tactic as much as anything.

    It's been running very smoothly indeed, and as I said just above, I think I've arrived at a stable list. I love how much removal it has, and how much utility it packs in. It struggles a little against combo, as expected, but it's doing pretty well against the rest of the field, and it absolutely murders fair decks, randomness, and homebrews. And Affinity. It demolishes Affinity, but you wouldn't expect any less from The Rock.

    Over the coming months I'll slowly start posting matchup analyses. (I've got a baby at home and some upcoming publication deadlines, so I can't do too much in any one sitting.)
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  12. #12

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    I have to say, it seems like a really cool deck. 4x bayou seems steep as far as entry level, but everything else seems doable. How are your matchups against the top decks in the format?

  13. #13

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by FistaCuffSmith View Post
    I have to say, it seems like a really cool deck. 4x bayou seems steep as far as entry level, but everything else seems doable.
    Yeah, it's not cheap for paper Magic--on the other hand, it's cheaper than most established decks. I myself have only 3 Bayous. so my paper deck features an Overgrown Tomb. But the reality is that the most important lands here are the basics. TBH, I almost never fetch a Bayou when I could fetch a Forest instead (or a Swamp, if I need it), because I can't afford the mana screw. If you wanted a budget version, I think you'd do just fine replacing them with basics. Allosaurus Shepherd is also stupidly expensive (and I don't have any IRL, unfortunately). You can sort of approximate it with Prowling Serpopard, but it's not quite the same, since that can't protect your Assassin's Trophies.


    How are your matchups against the top decks in the format?
    I'll be writing up detailed matchup analyses over the coming months as time and other commitments allow, but I'd say it's fares quite well. It's not a Tier 1 deck, but I'd say it's solidly Tier 2ish. Future printings may help; I guess we'll see. It holds its own against Delver (has an easier time against UR than UG), does well against Death and Taxes, Depths, and Ninjas, struggles against OmniTell (though things are better now that they have to play around Reclamation Sage and Bane of Progress with Sudden Death backup). i haven't done enough testing against Reanimator to be sure, but I think that's probably a good matchup; the same is true for Miracles, except that I suspect it may be slightly disfavoured there (so far it seems like speed is of the essence; we can whittle them down very low pretty easily, but once they establish control those last few life are hard to get). I haven't tested at all against Elves but I suspect it's a relatively poor matchup.

    On the Established front, we're heavily favoured against Affinity in pretty much all its guises, seem to be favoured against Burn, Dredge, Goblins (BR is tougher than mono-red, but still seems generally favourable), and Stax, struggle against Storm pre-board (but seem to do pretty well post-board between Veil of Summer and Weather the Storm), and I've done well against 12 Post and Infect, although they can sometimes just muster the speed to win before I can. Pox and similar mono-black midrange can be a little tricky, but still seems on the favourable side in my testing. I've only played a couple games against Nic Fit and Aluren, and don't have a good feel for those matchups.

    None of this is based on systematic testing, however, just whatever Cockatrice throws up on a given day.
    Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 08-08-2021 at 10:52 AM.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  14. #14

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    I think I'll test adding a single copy of Grist, the Hunger Tide. probably in Dryad Arbor's slot, since although Dryad can be useful, it's also something of a liability where mana development is concerned.

    What I like about it is that it's basically fetchable removal via both Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order. It's also offers some resilience against the Pox-y decks running around, where Liliana can be a real problem for us. It's also a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer, of course, and can feed Natural Order. That said, having to sac something to remove may prove prohibitive. We'll see.
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  15. #15

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen View Post
    I think I'll test adding a single copy of Grist, the Hunger Tide. probably in Dryad Arbor's slot, since although Dryad can be useful, it's also something of a liability where mana development is concerned.

    What I like about it is that it's basically fetchable removal via both Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order. It's also offers some resilience against the Pox-y decks running around, where Liliana can be a real problem for us. It's also a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer, of course, and can feed Natural Order. That said, having to sac something to remove may prove prohibitive. We'll see.
    I don't know if I'd cut your Dryad Arbor, he turns all of your GSZ's into Llanowar Elves. I do like the addition of Grist though. GSZable removal is pretty tight!

