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Thread: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks?

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Fetchable horizon canopies.

    Thats how you get everyone to change.

  2. #22
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    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Fetchable horizon canopies.

    Thats how you get everyone to change.
    Sounds dope to me.

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  3. #23
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    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Given that they went out of their way to ban them in Historic, and will probably soon add Prismatic Vista to that list and maybe even Guided Passage, I think it's safe to say that Wizards recognizes that fetchlands are just bad game design, and responsible for almost all of the cards that have been banned in Legacy for instance in the past decade or so- Astrolabe, delve cards, Deathrite, Top, W&6 etc. would all still be legal if fetchlands were banned instead. Hell even Survival would be pretty fair.

    It seems silly then to imagine them printing more of the fucking things
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  4. #24

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That's a fair point.

    Another option would be to errata all of the different dual lands to their corresponding land types, ie Woodland Cemetery is now a Forest Swamp. Honestly, it would make a lot of sense to do this, it's a logical move. It wouldn't be perfect, but a land like Blooming Marsh would be practically identical to Bayou because legacy runs on such a low land count.
    I actually really love the idea to errata some of the other dual lands to have the land types added to them.

    If they’re willing to errata all the infect creatures for flavor reasons, even if it hurts infect players, they could easily errata these lands to make them more playable and useful in the eternal formats.

    The main reason not to would be because they wont make as much money as they would selling players new duals and secret lair shocks every few years. But if the players demand them to, they *might* just to make the players happy.

    It wont violate the reserve list and will have zero impact on the price of duals but it will make everyones non dual lands more useful.

    That will make...

    1. A lot of wotc customers happy.
    2. Bridge the gap between the powerlevel of budget legacy/modern decks and nonbudget decks.
    3. Make a lot of the duals lands that stores are sitting on more valuable and increase their sellable inventory.
    4. Lead to some modern and pioneer players trying their hand at legacy and potentially rejuvenate an eternal format.

    I dont know why people keep claiming wizards doesnt care about legacy. Yes they wont violate the reserve list due to fear of a lawsuit, but thats not evidence that they dont care about legacy.

    Legacy players are among Magics longest and most loyal customers.

    Legacy, Vintage and commander are the only eternal formats. God knows Vintage is never going to be a paper format again but Legacy very well could. Eternal formats show the history of the game and older games gain more respect. MtG being a 30 yr old game is precisely why people are willing to spend more money on it than they would be into a 5 yr old game. So a errata like this that could make legacy far more accessible to more players without violating the reserve list would be a wonderful thing for both the format and for hasbro in the long run.

    Making loyal long term customers happy is a good thing for a company like hasbro to do every once in a while.

  5. #25

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That's a fair point.

    Another option would be to errata all of the different dual lands to their corresponding land types, ie Woodland Cemetery is now a Forest Swamp. Honestly, it would make a lot of sense to do this, it's a logical move. It wouldn't be perfect, but a land like Blooming Marsh would be practically identical to Bayou because legacy runs on such a low land count.
    Mr. Safety, is there any possibility that you could update the thread title to...

    Do you think Wizards should errata some of the older lands to make them fetchable, and would that make legacy friendlier to cheaper non reserve list manabases?

  6. #26

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Mr. Safety, is there any possibility that you could update the thread title to...

    Do you think Wizards should errata some of the older lands to make them fetchable, and would that make legacy friendlier to cheaper non reserve list manabases?
    It's absolutely naive to expect something like that.

    Creature type erratas are one thing, fully functional erratas something else.
    They only rarely do functional errata, mostly when they screwed up the wording on a new card (Hi, Hostage Taker) or a new card/mechanic is introduced that plays badly with something they don't really care about because it was printed in Visions or some other ancient set.
    Sometimes they get the bright idea to "restore a card to it's intended functionality".
    That is either completely irrelevant or busted like Flash or Time Vault.

    Adding basic types to random duals also has much more implications and many more interactions then being fetchable.

    As previously stated, fetches themselves are terrible and created more and more issues as the years go on.
    At least they started to realize that and banned them in Pioneer.
    Pioneer itself shows their current "long term plan" for eternal formats.
    Every few years introduce a new "eternal" format with an arbitrary cutoff date and push that.
    Then they ramp down the support for older "eternal" formats and let them die/let people be priced out.
    As result people switch to the newer format and have to buy more cards.
    It's much easier and profitable for them to just let Legacy die then support it longer.
    Considering some recent printings I wouldn't be surprised if they are actively trying to kill it.

