Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 63

Thread: Legacy Hollow-Vine

  1. #21
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I think more than anything it replaces Bloodghast, and once Bloodghast is out of the picture I think Prized Amalgam becomes a lot more suspect. With 8 self-returning creatures (VV/BGhast) Amalgam was worthwhile. Now I think Ox of Agonas is the better direction. KImps block Delver/Marit Lage and aggressively attack with haste. Having up to 8 1-mana flyers (Pimp, Kimp) also makes for an impressively aggressive creature package.
    Yeah, what you said is basically what motivated my switch to Ox + Ravager over Bloodghast + Amalgam. We can now create more pressure without as much graveyard vulnerability and while triggering Vengevine. Before MH2 I would not have considered that direction.

    Firestorm also makes an amazing Tireless Tribe effect once we are a Badlands deck. If opponent has even 1 creature, it is Searing Blaze + 0-mana Hollow One. With 2 creatures we are firing 4 damage at both and 4 at opponent's dome.

  2. #22

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    ...
    Firestorm also makes an amazing Tireless Tribe effect once we are a Badlands deck. If opponent has even 1 creature, it is Searing Blaze + 0-mana Hollow One. With 2 creatures we are firing 4 damage at both and 4 at opponent's dome.
    Don't you need X different targets for Firestorm?

  3. #23

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Don't you need X different targets for Firestorm?
    Yeah, in the 3 damage scenario you're hitting yourself, too; 4 damage 2 creatures the opponent and yourself, etc… Basically if you don’t get the max value out of the spell (killing 3 creatures or 2 creatures and Bolting the opponent) Firestorm is a burn spell, removal spell and like a self targeted Fiery Temper if you’re trying to enable a free Hollow One.

  4. #24

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    In case anyone is interested, this is a recent list I saw (ellaone - MTGO player) and reverse built after they decked themselves playing against Tony Murata (into_play) in a league. They also played this list against AnziD in the challenge today (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1053851031?t=9262s — 2:34:30 is the start of the match). No clue what the sideboard is.

    2 Ox of Agonas
    3 Anger
    4 Hollow One
    4 Vengevine
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Putrid Imp

    4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    4 Burning Inquiry
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Once Upon a Time

    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Taiga
    2 Mountain
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Badlands
    2 Arid Mesa

  5. #25
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Re above list: Not playing Kitchen Imp seems like a mistake. That card is pretty good for 1 mana. Anger seems good with T1 Hollow One but with just Rootwallas it seems worse than just making a 2/2 flying haste.

    OUAT seems good. Not a fan of Burning Inquiry, even if it can mess up opponent's hand. Street Wraith is pretty bad too. Maybe that slot should be Tireless Tribe.



    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Don't you need X different targets for Firestorm?
    Fail case X=2: Target opponent and yourself

    X=3: Target opponent, 1 creature, yourself

    X=4: Target opponent, 2 creatures, yourself

    Unless you're facing Burn or TES or opponent has many creatures out, you usually target yourself with Firestorm to get a free +1. This is an aggressive deck that also wants to discard most of the hand on turn 1. 1-mana Searing Blaze + discard outlet is worth taking 3 damage for. Even if you deal yourself 4 damage, it's a 1 mana Flame Rift + double Flame Slash + Tireless Tribe effect for 1 mana. That's insane value for a 1-mana on color instant. The only reason it isn't maindeck is it's awkward if your opponent doesn't have an early creature. But against any deck that usually plays a turn 1 creature, it's a beating.

  6. #26
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,202

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I would straight up cut Burning Inquiry for Kitchen Imp in that list
    It's a good thing they are splashing black because their combo matchups would be atrocious otherwise. Being explosive isn't enough against unopposed combo decks, they're going to wreck your face. Depths, Sneak/show, Storm, and elves are all faster with even mediocre draws. I think explosive aggro is decent against delver and the midrange blue decks, but still weak to ideal starts from opponents. I think it may be worth playing blue duals for Daze, or at least finding a way to include Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize maindeck.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #27

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Seeing Anger makes me wonder if there's an Entomb package that makes sense. The deck already runs several cards that work well with it. Phantasmagorian would turn Entomb into a discard outlet, and Coffin Purge would be nice sideboard tech.

