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Thread: Legacy Hollow-Vine

  1. #61
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Yeah Petal is great here. I just doubt that OUAT is the correct cut. As bad as they are past turn 1, you also need 4 copies to maximize seeing it on turn 1 and this deck is all about the turn 1s. Hanni's build had 4 OUAT + 4 Petal.

    I would cut 2 lands + 2 other slots to make room for 4 Petal. 16 lands seems like too many. Petal also makes it easier to make T1 Kitchen Imps and play through Daze.

  2. #62
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Since I gathered much helpful information from this thread (thanks to everyone contributing) I want to share my current list and ask for some opinions.

    The list:

    4 Hollow One
    4 Vengevine

    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla

    4 Anje's Ravager
    2 Ox of Agonas

    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Breakthrough
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Lotus Petal

    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Cavern of Souls

    Sideboard:

    2 Firestorm
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Bone Shards
    4 Faerie Macabre

    5 ???

    The list feels great but I have doubts on Ox of Agonas in this fast 5c setup, oftentimes it is too slow to have an impact and thus could be replaced with a more aggressive option.
    I thought about replacing it with the following cards:
    Echo of Eons could be a more aggressive LED payoff that cycles into more Hallow Ones and Wallas.
    First-Sphere Gargantua as another LED payoff that draws a card and deals a one-time 5 damage.
    The obvious addition as a discard payoff would be Kitchen Imp, even more so since I do play petal, but I am not really fond of him ... maybe you guys can convince me?
    A wild one would be Bomat Courier but it does not contribute anything towards T1, but could be a similar refuel card like Ravager and Ox while also being a discard outlet.

    I was also thinking of replacing Once Upon A Time with Serum Powder for more consistent T1 hands. Often I do not keep hands that miss 1 piece of the "combo" but had OUAT because there could be better 6 cards and the chance to brick and do nothing for x turns is not insignificant. In these scenarios, the Powder would be a new grip of 7 instead of 6. The powder is dead for the rest of the game on the other hand, whereas OUAT still has some functionality. OUAT however is usually used by me to make good and functional hands better, which has its merits.

    The sideboard is a mess, I like Faerie Macabre with OUAT, and found 3 Firestorm as being too clunky when drawing multiples, but besides that, I have 5 open slots ... any suggestions?
    I tried Thalia, Guardian of Thraben as a way to battle combo decks (petal, OUAT, ...) or Deafening Silence but was not convinced.
    I also struggled a bit against lands and thought about Alpine Moon to fight against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Maze of Ith, and Glacial Chasm.

    Please do not be hesitant on hard feedback, these are just some (wild) thoughts and I would love to get some input.
    For now, I won nearly every match I played on X, but would like to tweak the list more for future tournament play.
    It was also nice to see other people pick up the deck, I had to play some mirrors. Breakthrough was a great tie-breaker in these games.

  3. #63
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Glad to hear Breakthrough has been strong, especially with Petal mana added.

    Yeah, Ox is less good without Burning Inquiry and Faithless Looting to dig and fill the graveyard. Ox could be the cut for this type of build.

    I like Kitchen Imp, but not everyone is a fan. Perhaps you already have enough small creatures through Rootwallas and 8PImp. If you want to replace Ox with a card-drawing body you can cast more reliably, Asylum Visitor is an option. Or maybe you want that slot to be Burning Inquiry or Cabal Therapy.

    If you have open slots in the SB and main, I would try out Therapy. It can fill multiple roles between disruption and madness outlet, and it's easy to flashback.

    I would still play 3 Firestorm. The chance of drawing doubles is small, bad luck. If that 2nd Firestorm was a Bone Shards instead, would your hand be any better? You would still probably cast Firestorm first. On the other hand, if you drew an opening hand with only Bone Shards (instead of Firestorm) vs Elves, D&T or UR Ragavan, wouldn't that be much worse? You could kill their first creature but wouldn't be able to deploy threats. Firestorm is an uncounterable discard X. Against a deck like UR Delver, if you Firestorm their Ragavan/DRC, you are discarding cards no matter what (can't be stopped by Force or Daze). They could counter the Firestorm, letting you play your creatures, or they could counter Hollow One and let their creature die. Either way you're making some progress here. For matchups where Firestorm is good, you always want it on turn 1, and that's hard with 2 copies.

