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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #441
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    11 of them are suicidal, and there's Mox Diamond. 25 lands is the only way to fit in that many Sagas, Gardens and Wastelands without compromising the colored mana or turn 1 blue for cantrips. I like that Ark4n's deck has 0 Dress Down because Dress Down gets awkward with Uro & Saga. It just uses Gardens as an alternate enabler.

    I really like the Greater Good plan and will look for Bosh N Roll's video.

  2. #442

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I played magic yesterday.

    //Threats
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    3 Fury
    2 Trygon Prime
    2 Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes
    //Spells
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Force of WIll
    1 Test of Talents
    4 Lightning Bolt
    //Land
    4 Dress Down
    1 Scroll of Fate
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Tropical Island
    2 Breeding Pool
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Steam Vents
    2 Wasteland
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Forest

    //Sideboard
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Brotherhood's End
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Run Afoul

    3-0 then I left because there was heavy snow and it took like an hour to get home.
    2-1 v delver. G1 they mull to five and I can keep them off mana to beat down with fury. G2 I don't draw any action G3 I get them with the quick deliver
    2-1 v Wur initiative. G1 I had scroll into tryhard so when they take the initiative I have unblockable crackback. A well timed fury ends the game. G2 their removal lines up well against my things. G3 he got mana screwed.
    2-1 v 4 color. G1 t3 double dreadnought with force backup. G2 I got wasted off my second land and never saw a second. G3 they mulled to 5 and couldn't beat an early dreadnought. 0-0-1 But then the snow was already piling up so I stayed long enough to offer a split and jet.

  3. #443
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Congrats on the 3-0-1.

    The SB package seems odd. How did you board and how often were those cards useful? No red blasts?

    What's Leyline of Sanctity for? Veil of Summer already protects against discard, Force of Negation already helps against combo, and you could add 1-2 Flusterstorm for more anti-combo that's also good in blue mirrors to protect your threats. Dreadnought is already one of the best anti-combo decks in the format, so you could probably use those slots on another matchup.

    How was Test of Talents? I like the potential to strip combos or get rid of every Swords to Plowshares/Meltdown so Dreadnought gets there.

    How was Fury? Did you get to cheat in Stifle+Fury for max value? Dress Down + Fury (seems worse)? Or always cast for 5 mana?

    For the maindeck, I'd go:
    -2 Trygon
    +1 Uro
    +1 Minsc
    -3 Fury
    +3 Mawloc
    Fury is strong but with a low red count you can't Evoke it often, and 5 mana is a lot. It sounds like it won you a few games, but I wonder if Mawloc would have too. Mawloc also scales well in the late game with big mana.

  4. #444

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Congrats on the 3-0-1.
    Thank you!
    The SB package seems odd. How did you board and how often were those cards useful? No red blasts?
    I brought in the Run Afoul and Leyline vs Delver, taking out the Tryhards, Some fury and Dress Down.
    Vs Initiative I did no boarding
    Vs Control I brought in Veils and I don't remember what I took out.
    No red blasts. IDK I usually prefer splashier swingy cards for my SB and I haven't gotten around to buying mere Good Cards like REB and BEB
    What's Leyline of Sanctity for? Veil of Summer already protects against discard, Force of Negation already helps against combo, and you could add 1-2 Flusterstorm for more anti-combo that's also good in blue mirrors to protect your threats. Dreadnought is already one of the best anti-combo decks in the format, so you could probably use those slots on another matchup.
    Lately I've been wanting to be more forceful in protecting my hand and Leyline does that. It also helps against burn. It's not necessarily about maximizing my percentage points but narrowing the avenues of how I can lose towards my playstyle. Veil also does nothing on the draw vs the t1 discard. Or worse.
    How was Test of Talents? I like the potential to strip combos or get rid of every Swords to Plowshares/Meltdown so Dreadnought gets there.
    As a one-of I saw it once, cast it once to take Force of Will out of the Delver deck where also knowing their hand was informative. So 100% win rate in games where it was drawn. (N=1)
    How was Fury? Did you get to cheat in Stifle+Fury for max value? Dress Down + Fury (seems worse)? Or always cast for 5 mana?
    I've been liking fury more and more, this 3 Fury configuration is up one from the last time I played. It fits into the game plan naturally and represents a t1 threat in race MUs.
    As for casting it, I Beat delver one game by dress down and pitching second fury. When it killed initiative I paid the full five. It also did so in a way that Mawloc wouldn't by getting to split the damage to remove both blockers. As time goes on do not be surprised if you see Endurance make a return or Subtlety shows up.
    I would be tempted to go:
    -2 Trygon
    +1 Uro
    +1 Minsc
    -3 Fury
    +3 Mawloc
    Fury sounds strong but with a low red count you can't Evoke it often, and 5 mana is a lot. It sounds like it won you a few games, but I wonder if Mawloc would have too.
    There's 4 Bolts, 2 Minsc and 3 fury, so 8 other red cards. I think I'd want 5 more if this was modern, but with 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm? It so far hasn't been an issue.
    Haw Mawloc been doing anything in other decks? On it's face it doesn't look impressive to me so you'll have to tell me if it's any good. Tryhards might not make future lists, but I kinda likes the guys. They're pretty beefy (attack as 5/5s, minimum) and I don't think I want Uro 4 because it's legendary. Minsc 3 is possible, and if I ran it it would be in place of Tryhard 2, and another pitch elemental would replace Tryhard 1.