  8. #28
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,202

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    If playing Hogaak, yes I could see an Entomb package. Otherwise this isn't Reanimator where you're all-in on one threat (Griselbrand), you need a critical mass of threats to be aggressive enough. One Vengevine won't do it. Honestly, I think the better card from the Anger cycle is Wonder. Flying is a lot more important than haste in most games.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  9. #29
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Tireless Tribe could still be good here and I think Kitchen Imp is too good not to play.

    Street Wraith and Burning Inquiry are the most questionable slots.


    //Creatures: 34
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Kitchen Imp
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One
    2 Ox of Agonas

    //Spells: 12
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Once Upon A Time

    //Lands: 14
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Mana Confluence
    3 City of Brass
    3 Cavern of Souls

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Firestorm
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Big Game Hunter


    Or -4 Tribe, - 1 OUAT, +2 Anger + 3 Therapy main and then stick to Jund mana

  10. #30
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,202

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I agree, Street Wraith is really only good if you have some way to use it in another capacity than a redraw, like Reanimate with Death's Shadow or some sort of Life from the Loam synergy. As the other thread has discussed, the best enablers are 1-mana creatures. Lotleth Troll is so close to good, but ultimately is worse than tweaking the mana-base and adding Tribe. However, with 8 Rootwallas it might be time to reevaluate it as a possible 2-of. I'm looking in that direction for my SHIV deck. OUAT is probably the most polarized card of the deck: it's busted free but embarrassing after t1. I didn't mind discarding it with Imp if I drew it, just to feed mid-game Hollow Ones.

    Lion's Eye Diamond puts you all-in, basically on Anje's Ravager and maybe a free Rootwalla or 2. The re-draw is cool with Ravager if you untap with it, but I need to see it in action to see what I'm missing. It just doesn't look that great. I was thinking this sort of deck really wants to be somewhat of a blitz deck: just blast a bunch of free/cheap dudes and hope it gets there. If there are 3-4 threats available then you can probably grind through, but if not and you're all in on a Ravager you are waiting for draw steps to make something happen. It's just not my style to give up that much agency in a game.

    What the deck really needs is a powerful engine, like Affinity now has with 8 Thoughtcast effects. I love that style of deck where you just play free 1/1's, 2/2's, and 4/4's and then draw more of them for U. I'm definitely going to build something with that synergy. Maybe something with convoke would be good here. EDIT: Hogaak is the best convoke card, hands down, because there aren't any convoke cards that say 'draw 2 cards'. Bummer.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #31
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    People are swearing by Burning Inquiry and getting results with it. Since most of the deck is happy to be discarded, it seems potentially explosive by digging 3 deep, but I really prefer lines where you have control of your hand. At least postboard it seems like the easiest cut for Firestorm.

    If we cut Tireless Tribe then Anger is playable off the Jund manabase. Decks with that and Burning Inquiry have gotten results and look like this.

    12th place Legacy Challenge: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...#cvxw_th_place

    //Creatures: 29
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One
    3 Anger
    2 Ox of Agonas

    //Spells: 16
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Burning Inquiry
    4 Once Upon A Time

    //Lands: 15
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Badlands
    2 Taiga
    2 Mountain

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Firestorm
    3 Bone Shards
    3 Ancient Grudge
    2 Meltdown



    Asylum Visitor is also tech I've seen from other decks. It lets you dig out of being hellbent like Ravager and gives more payoff for LED. The all-in version might have to cut Hollow One due to lack of control

    MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nimatorfiend_-

    //Creatures: 32
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Kitchen Imp
    4 Asylum Visitor
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Vengevine
    2 Ox of Agonas
    2 Hogaak, Risen Necropolis

    //Spells: 12
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Burning Inquiry
    4 Faithless Looting

    //Lands: 16
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    4 Badlands
    3 Taiga
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Bone Shards
    2 Sudden Edict
    2 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Run Afoul
    2 Ancient Grudge



    Leyline over Faerie Macabre makes sense if they are discarding random cards from hand.