    Alpine Moon seems good. It also beats Urza's Saga (which can tutor up hate) and Bojuka Bog (from Crop Rotation decks like Depths and Lands).

  4. #64

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Hello there !

    I enjoy playing this deck a lot and I play a stock jund version at this point (already listed in a previous post).

    In my metagame, it struggles against early big blockers like Murktide Regent, Marit Lage or even Tarmogoyf with good draws (not the best ones).

    Last tournament was :
    2 Unknown decks
    1 Karn Echos
    1 Reanimator
    1 Esper control
    1 Bant control
    1 ANT
    1 Maverick
    1 UR Delver
    1 RUG Delver
    1 Goblins
    1 Sneak and Show
    1 Black Suicide
    1 Artifact Prison

    I see no obvious sideboard card instead of Chain of Vapor and replacing a Mountain by a Volcanic Island right now. Plan would be to fetch Badlands then Volcanic Island instead of Taiga. Bone shards or Run Afoul can't answer everything in my metagame. Not sure we can afford any 2 CMC cards.

    Do you have any other card in mind ?

  5. #65
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    The 5c manabase has a much easier time playing SB cards. That's another reason in its favor.

    In 5c you can run anything in that slot: Chain of Vapor, Path to Exile, Innocent Blood, Sudden Edict (may be too hard to cast depending on your mana).
    Jund probably depends on Run Afoul getting there.

  6. #66

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I still need to ponder the 5c version. Being able to play with 1 Mountain is great against a lot of decks, splashing a fourth color is already a step in the wrong direction. A lot of decks play some Wasteland package with big blockers.

    I turned the problem around my head and it seemed clear no creature deck can race Hollow-Vine and we probably just need to tempo the opponent one or two turns.

    Then I remembered Apostle's Blessing in some Infect decks. This card could save an Anje's Ravager from an removal spell (not on turn 1) or make unblockable Hollow One against later blockers.

    Random thought, Kitchen Imp can chump block as a combat trick too against Marit Lage.

    I'm still looking for good and cheap combat tricks.

  7. #67
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by meuns View Post
    Hello there !

    I enjoy playing this deck a lot and I play a stock jund version at this point (already listed in a previous post).

    In my metagame, it struggles against early big blockers like Murktide Regent, Marit Lage or even Tarmogoyf with good draws (not the best ones).

    Last tournament was :
    2 Unknown decks
    1 Karn Echos
    1 Reanimator
    1 Esper control
    1 Bant control
    1 ANT
    1 Maverick
    1 UR Delver
    1 RUG Delver
    1 Goblins
    1 Sneak and Show
    1 Black Suicide
    1 Artifact Prison

    I see no obvious sideboard card instead of Chain of Vapor and replacing a Mountain by a Volcanic Island right now. Plan would be to fetch Badlands then Volcanic Island instead of Taiga. Bone shards or Run Afoul can't answer everything in my metagame. Not sure we can afford any 2 CMC cards.

    Do you have any other card in mind ?
    Do you remember what your T1s were in these scenarios?
    I am playing the 5c version with Break Through and Nomand to have more explosive T1s, whereas the Jund version tends to have a more consistent "mid" game, while not always having a strong T1. I even included Echo of Eons for know, which can create some amazing T1s with LED and redraw into Hollow Ones or as a make-shift mulligan (still testing).
    It would give some insight if the times you struggled with blockers were because of "slow" T1 hands.

    But if they go T2 Marit Lage or a timely big Murktide it is rough for any version of the deck tbh.
    FTW gave some good sideboard options that do not necessarily require a fourth or fifth color. Bone Shards also gets Murktide and Goyf, but of coruse not Marit Lage :)

  8. #68

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I took no precise notes about my starts just some memories.

    I did mulligan to 6 a lot, to 5 a few and no T1 was bad.