  5. #445
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I've been liking fury more and more, this 3 Fury configuration is up one from the last time I played. It fits into the game plan naturally and represents a t1 threat in race MUs.
    As for casting it, I Beat delver one game by dress down and pitching second fury. When it killed initiative I paid the full five. It also did so in a way that Mawloc wouldn't by getting to split the damage to remove both blockers. As time goes on do not be surprised if you see Endurance make a return or Subtlety shows up.
    Yeah, my next point was going to be that if cheated-Fury has been that good for you, then Subtlety might be even better. It can't take out 2 creatures like Fury, but both the blue Evoke or 2UU make it easier to cast.

    Vs Delver I would board it out. 5 mana is too much vs Wasteland and Daze. The evoke tricks are cool, but Dress Down prevents the 4 damage so you're just spending 1U + 3 cards to make a 3/3 and cantrip. If they have Daze or Bolt or BlueBlast or RedBlast (kill Dress Down after you Evoke), you get punished hard. They have too many cards that can 2-for-1 you at 1 mana. It's a flashy play when it works but has high potential to backfire vs Delver. It seems great against nonblue decks like Initiative though.

    Mawloc doesn't have the fun explosive plays, but it does scale well at different stages of the game.
    RG - 1-for-1 an X/2, or make a 2/2 & kill a 1/1
    1RG - 1-for-1 an X/3, or make a 3/3 & kill a 2/2
    2RG - Make a 4/4 & kill a 3/3 or 3/4 (most creatures)
    3RG - Make a 5/5 & kill 4/4 or smaller
    5RG - Make a 7/7, draw a card, kill almost anything

    Fury is better at exactly 5 mana. But Mawloc can come down sooner as a 2-for-1 creature or 1-for-1 removal, never leaving you down on cards even if opponent has an answer. Deserves testing.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-26-2023 at 12:08 AM.

  6. #446

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    There's a few issues with your analysis:
    First, if your op has two or more creatures fury's x for y ratio can only go up
    Second your table begins at two mana when fury's begins at zero
    Finally Fury can tag a teferi which will otherwise shut off a lot of your deck.

    Test it and tell me how it goes but I don't think I'm going to unless it starts putting up serious numbers somewhere

  7. #447
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Reading the last few posts, I was wondering if maybe I misunderstood how fury and dress down work?
    I thought you don't deal damage but still have to sacrifice it if you used evoke?

    Is it not the case, or is there another synergy I don't see?

  8. #448
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    There's a few issues with your analysis:
    First, if your op has two or more creatures fury's x for y ratio can only go up
    Second your table begins at two mana when fury's begins at zero
    Finally Fury can tag a teferi which will otherwise shut off a lot of your deck.

    Test it and tell me how it goes but I don't think I'm going to unless it starts putting up serious numbers somewhere
    Fury deals 0 damage if you use Dress Down. Did you get away with dealing damage in paper?

    It's 1U to make a 3/3 (at -1 card). If opponent has any interaction like Bolt or Swords or Daze, you're down on both cards and mana. Risky play. I've tested it with Subtlety and it's a high-risk play unless you're ambushing a small attacker and untapping into something like Standstill or EI (Fury can't do that).