    If we stick with the Tireless Tribe tech, we lose Anger but get more control of discarded cards

    //Creatures: 35
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Kitchen Imp
    3 Asylum Visitor
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Spells: 10
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Faithless Looting
    4 Once Upon A Time

    //Lands: 15
    3 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 City of Brass

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Firestorm
    3 Bone Shards
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Meltdown
    2 Leyline of the Void
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Mindbreak Trap

  12. #32
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,202

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I've been watching some streams of Burning Inquiry in the deck and sometimes it's the nuts, sometimes it fucks the game sideways. The chaotic nature of it can sometimes mess with opponents, but it can mess with your plan, too. I'm not convinced Burning Inquiry is the best option, but it certainly adds flair to the strategy. If the deck stays RGx then it can do a lot of work, but I don't know how reliable it is. The card that has impressed me more than anything is Ox of Agonas, which single-handedly makes Burning Inquiry playable. Otherwise the risk of discarding your Hollow Ones while you have uncastable Vengevines in hand gets pretty awkward. The other part of the deck that impresses me is that it has a really good amount of inevitability. Sometimes you have 13 power on turn 1, sometimes you set up and get 13 power on turn 3-4. Against most legacy decks, that's likely good enough. Against others it's a little embarrassing. I also think the initial success comes from people mis-prioritizing their disruption (Forces, Thoughtseize, Daze.) Once the deck becomes a little more well known that will change and there will be windows of opportunity to shut the deck down. Still, the deck seems to be fairly resilient.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #33

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    I am not an expert with the deck, just recently picked it up for some games and I was more than impressed.
    For reference, I am currently playing this main deck:

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Vengevine
    4 Putrid Imp
    3 Anje's Ravager
    4 Hollow One
    2 Ox of Agonas
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Burning Inquiry

    2 Taiga
    2 Badlands
    2 Mountain
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills

    Regarding Burning Inquiry, for me it was always one way to run out T1 Hollow Ones.
    Also Street Wraith + Faithless Looting make up a good combo for Hollow One.

    I tested Kitchen Imp a bit, but was not impressed.
    He does not smoothly fit into the explosive lines and if he does, it is kinda awkward idk.
    And the payoff is not super great.

    I have not yet played much against ombo decks, but I assume it will be hard as suggested in this thread.

    These are just my two cents, I fell in love with the deck and want to see it improve.
    Unfortunaltey, I can just give some impressions that are not backed up by any statistics or sound reasoning :(
    However, maybe it will help the collective hive mind in some way :)

    Keep going mad with madness

  14. #34

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I've been watching some streams of Burning Inquiry in the deck and sometimes it's the nuts, sometimes it fucks the game sideways. The chaotic nature of it can sometimes mess with opponents, but it can mess with your plan, too. I'm not convinced Burning Inquiry is the best option, but it certainly adds flair to the strategy. If the deck stays RGx then it can do a lot of work, but I don't know how reliable it is. The card that has impressed me more than anything is Ox of Agonas, which single-handedly makes Burning Inquiry playable. Otherwise the risk of discarding your Hollow Ones while you have uncastable Vengevines in hand gets pretty awkward. The other part of the deck that impresses me is that it has a really good amount of inevitability. Sometimes you have 13 power on turn 1, sometimes you set up and get 13 power on turn 3-4. Against most legacy decks, that's likely good enough. Against others it's a little embarrassing. I also think the initial success comes from people mis-prioritizing their disruption (Forces, Thoughtseize, Daze.) Once the deck becomes a little more well known that will change and there will be windows of opportunity to shut the deck down. Still, the deck seems to be fairly resilient.
    From the videos I've watched that inevitability comes from its ability to reload so easily and continuously. With discard it really all depends on the hand you have to read their lines and try to disrupt it. LED is the card that gives them the absolutely most busted plays though. Nut draw is probably LED, Ravager, Anger, Rootwalla, x3 Vengevine.

    There's a good chance this deck deck is better as URB. Something like 4 Inquiry -> 4 Careful Study; 4 Once Upon a Time -> 2 Breakthrough; 2 Kitchen Imp.
    Last edited by Purple Blood; 06-27-2021 at 03:59 PM.