    Best T1 used Burning Inquiry and Hollow One both on the play and on the draw.

    Anje's Ravager got killed a lot after discarding my whole hand... and Ox of Agonas was useless in this case.

    All lost games were against big early blockers I couldn't remove or ignore. I destroyed several Golos, Tireless Pilgrim with Ancient Grudge against Artifact Prison and I was able to win in the late game (T5 or 6 maybe).

  9. #69
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by eatbasics View Post
    But if they go T2 Marit Lage or a timely big Murktide it is rough for any version of the deck tbh.
    Yeah, this is hard for any version preboard. SB needs answers.

    Path to Exile kills Marit Lage, Murktide, Goyf, BR Reanimator guys (Griselbrand, Chancellor, etc), Hogaak, Gurmag, Shadow... most early big threats. +1 land is not a big deal if you got the explosive T1. Giving them life would be worse.

    Chain of Vapor hits all the same things as long as you think they can't deploy it again or won't also bounce your Hollow One (Vapor Snag might be better)

    Run Afoul hits Marit Lage, Murktide and Reanimator flyers... that's pretty good. But it misses Goyf and Hogaak. Maybe grave hate could manage those.

    Bone Shards hits Goyf too but misses Marit Lage. Not sure that is worth it. Depends on meta. Path and bounce hit more things, if you can make the colored mana.

  10. #70

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Next list I will play :

    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Anje's Ravager
    3 Kitchen Imp
    2 Anger
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Burning Inquiry
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Lotus Petal

    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Mountain
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Taiga
    2 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard :

    2 Firestorm
    2 Run Afoul
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Bone Shards
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Leyline of the Void

    I swapped :
    Faerie Macabre for Leyline of the Void because playing T1 on the draw against combo/reanimator against discard is better this way;
    Mindbreak Trap for Cabal Therapy for all reasons listed in previous posts;
    Ox of Agonas for Lotus Petal for fixing my early game (T1 Daze, T1 Hollow One, T1 Kitchen Imp...);
    Gamble for Kitchen Imp because it was too slow (no available mana) or just win more, I only rely on Once Upon a Time.

    I hope to increase my winrate !

    2 Ox of Agonas could come back with 2 Goblin Lore if more control decks pop in my tournaments.

  11. #71

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Hello !

    I finally changed my list after testing Kitchen Imp. It seems this card shines only with Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis in the deck and I don't want to rely on my graveyard.

    Main :

    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Anje's Ravager
    1 Anger
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One
    3 Street Wraith
    1 Ox of Agonas

    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Burning Inquiry
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    2 Badlands
    2 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Mountain

    Sideboard :

    2 Firestorm
    2 Run Afoul
    3 Ancient Grudge
    2 Bone Shards
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    Small tournament :
    2 Reanimator
    1 Show and Tell
    1 12-Posts
    1 Madness
    1 MUD
    1 Doomsday
    1 Bant Control

    I went 0-4 !

    1-2 vs Reanimator (on draw)
    Lost first game against Serra's Emissary after a close race.
    Won second game using Leyline of the Void and a fast clock (he plays Show and Tell).
    Lost third game after mulliganing to 3 for finding one piece of hate (2 Run Afoul, 2 Bone Shards, 4 Leyline of the Void). This was maybe a mistake and maybe relying on Faithless Looting or a lucky Burning Inquiery would have been better.

    0-2 vs Show and Tell (on play)
    Lost two very close races and made a mistake not playing around Dazebut he was also holding Force of Will anyways.

    0-2 vs MUD (on play)
    The game failed its start randomly the two games and he was able to lock me.

    1-2 vs Doomsday (on play)
    First game, I put 10 power turn 1 on the board and he scooped.
    Second game, I can't put any pressure, he bounced my Anje's Ravager before the trigger and was unable to play anything anymore.
    Last game, he created a Doomsday stack with no counter but I misplayed my Mindbreak Trap...

    Random thoughts :
    Street Wraith fixed a lot of hands;
    Using sideboard cards is very hard with all discard we play and it seems we need better luck on average for using them;
    Adding blue and bounces seem strong for tempo.

