Didn't they get a lot of shit for that?
Also that was ages ago even for for wizards who change things every other year.
Even though almost everyone who would complain about the fall of the RL would probably deserve it, I think wizards are for once too afraid to meddle with the "natural order".
Not really.. it's a very loud minority that's against abolishing the RL. And it was back then. They've even reprinted one of the RL cards into a regular set by accident once.. Nobody sued them. And what would Wizards actually be sued for? One doesn't lose money if the prices of, for example, duals would plummet. One would at most loose a possible profit. IF duals plummet in price due to reprints. And that is something every sane person should doubt. Alpha bolt is what? -700 even though there are 45+ reprints. It's still the desireable original. M11 Bolt has next to none collectable value.
My guess is, if there was a lawsuit, they'd simply win it. They'd lose some of there reputation for not holding a promise(wouldn't be the first time) and yes it might cost them some money, but... they'd also gain a shit ton of reputation for finally owning up to a really stupid mistake, making the game more accessible for a lot of people that would drown them in ten times the money they might have lost in a courtcase, and could finally get rid of the bad reputaion of being the greediest company right after BP, Pfizer and Activision. (Edit: While in reality they could get even greedier with the Lairs - win win)
Talking about a possible lawsuit - wouldn't those Big Boy Investors lose money if Wizards decided to ban all reserve list cards in every single format including Vintage? I'm pretty sure this would be the number one way to make ABUR duals prices drop by a significant enough amount to make anyone cry.
But I'm getting offtopic here.. this has been discussed before and no soulution was ever found..
I just strongly believe they will sooner or later reprint the real deal, scam us 150 per piece and call it day. Deep in your heart you know it's true.
They're not even that loud. I don't think I've met a single person in twenty years of playing this game that is pro reserved list.
Funny, in the other thread you seemed to think it was a legally-binding document.
I think I encountered a few online 10-15 years ago or more, but I also think they were seriously underestimating the collector's market and the state of eternal formats. Regardless, I actually agree with you on this: the RL serves basically nobody at this point, and it's not clear it ever did, really.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment
Around 2010 WotC invited Ben Bleiweiss (who was like the inventory manager for SCG at the time or at least someone who had a very publicly-known vested interest in the value of MTG cards) and Stephen Menendian (who was similarly a very well-known player of eternal formats at the time) to WOTC HQ to discuss the topic of whether the reserved list should continued to exist or not.Not really.. it's a very loud minority that's against abolishing the RL. And it was back then. They've even reprinted one of the RL cards into a regular set by accident once.. Nobody sued them. And what would Wizards actually be sued for?
https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...reserved-list/
Both of them put forward the position that the reserved list should not exist.
However in that SCG article linked above you see mention of the upcoming (at the time) FTV relics which was known to contain Masticore (a RL card) and later had Mox Diamond (another RL card) in it. Also the Phyrexia Duel deck with Phyrexian Negator, another RL card.
WotC did experience legal pressure in the wake of these specific reprints which is why they apparently ignored the advice of Menendian/Bleiweiss and later strengthened the reserved list rather than removing it. This was confirmed to me by Gavin Verhey. It's the only justification that makes sense for why they wouldn't roll back the reserved list
This statement is idioticOne doesn't lose money if the prices of, for example, duals would plummet. One would at most loose a possible profit.
This is also an entirely unconvincing argument because you're just cherrypicking an example that favours the point you are trying to make.IF duals plummet in price due to reprints. And that is something every sane person should doubt. Alpha bolt is what? -700 even though there are 45+ reprints. It's still the desireable original. M11 Bolt has next to none collectable value.
This idea is also how I feel about it but the "they would simply win it" part is dependent on professional legal knowledge and most armchair donks don't have any real idea and are just speculating on whether it's actually true or not.My guess is, if there was a lawsuit, they'd simply win it. They'd lose some of there reputation for not holding a promise(wouldn't be the first time) and yes it might cost them some money, but... they'd also gain a shit ton of reputation for finally owning up to a really stupid mistake, making the game more accessible for a lot of people that would drown them in ten times the money they might have lost in a courtcase, and could finally get rid of the bad reputaion of being the greediest company right after BP, Pfizer and Activision. (Edit: While in reality they could get even greedier with the Lairs - win win)
There's really no point discussing this topic of the RL at all outside of people with the legal credibility/qualifications to make a meaningful/accurate assessment of it (which isn't me either)
So you're saying I have a good chance at sueing Wizards for my loss of money over Oko for example... I could've cashed out for much more than it's worth now. Sure no promises were made here but it's basically the same.
Nah, I'm giving an example. Could've named numerous other cards like Stp oder simply Alpha basics. But that gets tedious quick and won't help with people like you that are cherrypicking satements to prove that their authors are supposedly cherrypicking.
Speculating.. that is exactly what I did. Thought I made that obvious enough by using words like "guess, believe, would"..
Well, obviously not obvious for everyone.
But let's end this here. My english isn't good enough to really clarify my point as deep as I would like to and I'm not here for getting called names.
You wont convince me, I wont convince you.
I believe they print better duals than shocks and these duals will be the ABUR ones.
Lands like this would be perfect addition for the next set release catered at Commander.