  7. #27

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Just for funsies, consider:


    Mangrove Forest
    Land - Forest
    Uncommon

    T: Add G or U or B


    Somewhat less fetchable, way better than a dual (it's a triple!), doesn't violate the reserved list, and at uncommon it's not going to break the bank.



    Not unlike Murmuring Bosk, really, so there's some precedent along those lines, even if this is strictly better than that.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Making loyal long term customers happy is a good thing for a company like hasbro to do every once in a while.
    I assume "long term customers" means Vintage and Legacy players? Hasbro will "once in a while" release a Modern Horizons-type set to distract those customers with shiny new toys. This of course lasts for 5 minutes, then threads like this one pop up.
    Hasbro only needs to put out a Horizons set to get some cash from Eternal players because most already have cards and rely solely on the secondary market for new singles. The money comes from new players who buy packs for Standard. I'm 100% sure that such net-new players' spending dwarfs the average Eternal (minus EDH) players' spending on sealed product.
    TLDR, It's been said so many times before,Hasbro doesn't care about Vintage and Legacy because they can't monetize this market.
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  9. #29

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    It's absolutely naive to expect something like that.

    Creature type erratas are one thing, fully functional erratas something else.
    Changing all the infect creatures and Inkmoth Nexus to make them Phyrexians is a functional errata. It makes them all die to Engineer.

    If that is okay, then erratating Blooming Marsh to be a forest swamp is no different.

    Errata only the duals like Blooming Marsh where it makes sense to do so and keeps the duals inferior to the reserve list cards. Hell package the errataed lands together into a secret lair and lots of legacy players would buy them as cheap alternatives to $1000 dual lands ($4000 for a playset).

  10. #30

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    At least they started to realize that and banned them in Pioneer.
    Pioneer itself shows their current "long term plan" for eternal formats.
    Every few years introduce a new "eternal" format with an arbitrary cutoff date and push that.
    Then they ramp down the support for older "eternal" formats and let them die/let people be priced out.
    As result people switch to the newer format and have to buy more cards.
    It's much easier and profitable for them to just let Legacy die then support it longer.
    Considering some recent printings I wouldn't be surprised if they are actively trying to kill it.
    You had me until here. Pioneer isn't indicative of any eternal plans and they've basically dropped off a cliff.
    Also between premodern, old school, middle school and whatever else the community is making more non-rotating formats then anyone else

  11. #31

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You had me until here. Pioneer isn't indicative of any eternal plans and they've basically dropped off a cliff.
    Also between premodern, old school, middle school and whatever else the community is making more non-rotating formats then anyone else
    Well, I would agree that Pioneer is a special case.
    They were basically forced to create it to take the steam of Frontier.
    However, they also cannot sanction too many formats a time to not fragmentize the player base too much.
    At this point it think I would have made more sense to bring back Extended.
    That is reasonably "eternal" while also offering the possibility to get rid of degenerate cards by rotation.
    Small community formats will always be a thing but most of them don't get enough attention or die due to the community being shit at managing anything.
    RIP Highlander, screw Commander.

  12. #32

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Changing all the infect creatures and Inkmoth Nexus to make them Phyrexians is a functional errata. It makes them all die to Engineer.

    If that is okay, then erratating Blooming Marsh to be a forest swamp is no different.

    Errata only the duals like Blooming Marsh where it makes sense to do so and keeps the duals inferior to the reserve list cards. Hell package the errataed lands together into a secret lair and lots of legacy players would buy them as cheap alternatives to $1000 dual lands ($4000 for a playset).
    Errata only the duals like Blooming Marsh where it makes sense to do so and keeps the duals inferior to the reserve list cards.
    inferior to the reserve list cards.






    You already got the answer to this from user "Purple Blood" in the MH2 preview thread, why do you need to make another thread about it

    I don't see how that is a solution. When it comes to competitive play, its obviously not a solution because no matter what its a competitive disadvantage. When it comes to non-competitive play, proxies are already commonplace so this changes nothing as anyone would rather just proxy a dual than play with suboptimal cards.
    Please just stop posting lol

  13. #33

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    The whole point of this endeavor is to make large sanctioned paper legacy a possibility again, with stores getting wotc rewards for hosting legacy tournaments. That will never happen as long as wotc refuses to acknowledge legacy events with legal proxies and duals and cities and cradles cost $500 and rising every year and the duals remain substantially superior to all alternatives. You can tackle any of those issues, asking wotc to sanction and reward stores for holding tournaments even if they allow proxies, asking for the reserve list to be done away with, asking for new duals that are much closer in powerlevel to the original duals (they make your opponent gain a life or peek at a random card in your hand when they enter the battlefield untapped) or asking that the fastlands be errataed to be made fetchable.