  12. #72

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    A friend is going to join me for the local legacy event, and he wants to play something aggressive. I have the cards for a list like this, but without LED (though we can do up to 15 proxies). I haven't really liked LED in my testing and in the online videos I have watched, but it seems to be popular. I may set up the LED list for him to run, but I was wondering if I could get some comments concerning this version:

    One Mana Madness

    Creatures
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Vengevine
    4 Poxwalkers
    4 Hollow One
    4 Kitchen Imp
    4 Street Wraith

    Instants and Sorceries
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Careful Study
    4 Once Upon a Time

    Lands
    4 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Gemstone Mine

    So, the deck folds to Chalice on 1 and has trouble with Daze decks, but it can otherwise get going pretty quickly. Imp/Tribe and Rootwalla allow for easy Poxwalker, Vengevine, and Hollow One starts.

    Other Cards to Consider (most of which would slow the deck down and move it more in the LED direction, which is okay too)
    Anje’s Ravager
    Asylum Visitor and Breakthrough
    Burning Inquiry (I really don't like the randomness of this card, but it works nicely with Orcish Bowmasters, so they could both be included in some fashion)
    Firestorm
    Chain of Smog (with sideboard transition combo Witherbloom Apprentice)
    Wheel of Misfortune (with sideboard transition combo Orcish Bowmasters and Hallow)

    Concerning the last two, I think Chain of Smog is an underrated great card for Madness, even without the Witherbloom Apprentice. I have similar feelings about Wheel of Misfortune. If those two cards are in the main deck, the Vengevines and Poxwalkers could be sided out to avoid graveyard hate, with combo pieces boarded in in their place.

  13. #73
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I'm a big fan of the explosive Tireless Tribe rainbow builds (5c 8Pimp, instead of Jund Madvine).

    12 lands is light, especially without LED. With too few mana sources you scoop to Daze/FoW+Wasteland, which happens to be played by the most popular deck in the format. We usually ran 14-15 lands. Cavern of Souls is the other rainbow land to play. Cavern does not look good on paper but try it out. It fixes many weaknesses. T1 uncounterable Imp or Tribe makes a big difference in that Daze/FoW matchup. Cavern also helps play through Chalice @ 1 in game 1. If you don't want Cavern, at least consider some other rainbow land or Lotus Petal.

    You need SB answers for Chalice @ 1. Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge are cards. You don't really have the green count for Force of Vigor, unfortunately.

    You may also want SB answers for Leyline of the Void. Unfortunately the answers for Leyline don't overlap with the answers for Chalice. Nature's Claim, Fragmentize, Chain of Vapor, Wispmare are all turn 1 answers, but they don't answer Chalice. Another option is to board in other green cards so you can support Force of Vigor to answer both Leyline and Chalice.

    Firestorm's a strong SB card. You could consider it main, but it maxes out at X=2 unless opponent plays an early creature. It's usually better sideboard unless your meta is full of creature decks. It's best against Elves, Delver, D&T, Cephalid Breakfast, Maverick...

    Chain of Smog is a neat idea, but you're going to have a hard time supporting a 2cmc + 2cmc combo in a deck with this few mana sources. Any mana denial strategy will destroy you. The deck just isn't designed to support midrangey combos like that. It's meant to explode on 1 land. If you want a 2-mana madness enabler, Oona's Prowler, Lotleth Troll, and Noose Constrictor already exist. They're all better than maindecking Chain of Smog without the combo. Lotleth was in earlier builds. It got cut for being too slow. But if you do want a 2-mana enabler, start with one of those creatures.

    Bowmasters is cute but there isn't room or mana for it. It doesn't support what the deck's trying to do.

    Wheel of Misfortune is also just too expensive and slow. It encourages playing a completely different style of deck. This deck needs to aggro fast, otherwise you lose to other fast decks and need a 30-card SB to have answers for things like Murktide, Marit Lage, Show and Tell... With the fast build you can at least threaten to aggro race, allowing you to give SB slots to answer hate cards.