  15. #35

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Glad to see people have picked up this list. A little advice from someone who spent a lot of time tuning the list pre-mh2:

    -Asylum Visitor is too slow. Madness more than 0 is hard to justify, the only exception is Ravager because it draws so many cards

    -Street Wraith is important imo, otherwise you end up with uncastable hollow ones. It also feeds Oxes and marginally thins your deck. Just suck it up and accept the weird mulligans

    -Burning Inquiry sucks. Maybe this changed with the new rootwalla but I have yet to be convinced

    -Firestorm is maindeckable and mandatory. Right now people don't know about the list but it's only a matter of time before they realize they have to counter your discard outlets (LED, Faithless), having one that sidesteps countermagic is huge. It also lets you finish opponents in the late game, and of course is often your only piece of removal. Don't be afraid to deal damage to yourself

    -Don't bother siding in hate against combo, you can race it. The only concession is pyroblast because it's so versatile

    -Anger is very important for those explosive starts and t2 wins. If you aren't doing broken things you're doing it wrong

    -Hogaak is winmore and just worse than Ox

  16. #36

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Here's a RUG version from ThrabenU playing Breakthroughs, Careful Studies, and Cephalid Coliseum.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3tvjb3_mM4

  17. #37

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by madnessguy View Post
    Glad to see people have picked up this list. A little advice from someone who spent a lot of time tuning the list pre-mh2:

    -Asylum Visitor is too slow. Madness more than 0 is hard to justify, the only exception is Ravager because it draws so many cards

    -Street Wraith is important imo, otherwise you end up with uncastable hollow ones. It also feeds Oxes and marginally thins your deck. Just suck it up and accept the weird mulligans

    -Burning Inquiry sucks. Maybe this changed with the new rootwalla but I have yet to be convinced

    -Firestorm is maindeckable and mandatory. Right now people don't know about the list but it's only a matter of time before they realize they have to counter your discard outlets (LED, Faithless), having one that sidesteps countermagic is huge. It also lets you finish opponents in the late game, and of course is often your only piece of removal. Don't be afraid to deal damage to yourself

    -Don't bother siding in hate against combo, you can race it. The only concession is pyroblast because it's so versatile

    -Anger is very important for those explosive starts and t2 wins. If you aren't doing broken things you're doing it wrong

    -Hogaak is winmore and just worse than Ox

    I like the idea of main-decking Firestorm, the card is really great in the deck!

    Regarding Burning Inquiry, I think people do not like it because of bad beat stories they experienced with it. Because of that, the times it was really great are tend to be forgotten. Plus we should not underestimate the fact that it also sucks for our opponents, screwing their well-sculpted hands by chance, especially when you hold back the inquiry for later turns.
    But I also think that it is not a good T1 enabler because of randomness. 8 Putrid Imps would be better :)

  18. #38
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by madnessguy View Post
    Glad to see people have picked up this list. A little advice from someone who spent a lot of time tuning the list pre-mh2:

    -Asylum Visitor is too slow. Madness more than 0 is hard to justify, the only exception is Ravager because it draws so many cards

    -Street Wraith is important imo, otherwise you end up with uncastable hollow ones. It also feeds Oxes and marginally thins your deck. Just suck it up and accept the weird mulligans

    -Burning Inquiry sucks. Maybe this changed with the new rootwalla but I have yet to be convinced

    -Firestorm is maindeckable and mandatory. Right now people don't know about the list but it's only a matter of time before they realize they have to counter your discard outlets (LED, Faithless), having one that sidesteps countermagic is huge. It also lets you finish opponents in the late game, and of course is often your only piece of removal. Don't be afraid to deal damage to yourself

    -Don't bother siding in hate against combo, you can race it. The only concession is pyroblast because it's so versatile

    -Anger is very important for those explosive starts and t2 wins. If you aren't doing broken things you're doing it wrong

    -Hogaak is winmore and just worse than Ox
    Thanks for your comments! Good to have your experience with your RUG brew added.