    Fetchable fastlands will never be quite as good as duals, but a list with a 1 of fetchable fastland along with 4 on color fetches, 4 prismatic vista and 5 basics will perform just as well as an identical list with reserve list duals instead of fastlands 99% of the time. And that will be good enough for people on a budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    At this point it think I would have made more sense to bring back Extended.
    That is reasonably "eternal" while also offering the possibility to get rid of degenerate cards by rotation.
    God no. Very happy they went with a nonrotating format instead of reintroducing extended.

    They consistently print as many degenerate cards every year as rotate out so that reason doesnt make sense.

    The whole appeal of nonrotating formats like legacy, modern, pioneer, commander and historic is that your decks and cards continue to be legal no matter how much time has passed since you first started playing magic. This is why Brawl will never be as appealing as Commander, and its also why magic players that rotate out of standard stuck around to keep playing modern and legacy decades later, because their favorite cards and decks from when they first started playing magic are only legal in those formats. Pioneer is still new. Modern took some time to accumulate players as well. Give pioneer another decade to accumulate a critical mass of magic players whose favorite cards and decks that they are most nostalgic towards are all from pioneer legal sets, and it could become the next modern.

    Wizards unfortunately did sabotage Pioneer by adding nonpioneer legal cards to Historic instead of just expanding Historic by releasing older sets until all Pioneer legal sets make their way onto arena.

    But I expect this will be fixed in the next few years quite easily. They will eventually print a Pioneer Horizons set, might even give it a name like Historic Pioneer. The paper version of the set will include all cards that were added to Historic on Arena, while the Arena release of Pioneer Horizons will include all Pioneer cards that havent been printed into Arena yet. Then, they can simply rename Pioneer into Historic or vice versa and this new format will thrive. Hell it will probably even displace modern as the most popular nonrotating 1vs1 format if Arena continues to grow.

  14. #34

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    The whole point of this endeavor is to make large sanctioned paper legacy a possibility again, with stores getting wotc rewards for hosting legacy tournaments. That will never happen as long as wotc refuses to acknowledge legacy events with legal proxies and duals and cities and cradles cost $500 and rising every year and the duals remain substantially superior to all alternatives.
    Ok

    You can tackle any of those issues, asking wotc to sanction and reward stores for holding tournaments even if they allow proxies
    Doesn't seem likely because then what's the incentive for wotc

    asking for the reserve list to be done away with
    Has already been tried ad nauseam

    asking for new duals that are much closer in powerlevel to the original duals (they make your opponent gain a life or peek at a random card in your hand when they enter the battlefield untapped) or asking that the fastlands be errataed to be made fetchable.
    This isn't a useful suggestion, as people keep trying to explain to you while you just outright ignore them over and over

    Fetchable fastlands will never be quite as good as duals, but a list with a 1 of fetchable fastland along with 4 on color fetches, 4 prismatic vista and 5 basics will perform just as well as an identical list with reserve list duals instead of fastlands 99% of the time. And that will be good enough for people on a budget.
    "Fetchable shocklands will never be quite as good as duals, but a list with a 1 of fetchable shockland along with 4 on color fetches, 4 prismatic vista and 5 basics will perform just as well as an identical list with reserve list duals instead of shocklands 99% of the time. And that will be good enough for people on a budget"

    The whole appeal of nonrotating formats like legacy, modern, pioneer, commander and historic is that your decks and cards continue to be legal no matter how much time has passed since you first started playing magic. This is why Brawl will never be as appealing as Commander, and its also why magic players that rotate out of standard stuck around to keep playing modern and legacy decades later, because their favorite cards and decks from when they first started playing magic are only legal in those formats. Pioneer is still new. Modern took some time to accumulate players as well. Give pioneer another decade to accumulate a critical mass of magic players whose favorite cards and decks that they are most nostalgic towards are all from pioneer legal sets, and it could become the next modern.
    The idea that people like eternal formats because it lets people continue to play the same archetype they loved from a separate different format is kind of a myth I think. Most of the viable decks in legacy/pioneer/modern bear no resemblance to any archetype from old standards/extendeds (barring a few particular exceptions like maybe Goblins and Enchantress). As the formats grow bigger (more powerful / bigger card pool) it becomes less and less likely that any given standard deck will be able to "cross over" into a given eternal format and it even becomes less likely that individual cards from standard are even good enough to compete.