    Kogla, the Titan Ape is another underplayed one. I've been running him over Dragonlord Atarka in Red Green Stuff and he has won me several games. Lots of value there.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  16. #16

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    I don't know if I'd cut your Dryad Arbor, he turns all of your GSZ's into Llanowar Elves. I do like the addition of Grist though. GSZable removal is pretty tight!
    Yeah, we'll see how it goes. For now, I feel like Dryad mostly just eats removal, but it definitely happens that you want to be able to fetch it for Natural Order, so... Shrug. I think it's currently a relatively weak slot, and I hesitate to take out any of the actual removal for Grist. I guess we'll see if it proves itself at all. I wish it were a slightly better card, TBH, because it's kind of underpowered as a planeswalker. But the tutorability is so tempting... plus, I realized last night it can be Reanimated, and that sacrificing a creature isn't required (if targets become illegal or whatever). =)



    Kogla, the Titan Ape is another underplayed one. I've been running him over Dragonlord Atarka in Red Green Stuff and he has won me several games. Lots of value there.

    I know, it's so good!
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

  17. #17

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    The ramp from Dryad Arbor is nice. Mine don't usually get targeted and they are very nice for sacking to Natural Order. Plus you can grab em with both fetchlands annnnd GSZ. Progenitus on the other hand is a completely dead card if you draw him. I usually will run him in the sideboard in my Natural Order decks. And while Natural Order is awesome, it sucks when it gets countered. I'm only running two my Red Green Stuff deck. The fatty NO targets I run are Kogla, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed and Kalonian Hydra. These cards I can feasibly hard cast and are never dead.

    Yes, Kogla is nuts! I've literally had him lock opponents out of games with his "destroy artifact or enchantment" ability.

    Thrashing Brontodon is another underplayed silver bullet for your toolbox. I like him a lot better than Reclamation Sage because you get a large 3/4 body and you can sac him whenever you want.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  18. #18

    Re: BaG of Rocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    The ramp from Dryad Arbor is nice. Mine don't usually get targeted and they are very nice for sacking to Natural Order. Plus you can grab em with both fetchlands annnnd GSZ. Progenitus on the other hand is a completely dead card if you draw him.
    While that's all true about Dryad, I think it has a lot less utility here. T1, I want to be casting either Ignoble Hierarch or Veteran Explorer. I'd rather save the GSZ to grab Explorer or a bigger beatstick. The few times I've GSZed for Dryad, it's been because I was otherwise mana-screwed, and Dryad inevitably got destroyed anyway. So the real utility, as I see it, is to fetch it with a Catacombs or GSZ to cast Natural Order or protect a beater from a sacrifice effect. That's definitely worthwhile, but it's a pretty limited utility. So I'm thinking it's safer to cut it than something else. But I could be wrong!

    A Prog in the hand isn't so bad, really. If I'm desperate for him, I can Therapy myself so that I can fetch it (preferably the same turn). Otherwise, it happens rarely enough that I'm not too bothered by it (often, it ends up getting discarded to an opponent's disruption anyway). The bigger issue is having him in your opening hand, but the new mulligan fixes that rather nicely.

    So far, Grist has been pretty good. It's been good in matches against BR Goblins (where it acted as removal, diverted an attack, and gave me something to sac to Natural Order), an Eight Crab variant (where it just went ultimate FTW), and UR Delver, where it did the removal and sac outlet thing and enabled some broken shenanigans with Explorer, Eternal Witness, Reanimate, and Natural Order (not all at once! Just in different games). In one game against BUG Delver I needed to be able to fetch a Dryad Arbor to cast Natural Order, which would have won that particular game. There were a few 12Post games too, but Grist never came out for those.

    So: so far, so good. It looks like a risk that was worth taking. But if you think I could or should cut something else instead, I'm all ears!


    Thrashing Brontodon is another underplayed silver bullet for your toolbox. I like him a lot better than Reclamation Sage because you get a large 3/4 body and you can sac him whenever you want.
    That's a nice little gem, yes. I don't think it fits here, though, unless you're suggesting somewhere in the MD. Reclamation Sage is in the sideboard pretty much exclusively for OmniTell, and Brontodon wouldn't help much there. That it can come in against other decks is a bonus, but honestly, it's really overkill (especially vs. Affinity, where the removal plus Bane of Progress and the third Deed is already more than enough).
    "I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

    RIP Ari

    Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)