    Street Wraith is unnecessary filler if you run more discard Xs (Putrid Imp, Lion's Eye Diamond). If you rely on discard 2s like Faithless Looting and Careful Study then SW helps Hollow One, but it's an inconsistent 2-card combo.

    Careful Study fails to enable Hollow One or even Vengevine (only discards 1 Rootwalla + Vengevine), so it leads to less explosive turn 1s.

    As Mr Safety said in the first post, we had been working on a different version of it (BGx instead of RUG) a long time back:
    BGx Vengevine Hollow One Madness: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...eholder-Thread

    That deck originally started as GB Vengevine Madness with a zombie tribal subtheme. Due to the lack of madness creatures back then, early builds also had to run graveyard creatures like Bloodghast and Gravecrawler. It featured the Carrion Feeder+Gravecrawler combo ("casts" from the graveyard for Vengevine) and sometimes Buried Alive to find 3xVengevine for more explosiveness. Buried Alive was a decent enabler back when the deck had Deathrite Shaman for acceleration but is too slow and vulnerable to hate otherwise.

    ReAnimator started that thread in 2017, though I had been developing and playing something similar way back in 2010-2012 after the Survival ban and then when Lotleth Troll was spoiled (replacing Wild Mongrel as a better on-tribe madness outlet). Early discussion on TheSource for Vengevine Madness after the Survival ban:
    Hanni's thread: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...gro-Vengevine)
    Gui's thread: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...engevine-Aggro
    With Lotleth Troll: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...1-BG-trollvine
    Most of my development at the time was done on another site, though my version is somewhere in that TrollVine thread. The deck was fun but always Tier 2-3.
    In 2012, Sam Black's Zombardment (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...ck-Zombardment) ended up being a better version of the zombie CarrionCrawler engine while having 8x discard to disrupt opponents.

    In 2017-2019 ReAnimator's Vengevine thread got renewed interest after Hollow One. The deck shifted to have more focus on Madness and explosive turn 1s. We compared a lot of different engines to make the most T1 Hollow Ones and Vengevines. We tried Burning Inquiry. We tried Faithless Looting + Careful Study + Breakthrough (the Dredge engine) with Street Wraith to help make Hollow One free. In testing it came out too inconsistent.

    Pre-MH2 we found the shell of 4 Putrid Imp + 4 Tireless Tribe + 2-4 other discard outlets led to the most consistent Hollow Ones and Vengevines. PImp/Tribe represents a 1-card engine that could enable T1 Hollow One (instead of 2-card combo Looting+SW). They counted as a creature cast so you only needed to discard 1 Rootwalla to make T1 Vengevine. You can also make them uncounterable with Cavern of Souls (which is big once the deck's surprise factor wears off and opponent learns they need to counter your discard outlet). 4 Once Upon A Time helped put a PImp/Tribe into your opening hand, find Cavern, or get more Hollow Ones and Vengevines. It smoothed everything the engine wanted. In pre-MH2 testing, that came out to be the most consistent shell we had for explosive turn 1 boards.

    We kept Firestorm in the SB, not main. If the opponent plays 0 early creatures then you can only cast for X=2 and it fails as an enabler (needs X different targets). However if the opponent has a turn 1 creature then it's amazing, so it got boarded in a lot as a 3-of or 4-of. Its value depends on the matchup.

    Big Game Hunter was SB tech to kill X/5 blockers like Goyf and Gurmag, creatures that would otherwise stop Vengevine and Hollow One and kill your momentum. It's also hilarious vs SneakShow (which had a bigger presence then), because you can either play it off Show and Tell or flash it in for B with Putrid Imp. Now Bone Shards has taken that SB spot, though instant-speed madness Hunter still has utility.

    Due to the lack of madness creatures pre-MH2, the deck had to rely on graveyard recursion (Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam), leaving it open to graveyard hate. Once Hogaak was printed, the deck added Hogaak and then the discussion just turned into Hogaak.dec because Hogaak was putting up better results. The thread turned into a placeholder thread for Hogaak and other Hollow-Vine discussions stopped.