    Careful Study & friends
    Now onto a more controversial point. Careful Study is one of the weaker cards. It doesn't actually enable any turn 1 plays:
    -discard 2 cards is not enough for Hollow One
    -discard Rootwalla + Vengevine is not enough to cast Vengevine
    -can't be cast by Cavern

    Sometimes you can combo it with Street Wraith for turn 1 Hollow One, but that's the exception, not the rule. Most of the time all it does is set up for a turn 2 play, while telling the opponent what you're up to and giving them time to disrupt.

    Compare that to Tireless Tribe:
    -discard 3 cards & cast T1 Hollow One
    -discard Rootwalla + Vengevine IS enough to cast T1 Vengevine (Tribe counted as creature #1, Rootwalla is creature #2)
    -can sometimes activate EOT to play around opponent's deck
    -uncounterable with Cavern

    Even Faithless Looting is a bit weak, but at least it has flashback (better in LED builds). Careful Study is the worst enabler and the easiest cut.

    If you're on 4 Careful Study + 4 Faithless Looting + 0 LED, then you're already conceding playing a slower build that doesn't seek explosive turn 1 plays but deploying threats slower on turn 2-3. At that point consider tech like Anje's Ravager or Ox of Agonas.

    If you want the explosive turn 1 plays of the rainbow build, consider Breakthrough+Lotus Petal or Burning Inquiry over Careful Study or Faithless Looting.


    Edit: For example you could run something like this as an LED-less build

    //Mana Sources: 18
    4 City of Brass
    4 Mana Confluence
    2 Gemstone Mine
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Lotus Petal

    //Creatures: 32
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    2 Lotleth Troll
    2 Kitchen Imp
    4 Poxwalkers
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Spells: 10
    4 Once Upon A Time
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Breakthrough

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Firestorm
    3 Force of Vigor
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Big Game Hunter
    2 Path to Exile

    The extra mana sources make it easier to support cards like Breakthrough and Lotleth Troll/Noose Constrictor. The extra green slots support Force of Vigor. Room is made for maindeck Therapy, which can be cast from graveyard (triggers Poxwalkers) and helps fight disruption or combo.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-21-2023 at 01:19 AM.

  14. #74

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Thanks! Your suggestions make a lot of sense, and I will talk with my friend about what he feels good running.

    Concerning Chain of Smog and Wheel of Misfortune, I will have to try to brew a slower build that takes advantage of them. I think it is pretty strong to play Chain of Smog and target myself once, then target the opponent (and there are other possible plays).

  15. #75
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    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    Concerning Chain of Smog and Wheel of Misfortune, I will have to try to brew a slower build that takes advantage of them. I think it is pretty strong to play Chain of Smog and target myself once, then target the opponent (and there are other possible plays).
    True, Chain of Smog can have advantages. A couple points:

    1) Hollow-Vine/MadVine is not a "fair" 1-for-1 deck. It's explosive aggro, sort of aggro-combo, instead of a grindy aggro deck like Delver or Shadow. That means trading with the opponent's 2 worst cards doesn't necessarily help you win. They might discard 2 irrelevant cards and still have the resources to stop you. Targeted discard like Cabal Therapy or Grief is much more valuable in decks like this, even if Chain discards more total cards. Chain of Smog's discard shines in the grindy fair BGx midrange decks.

    2) Relying on 2cmc and 3cmc enablers (Chain and Wheel) slows down the fundamental clock. When you get slower, you have to worry about getting raced by faster decks. Suddenly you need a better plan than "hope to kill them first". That means maindecking defensive cards. A turn 1 deck doesn't need to make space for those.

    3) You need more lands to not get screwed by mana denial before even casting those spells (Daze, Wasteland, Port, Blood Moon, Thalia).

    All of those pull the deck towards a more midrangey fair Madness build. Maybe there's a good deck there? It's worth exploring. But you would have to approach the whole deck construction philosophy differently than the current builds. It might be easier to start from scratch than trying to tweak MadVine by adding Chain and Wheel. For example maybe a midrangey version wants Fauna Shaman, fewer colors, more lands, and some basics? Many possibilities.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-23-2023 at 10:54 AM.

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