    Fury's table begins at less mana if you have exactly Stifle+red card. But then it's 3 cards so killing 2 things is just parity (+0 cards). Fury + red card can also kill 2 small things without making a body, also parity (+0 cards). That's a fair trade but not a blowout. If you had to pitch a Bolt (half your red cards), that Bolt could have also killed 1 creature or Teferi for 1 mana.

    Mawloc is +1 card on the lower end of the table and doesn't need an exact A+B combo. It works as a topdeck. Since you didn't pitch a Bolt/Minsc to cast it, you get to kill more with that unspent red card, making up for the 2nd creature Fury would tag.

    Most of the red cards you could pitch (Bolt, REB) could also tag those threats for 1 mana. If you don't pitch it, you kill 1 more thing. Fury's great if you kill 3-4 things or keep the body though.

    Basically Fury has higher ceiling if you have the right combo in hand & opponent has the right targets & opponent doesn't have interaction to punish your potential card disadvantage. Or when you have 5 mana but less than 7. But Mawloc is reliable and card positive more often (don't have the right combo in hand, or opponent has interaction, or at different mana ranges).

    Is Fury putting up serious numbers in RUG Dreadnought with <10 red cards? I've tested Fury in low-red decks and didn't love it. Have only played with Mawloc a bit, but scalable Flametongue Kavu effects are strong in most formats. Will test it more. Otherwise Endurance is the tested and proven card.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-26-2023 at 02:15 PM.

  9. #449
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    On Ark4n's builds with BG Mox Diamond + Saga, this stuff just auto-loses to FoV; it will only ever be a meme. If you're doing stuff like this you need countermagic to stop really bad things from happening to you. You can already see it: turn 1 Mox (discard real land) -> Saga, trigger on stack -> FoV, game over, no casting Loam for you....and like even if you had FoW to block the FoV, you'd still be down to 2 cards in hand.
    ---
    Congrats on the 3-0-1 finish. That said, Mycosynth needs to be in Dreadnought. I'm going to assume Trygon Prime is Trygon Predator due to pronounced issues vs Chalice. Fury is ambitious without clearer color identity for pitch-cast and without reliable Fetchlands (Misty can't grab basic Mountain); asking for a lot of problems. Given these issues we need to ask why Fury over Endurance, and why does the SB not have the single best green card in the format: Force of Vigor.

    On Test of Talents, this is FoN if maindeck. If SB, you choose Invasive Surgery every time b/c it potentially 1-shots Iteration, Ending, Loam, Reanimate/Exhume/Looting on cmc 1. Also b/c it costs 1 and not 2, you can do delirium shenanigans w/ suicide Nought. Most fair decks rely solely on Iteration/Ending, so hitting either one of those is basically game winning.

    The Leylines are egregious. With this much countermagic and Stifle and free spells and the inability to steal your biggest dudes w/ Reanimate, you don't need black Leyline. The white Leyline doesn't make sense; you have Uro vs discard. White Leyline also has a big problem vs Silence which does not target. The combination of both Leylines are not needed vs Reanimator. This could just be Null Rod to attack Silence and Painter at the same time; could also be Powder Keg to attack GSZ/Arbor, artifact lands, Saga, LED/Empty, Ancient Tomb's Chrome Mox/Chalice. I guess Leyline is better against just Ruby storm? Seems narrow, and uncastable, and unpitchable. FoV also better in these slots. I'd even take Cindervines over white Leyline.

    No matter what you do (eg Mawloc), you never escape the classic deckbuilding error of 2c deck with all of its survival cards (Bolt, Fury/Mawloc) on tertiary color. This leads to loss to Wasteland and getting stuck in the Daze or Loam or Port abyss, while also playing savagely into losses to Chalice. Just glaring flaws you can't escape (and that is what the majority of tier 1-1.5 uses).
    ---
    Here's a VoD https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1749522349 you can watch. As you watch just imagine your 3c getting reamed by about every opposing strategy in the series. Really think about how trying to make fatties into removal-based decks and getting Chalice'd over and over and getting rolled by Wasteland are build-order losses.

  10. #450

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by dte View Post
    Reading the last few posts, I was wondering if maybe I misunderstood how fury and dress down work?
    I thought you don't deal damage but still have to sacrifice it if you used evoke?

    Is it not the case, or is there another synergy I don't see?
    The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"

  11. #451
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"
    What FTW is saying is that to cheat evoke, you have to lose the deal 4 trigger.

  12. #452

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Fury deals 0 damage if you use Dress Down. Did you get away with dealing damage in paper?