    Later Mr Safety started a separate thread for Hollow One + Vengevine adding Death's Shadow as another angle of attack:
    https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...w-Hollow-Vine)

    Mr Safety started this new thread once MH2 revitalized the strategy. 8 Rootwallas really improves the engine's consistency so it can focus on explosive Madness and cut the grindier graveyard recursion pieces (weak to hate). I don't like Hogaak in this version of the deck but just mentioned it above when posting the Legacy Challenge/5-0 lists.

    The Jund version has put up the most tournament results so far.
    12th place Legacy Challenge June 20th: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...#cvxw_th_place
    MTGO 5-0: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...06-26#jcknox_-
    29th place Legacy Challenge June 27th: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...eling_th_place

    They're all on Burning Inquiry, but like you I'm not fully convinced. The draw 3 helps dig deeper into gas, but the variance will hit you eventually if you have cards like Hollow One and Mindbreak Trap that don't want to get discarded or if you draw opponent into an answer. It depends on the build and how many cards you don't want discarded. I do think Burning Inquiry has gotten a lot better though since MH2 added more madness creatures. You're happy to discard most of the deck and the discard 3 enables Hollow One if it stayed in hand (>60% chance).

    2 Ox seems really good. I used it in my janky Madness Stompy version of the deck, and found 2 Ox was the right number. With more copies you can end up just eating one Ox with another while having less gas in the opening hand.

    Anger is great explosive potential with Hollow Ones and should be in any deck with Mountain-typed lands. When we built the 8 Putrid Imp build (Tireless Tribe), we had to go with a rainbow manabase to have consistent mana. Anger doesn't work with City of Brass. If there was another Putrid Imp in Jund colors then it would be a no-brainer to run that over Tribe and get Anger. Currently, we have to choose between having 8 PImps and having Anger. Not sure which is better yet.

    Without 8 PImps, Burning Inquiry is probably necessary. I'm not sold on Careful Study+Street Wraith to get discard 3. In our past testing that was too inconsistent and we cut blue. Similarly maindeck Firestorm can slow you down (only discard 2) if opponent doesn't play an early creature. The discard 2s all fall short of making enough threats on turn 1. They can't enable Hollow One or Vengevine (if it's a noncreature discard outlet, you can only discard 1 Rootwalla + Vengevine) so it just makes small things or sets up for turn 2. Out of all the discard 2s, Faithless Looting is much better because you can flash it back with LED mana.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-29-2021 at 01:27 PM.

  19. #39
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,270

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    This is Hanni's 5c build from a few years ago (so you don't have to dig through all those threads):

    //Lands: 14
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    2 City of Brass

    //Enablers: 10
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    2 Lotleth Troll

    //Other creatures: 24
    2 Gravecrawler
    2 Carrion Feeder
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Spells: 12
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Gamble

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Firestorm
    2 Stain the Mind
    0-3 Faerie Macabre
    1-2 Big Game Hunter
    0-4 Fragmentize
    0-3 Force of Vigor
    x Silent Gravestone
    x Leyline of Sanctity
    x Vengeful Pharaoh
    x Collector Ouphe


    Once Upon A Time replaced Gamble once printed, though Gamble is still good at finding enablers or answers.

    Ox of Agonas and Hogaak made some appearances after their printings.

    Mr Safety experimented with more Jund builds. Faithless Looting was in some of these builds, though discard 2 is not explosive enough on its own. In other threads we also looked at RUG builds with Careful Study and Faithless Looting + Street Wraith, and then Anje's Ravager and even the janky Bazaar Trademage (because it count as a creature cast and had the critical "discard 3" instead of "discard 2"). Being able to draw more cards to refuel was amazing, but discard 2 was always a bit underwhelming.

    Pre-MH2 we had the best results with the 5c build because 8-10x Putrid Imp was the best enabler. It lets you control exactly what cards to discard, discard exactly enough to enable T1 Vine and T1 Hollow One, or slow roll around hate. PImp also sacrifices to Cabal Therapy so you can strip the opponent's outs without losing an important attacker.