    People like eternal formats because
    1. They want to be able to buy into a format and have their deck be relevant for an extended period of time (not necessarily using cards they already happen to own or have used in the past)
    2. They want some kind of tournament support for it so they can actually play

    When modern was introduced it was 32 sets which is (almost?) exactly the same size as Pioneer when Pioneer was introduced so in terms of the cardpool being stable (and early format bans etc) they aren't too different.

    The big difference is
    - Pioneer now is competing with modern to some extent which has had players committing to it for many years prior, so even if their introductory offerings are comparable Pioneer would still have a lot of "catching up" to do in terms of appeal
    - Modern mostly had tournament support due to quite significant initial commitment from WOTC and this hasn't been possible for pioneer because of COVID

    Wizards unfortunately did sabotage Pioneer by adding nonpioneer legal cards to Historic instead of just expanding Historic by releasing older sets until all Pioneer legal sets make their way onto arena.
    If you're just saying "pioneer would be more popular if it was on Arena instead of Historic" then sure

    But I expect this will be fixed in the next few years quite easily. They will eventually print a Pioneer Horizons set, might even give it a name like Historic Pioneer. The paper version of the set will include all cards that were added to Historic on Arena, while the Arena release of Pioneer Horizons will include all Pioneer cards that havent been printed into Arena yet. Then, they can simply rename Pioneer into Historic or vice versa and this new format will thrive. Hell it will probably even displace modern as the most popular nonrotating 1vs1 format if Arena continues to grow.
    I think the chances of this happening are close to zero
    EDIT: upon further reflection I have revised my initial knee-jerk reaction to the somewhat more moderate "very unlikely"

  15. #35

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    - Pioneer now is competing with modern to some extent
    "some"

  16. #36
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    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    So, the Reverberate fiasco taught us nothing

    They don't print cards that mimic "Good Cards(tm)" from the RP, they tried it with Fork-but-not and their social media messaging was all "so, we got in trouble for Reverberate" and they spent a lot of time talking about how they aren't gonna do that anymore. I promise you if they took enough shit for Reverberate being too close to Fork to generate public apologies then they'll never do anything that edges too close to duals.

    Even if that weren't true, 4DogHorse is right about not wanting to make fetchlands more better
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  17. #37

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    The best idea in this thread was the fetchable duals with only one basic land type. But if I had to bet, WOTC would say that would violate their RL policy.

    If that's true then the only way they could make it work is through extremely inelegant means. For example, printing fetchable dual/tri-lands that had a requirement to enter into play untapped that were specific but trivial for certain decks to achieve. A ridiculous, specific example would be something like "enters untapped if [you are playing legacy format / you have X card in your deck / other stupid condition]"

    I don't like any of these options to be honest. In the end I couldn't really care less considering the only time I'm playing Legacy in paper is at my LGS that allows proxies. I would assume most people are in that boat or exclusively play online.

  18. #38

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    The best idea in this thread was the fetchable duals with only one basic land type. But if I had to bet, WOTC would say that would violate their RL policy.

    If that's true then the only way they could make it work is through extremely inelegant means. For example, printing fetchable dual/tri-lands that had a requirement to enter into play untapped that were specific but trivial for certain decks to achieve. A ridiculous, specific example would be something like "enters untapped if [you are playing legacy format / you have X card in your deck / other stupid condition]"

    I don't like any of these options to be honest. In the end I couldn't really care less considering the only time I'm playing Legacy in paper is at my LGS that allows proxies. I would assume most people are in that boat or exclusively play online.
    Bosk already exists and the RL list is just a wink wink fiction.

  19. #39

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Bosk already exists and the RL list is just a wink wink fiction.
    Yeah but it makes you take damage. It would have to be Bosk without the damage but with the other clause.
    Last edited by Purple Blood; 06-18-2021 at 09:08 PM.

  20. #40

    Re: Do you think Wizards will ever again print dual lands that are better than shocks

    Of course they will print better duals than shocks one day. They will straight up reprint ABUR duals and sell it to you via Scamalot Lair...
    it's not like they've never removed cards from the Reserve List before. 23 if I'm correct.

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