The important difference is exactly that no promise was made. "basically the same" except for the one crucial factor might as well be not the same at allSo you're saying I have a good chance at sueing Wizards for my loss of money over Oko for example... I could've cashed out for much more than it's worth now. Sure no promises were made here but it's basically the same.
Would the price of e.g. revised duals and unl power drop by a noticeable amount? Yes. So it doesn't matter how many counterexamples you can find of cards that wouldn't be affected (much) because collectors can easily make a case that the RL is affecting the value of their investmentNah, I'm giving an example. Could've named numerous other cards like Stp oder simply Alpha basics. But that gets tedious quick and won't help with people like you that are cherrypicking satements to prove that their authors are supposedly cherrypicking.
Sure this isn't some terrible sin or anything and it's good that you admit you don't know much more than a guess but I just get tired of people confidently asserting things like this, and the conversations on this topic just repeating the same pointsSpeculating.. that is exactly what I did. Thought I made that obvious enough by using words like "guess, believe, would"..
Well, obviously not obvious for everyone.
If you're trying to make the point that wotc printed both of these cards and didn't receive any backlash (I can't infer any other meaning from that post)Sinkhole and Dreadnought
A) Sinkhole isn't on the reserved list
B) Phyrexian Dreadnought judge foil was printed in 2010, same year as FTV relic
What was the word again?.. ah wait.. ah speculation! You simply cannot proof that. As much as I cannot proof the opposite.
Obviously not tired enough to leave us clueless peasents alone. Admitting to something that a person with reading comprehension can undoubtedly see? Giggles. I don't understand why you have to be like that.
The question was if Wizards will ever print better duals than shocks. A lot of people believe they'll do it in the form of legandary duals, scry duals, drawback duals, reveal random card or whatever duals.
And I happen to strongly believe (google it up, it's something different than "to know sth.") that they'll abolish, revise, change or do whatever to the RL so that they can reprint the ABUR ones.
I could've just written:"Yes, I do" but I thought it it would be better to clarify in what sort of duals I believed. Big mistake on my side as I see.
But it once was.
Proof that they've already found a way around their policy at least once.
It's their rule, I think (a difference from knowing here again) they can change it in whatever way they see fit.
They've removed Sinkhole in 2002, and after the FTV debacle they changed the wording of the RL to incorporate the following..
"In consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be removed from this list."
Before that they gave themself a loophole for special editions like Judge Promo yadayada...
My point is, they've changed it.
Why not change it to "In consideration of weighing in past commitments vs popular demand..."
But we can't convince kiwi anyways.
You've seen his overly provocative and hostile behaviour.
He's just in here to argue for the sake of arguing, ripping statements out of context to make a point and overall accusing us of speculation in a thread speculative by nature.
I'm a saint
Ultimately the point is that you don't need to convince ME. I WANT the reserved list to go away.
And I happen to strongly believe (google it up, it's something different than "to know sth.") that they'll abolish, revise, change or do whatever to the RL so that they can reprint the ABUR ones.It's their rule, I think (a difference from knowing here again) they can change it in whatever way they see fit.If it's so simple why haven't they already done it? It would be free money for WotC/Hasbro. The only possible explanation is that they legally believe it is not an option available to them. If you legally believe that it is an option then that's cool but again you don't need to convince ME (or the majority of the playerbase which already thinks removing the reserved list is a good idea)Why not change it to "In consideration of weighing in past commitments vs popular demand..."
Therefore
If you think you have a good argument for why the reserved list can be removed then you should write a letter to Hasbro offering your services as a consultant to their legal department because that is the only way you are ever going to change anything.
Writing forum posts about it is just a complete waste of time.
Probably because they don't want to... yet. There are loads of possible explanations.
Why would I want to do that? Writing a letter to a multibilion dollar company about them changing something I don't even really care about and asking for a job I'm neither qualified for, nor interested in, is the ultimate form of wasting time.
Typing my nonsense into a forum on the other hand, is quite enjoyable and makes me forget my day to day sorrows. And quite honestly you seem to have found the same enjoyment in our little exchange. Do you already have a pen pal?
Still the question was, will they print better duals than shocks. And I think, yes they will. And I think it will be the ABUR ones sooner or later. No proof, no hint, no nothing. I just believe it will happen. I didn't even want to argue about RL stuff.
The reserved list is not a legal document. It's a company policy, nothing more. Let's not let our armchair lawyering go too far, here.
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot
RIP Ari
Legacy UGB River Rock primer Click here to comment
Because they're a publicly traded company and need to have constant growth forever or be gutted and sold for parts. So they have this emergency revenue stream that they can break open exactly once and now is not the time because of whatever their consultants say.
Or they just have their own crazy Musk telling them about the future sand the future isn't dual lands or whatever.
Or there's a holdout from the original artists and they don't want to release them with only 8 of the original arts.
Maybe they dislike you personally and aren't printing them because it makes you wrong and they giggle every time you post this.
When the RL discussion turns into a debate over legal ramifications I always laugh. The best theory a prospective plaintiff could come up with is promissory estoppel and even then, that is incredibly tenuous. It safe to say that potential legal blow-back cannot possibly be the reason for any of their RL policies.
The can always weasel their way around the RL - e.g. Maro: "today we're clarifying our long-held internal policy that the RL means we will not be printing those cards in a Standard legal set."
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