    The engine worked but the payoffs weren't as good then. Carrion Feeder + Gravecrawler used to be good ages ago, but became the worst part of the deck. Bloodghast + Amalgam became too durdly too and made the deck weak to grave hate. That version of the deck added Stitcher's Supplier and then morphed into Legacy Hogaak. Since MH2, MadVine can differentiate by running the new madness creatures and less graveyard dependence. This is what the new Jund builds are doing. Then the SB doesn't need Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor and Silent Gravestone to beat grave hate, which frees up a lot of space, and the win% goes up.

    An MH2 version of Hanni's 5c build would probably look like this

    //Lands: 14
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 City of Brass

    //Core Creatures: 28
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Blazing Rootwalla
    4 Kitchen Imp
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One

    //Flex Creatures: 6
    2 Lotleth Troll
    2 Anje's Ravager
    2 Ox of Agonas

    //Spells: 12
    4 Once Upon A Time
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Cabal Therapy

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Firestorm
    2 Stain the Mind
    2 Bone Shards
    3 Ancient Grudge
    2 Mindbreak Trap


    Without fetchlands and with fewer draw+discard spells, Ox gets worse, so maybe -2 Ox +2 Ravager.

    The 8PImp build is better able to use SB cards like Mindbreak Trap because it has more control over what cards are discarded and what cards are kept. With LED + Burning Inquiry those cards are worse. Disruption can be useful. Game 2 OTD MadVine can't race BR Reanimator, TES, Hogaak, and random things like Echo storm. They will get 2 turns first. Even Turbo Depths can sometimes race going first (blocking with T2 Marit Lage, then attacking).

    Slower refueling cards like Anje's Ravager and Asylum Visitor are more viable with the 8 PImp build, because you can deploy it on turn 2 to refuel if your turn 1 was disrupted. This is only possible with free instant-speed control over discards. Those creatures are much worse with Faithless Looting and Burning Inquiry (costs mana to discard). 8 PImp is better at explosive Vengevines and Hollow Ones and at saving cards in hand to disrupt opponents. 8 PImp is uncounterable with Cavern, while the other discard engines get stopped by FoW. The downside to 8 PImp is it doesn't draw cards so it runs out of gas more easily. That's where Ravager and Asylum Visitor could make up for a deficit. 8PImp needs more card draw to recover, but also does a better job of enabling the 2-mana madness guys.

    I would probably modify that above shell to run 4 LEDs (instead of Lotleth) and then the full set of Ravagers. Hanni was opposed to playing LED + Hollow One together, though LED is so explosive.
    LED also works well with Asylum Visitor.
    LED casts Asylum Visitor + Kitchen Imp (or multiple Imps)
    LED + land casts 2x Asylum Visitor, 2x Anje's Ravager, 1 Visitor + 1 Ravager, or 1 Ravager + 2 Kitchen Imps.

    I think Visitor at least deserves testing as Ravager #5. But it could be worse than just going faster.

    It could also be worth playing 8PImp with Mardu lands (RBW), which would allow Anger. There would be a minor cost of not being able to pump Basking Rootwalla or hardcast Vengevine, but that's rarely relevant.

  20. #40

    Re: Legacy Hollow-Vine

    For the record I've never paid much attention to the blue version which I dropped for the reasons you provided. Pure Rg is more explosive and has fewer mana issues. I developed this deck more or less independently by drawing from the Survival vintage deck.

    I maintain that Firestorm is mandatory and maindeckable. Everyone plays creatures nowadays and if you're playing against a deck that doesn't you have other problems in mind and whatever card you want to replace firestorm with won't help. You really want a discard outlet that ignores countermagic. Having to run Caverns for imps/tribes means your mana sucks and you can't run mountains for Anger, and Anger is necessary for t2 wins.

    Idk why people don't like Street Wraith. The opportunity cost of having this card in your deck is so low.

    Seasoned Pyromancer (and maybe Rix Maadi) deserves a second look as grindy cards. No one expects them, anyway.

    Asylum Visitor sucks. Believe me when I say I tried everything (like Falkenrath Gorger, or Manabond, or Squee, or Chain of Smog) and the Visitor just doesn't do anything. It'll get stuck in your hand because of its stupid madness cost. Oftentimes it's just a 3/1 for 2, and it dies to literally anything. Every once in a while it'll get you killed in a race.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)