    It's 1U to make a 3/3 (at -1 card). If opponent has any interaction like Bolt or Swords or Daze, you're down on both cards and mana. Risky play. I've tested it with Subtlety and it's a high-risk play unless you're ambushing a small attacker and untapping into something like Standstill or EI (Fury can't do that).

    Fury's table begins at less mana if you have exactly Stifle+red card. But then it's 3 cards so killing 2 things is just parity (+0 cards). Fury + red card can also kill 2 small things without making a body, also parity (+0 cards). That's a fair trade but not a blowout. If you had to pitch a Bolt (half your red cards), that Bolt could have also killed 1 creature or Teferi for 1 mana.
    There seems to be some confusion here, here's the table:
    0 mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis. Floor: Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: a 4-for-2 when you kill four creatures by pitch-casting
    1 Mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis that combos with stifle: Floor, Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: 5-for-3 When you get to kill 4 creatures, plus keep a 3/3 double strike in play when you stifled the evoke side of the trigger.
    2-4 Mana: Fury Is an MDFC, one side is Pyrokinesis, the other is a 3/3. Floor: Still no second red card. Ceiling: Exactly what you needed as either a Pyrokinesis or (Pressure+Cantrip)
    5 Mana: Hard cast on it's face

    Where as Mawloc:
    0 mana: Stuck in hand
    1 Mana: stuck in hand
    2 Mana: Floor: 2/2 Ceiling: 2 for 1 with a delver or below
    3 Mana: Floor: 3/3 Ceiling: 2 for 1 with Active DRC and below
    4-6 Mana: Floor X/X Ceiling: 2 for 1 with X Toughness and Below
    7 Mana: Floor Typhoon X=7. Ceiling 3 for 1.

  13. #453
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    There seems to be some confusion here, here's the table:
    0 mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis. Floor: Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: a 4-for-2 when you kill four creatures by pitch-casting
    1 Mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis that combos with stifle: Floor, Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: 5-for-3 When you get to kill 4 creatures, plus keep a 3/3 double strike in play when you stifled the evoke side of the trigger.
    2-4 Mana: Fury Is an MDFC, one side is Pyrokinesis, the other is a 3/3. Floor: Still no second red card. Ceiling: Exactly what you needed as either a Pyrokinesis or (Pressure+Cantrip)
    5 Mana: Hard cast on it's face
    Thanks for clearing that up. Based on discussion above, couldn't tell if there was confusion over Fury+Dress Down rules.

    Agree on ceiling, though seeing 3-4 X/1s is very rare (in matches where you do, you can board in End the Festivities @ 1 mana like Delver does). The most common "success" case is killing 2 creatures, 2-for-2 or 3-for-3. Not bad. But when you're pitching a Bolt/REB, maybe you could get as good a trade if Fury was another Bolt/REB/Unholy Heat instead by just casting 2x removal, without needing the right combination of cards to come together.

    Floor is lower than you said.

    0 mana: Floor is you pitch Bolt to ping 2 things. Opponent counters with Daze. Opponent keeps 2 creatures, you lose 2 cards to Daze (including a Bolt that could have killed 1 thing).

    2-4 mana: Floor is you attempt the 2nd MDFC face with Dress Down. Pay 1U & 3 cards: 3/3 & draw 1. Opponent responds with Bolt, StP, Daze, BEB, REB (destroy Dress Down), Decay (destroy Dress Down), Boseiju (same). You get 2-for-1d & lose a Bolt/Minsc that would have been useful interaction. If Fury was some other creature (Mawloc, Endurance, DRC), maybe that creature still dies - but you would keep that Bolt/Minsc!

    In the Fury table, you're usually spending multiple cards and need the right combination of cards in hand. In the table for Mawloc, you spend no cards other than Mawloc. You keep that Bolt/Stifle/Dress Down etc to do other things. If opponent answers it, you never get 2-for-1d.

    I completely agree that Fury's ceiling is higher. But the floor isn't a dead card in hand. It's thinking you have a shot to Fury, then getting got by opponent's interaction and falling behind on cards. I haven't seen Fury successfully played in any Xerox deck with <10 red cards.

  14. #454
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On Test of Talents, this is FoN if maindeck. If SB, you choose Invasive Surgery every time b/c it potentially 1-shots Iteration, Ending, Loam, Reanimate/Exhume/Looting on cmc 1. Also b/c it costs 1 and not 2, you can do delirium shenanigans w/ suicide Nought. Most fair decks rely solely on Iteration/Ending, so hitting either one of those is basically game winning.
    Test of Talents can hit instants too. In particular, you can exile every Swords to Plowshares from UWr's deck with 1 card, instead of needing a convoluted grindy game plan to do so. Is that not better than Surgery? Of course you can also cripple other decks by stripping those same sorceries.

    Edit: It does cost 2 instead of 1, but it isn't conditional on Delirium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    No matter what you do (eg Mawloc), you never escape the classic deckbuilding error of 2c deck with all of its survival cards (Bolt, Fury/Mawloc) on tertiary color. This leads to loss to Wasteland and getting stuck in the Daze or Loam or Port abyss, while also playing savagely into losses to Chalice. Just glaring flaws you can't escape (and that is what the majority of tier 1-1.5 uses).
    In that sense, Fury is useful for converting a dead red card in hand into removal/threat without needing red mana.

    I've been looking at it as wasting a live Bolt to try to kill 2 creatures with Fury, instead of just having 2x Bolt (lower variance). But it does help when you can't actually cast that red card in hand due to deck's own mana issues.

  15. #455

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    When evaluating a card's floor, we don't include lines we can play around. Otherwise the floor on everything would be "you instantly lose the game when your op responds with commandeer." Besides casting it isn't compulsory. If you think it's a situation where you get blown out, you're not obligated to play into it.
    For example the floor on Dreadnought isn't "they claimed the first born and then fling after combat" and the floor on Dark Depths isn't "you lose to Archmage's Charm"

  16. #456
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    If your ceiling includes fringe cases (4 X/1s is rare unless Elves), the floor should include very commonly played counterplay from Tier 1 decks.

    Claim the Firstborn & Archmage Charm are ridiculous, yes. Daze, Bolt, Stp, Force, etc are very common Legacy cards.

    The (reasonable) floor of Stifle+Dreadnought is getting 2-for-1d by StP/etc. That's not a fringe corner case for trolling. It's a real concern, and why Dreadnought decks need some alternate plan (card draw, other threats, Mycosynth) to not get blown out.

    With Fury, the floor is also getting blown out into card disadvantage. Sure you're not forced to play it. But then when do you play it? Never? You don't know what's in opponent's hand. It's not always possible to optimally play around. How do you play around the 10+ common cheap answers that 2-for-1 Dress Down + Fury? Never do it, just in case? If so, then delete that mode from the card/table. Otherwise, it absolutely is the floor of the card.

    At the end of the day, you're spending 2-3 cards to Fury at 0-4 mana. That's a big difference from spending 1 card on another creature like Mawloc. For fair comparison, the Mawloc ceiling should include +1 Bolt in hand, and the Fury floor should include being dead when you miss the red card (while Mawloc's floor is still a body). You can freely jam Mawloc into Daze (1-for-1), but you can't jam Fury into Daze (2-for-1), so Fury has no 0-mana mode vs blue dual in play.

    I'm not saying Fury is terrible. The ceiling is great. But there are a lot of cases where it's bad, mediocre, or you can get punished. Opponent is not a goldfish and their hand is hidden. It's a high risk high variance card.

  17. #457

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Yeah but the counter play vs daze is add one to the table on the mana side. And to make the cards gained =2 for force of will.
    How about reanimatir? Is the floor on any creature that your op reanimates dead on it?

  18. #458
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Yeah but the counter play vs daze is add one to the table on the mana side. And to make the cards gained =2 for force of will.
    How about reanimatir? Is the floor on any creature that your op reanimates dead on it?
    Daze on Fury is easier to play around, yeah. But Fury also gets 2-for-1ed by other counters like Blue Blast, hardcast Force, Stifle, etc.

    Opponent can pitch FoW too, trading 2-for-2 with your 2 red cards to save their creatures. If those 2 red cards were 2xBolt instead, you could still kill 2 things but it's bad for opponent to Force. So Fury vs 2 creatures risks more blowouts than just having 2 separate red kill spells.

    What about the 2-for-1 on Dress Down + Fury? That's not just Daze. That gets got by half the interaction in the format. Do you just never play it?

  19. #459

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I'm going to assume Trygon Prime is Trygon Predator due to pronounced issues vs Chalice.
    No, Trygon Prime is (unsurprisingly) Trygon Prime.

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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"
    Thanks for the explanation!
    "Trust you" works for me on the citation details.

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