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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #281
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Where did I say this? They had 4 mana, tapped out for Jace and downticked. There was no answer for the Bane that turn. Unless they had a wrath in hand (which they didn't because they didn't cast it on their next turn after I added an Uro to the board) they were not in a position to answer the Bane and scooped. Exactly why my deck is running Bane instead of Murktide.
    Ah, so they were just giving out free info while dead on board. I thought they'd at least have had 5 mana.
    ---
    Against ANT you misboarded. The trend you want to watch out for is boarding in all this 1-mana interaction while simultaneously tapping yourself out of 1 mana interaction. Kinda self-defeating.

    Your best line is always going to be: I have mana on your turn ANT -> you didn't go off -> EoT Dress Down -> Dreadnought -> guess who has 2 thumbs and is only down 1 mana while passing back the turn.

    The worst card in your deck vs ANT is Ledger Shredder by a wide margin. It makes it really hard to use instant speed draw to hide a FoW with Brainstorm and draw into it effectively when you give your opponent the ability to force you to draw into the pile. After this you don't need 6 slots of Uro and Bane, so trim one and one. Bring in 3x Veil, 1x Fluster, 2x Breacher. You don't need more when your deck has 4x FoW, 2x FoN, 4x Stifle. Really the only thing you need to do is stop tapping out. If you think you need more, bring in Archmage Charm before Mindbreak.

    The SB is a mess and wastes 11 slots (I only agree with Scroll and Veils). You already killed combo by playing Stiflenought...then you double-killed combo....then you killed it 3 and then 4 times over. Regain your ability to farm Delver maindeck and work on other matchups with the SB.

  2. #282

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Ah, so they were just giving out free info while dead on board. I thought they'd at least have had 5 mana.
    They're not here. You don't have to keep trying to score a sick dunk here. Also you're wrong: They weren't DOB, they got to untap twice. Once with just sailors' bane in play, (where they punted downticking jace) and then the next turn.
    You're coming off incredibly petty here constantly trying to get everyone convinced this absolute stranger, based on a sample size of two games you didn't even see, is awful. They, like every other opponent I played that day, was unfamiliar with Sailors' Bane. It's not on MTGO and in every match I've played, including against the grinders at my LGS, my op has had to read it.
    ---
    Against ANT you misboarded. The trend you want to watch out for is boarding in all this 1-mana interaction while simultaneously tapping yourself out of 1 mana interaction. Kinda self-defeating.

    Your best line is always going to be: I have mana on your turn ANT -> you didn't go off -> EoT Dress Down -> Dreadnought -> guess who has 2 thumbs and is only down 1 mana while passing back the turn.

    The worst card in your deck vs ANT is Ledger Shredder by a wide margin. It makes it really hard to use instant speed draw to hide a FoW with Brainstorm and draw into it effectively when you give your opponent the ability to force you to draw into the pile. After this you don't need 6 slots of Uro and Bane, so trim one and one. Bring in 3x Veil, 1x Fluster, 2x Breacher. You don't need more when your deck has 4x FoW, 2x FoN, 4x Stifle. Really the only thing you need to do is stop tapping out. If you think you need more, bring in Archmage Charm before Mindbreak.
    I didn't realize the dreadnought plan was so good vs ANT
    The SB is a mess and wastes 11 slots (I only agree with Scroll and Veils). You already killed combo by playing Stiflenought...then you double-killed combo....then you killed it 3 and then 4 times over. Regain your ability to farm Delver maindeck and work on other matchups with the SB.
    So what would you do with the other 11?


    If I added Endurance I would cut shredder for it, but mygreen card coult is only 7, so either my side has more greens for Endurence, or I find a green replacement for consider (which is acting as a mid-teir enabler for uro and Bane)

  3. #283
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I didn't realize the dreadnought plan was so good vs ANT
    A single -12 makes it very hard to win with Ad Nauseam. Meanwhile you barely spent any mana and can threaten interaction all day.

    Their only chance is if you have slow clocks that tap you out of interaction (Ledger Shredder, Uro). Then you either tap out (they have a window to go off) or you don't pressure their life total (they have time to get lucky drawing enough disruption and gas to go off). Then they can lucksack into more discard than you have answers and try to create a window to win. But statistically that should not happen as long as you don't tap out and pressure their life total. Especially with that much SB, the matchup should be >90% in your favor.

    I am torn between whether Bane or Uro are worse against ANT. Uro taps you out more (1UG+UUGG or 2-card combo), but also draws cards and gains life. Both pressure their resources to go off. Bane could be dead longer and doesn't draw cards, but eventually it could tap you out less. Fox's -1 each seems reasonable. Flash on both Borrower and Hullbreacher is amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So what would you do with the other 11?
    If I added Endurance I would cut shredder for it, but mygreen card coult is only 7, so either my side has more greens for Endurence, or I find a green replacement for consider (which is acting as a mid-teir enabler for uro and Bane)
    The combo match is so favorable that you don't need a narrow card like Mindbreak Trap. Trap is for aggro decks with no other hope. Cut Mindbreak and gain 3 free slots. Flusterstorm is probably unnecessary for Storm, but it helps against fair blue so 1 copy seems OK.

    Leyline of the Void is also overkill. Look at the SB I suggested on the last page for some ideas of tools. Fox may have better ones. The main thing is to run tools that apply in more bad matchups, instead of going 4x narrow GY hate + 4x narrow storm hate like a linear aggro deck.

    Powder Keg - kills Chalice @ 1, 8-cast artifact lands & 0s, Elves, Goblins, D&T dorks, token swarm, Ensnaring Bridge

    Surgical Extraction - Reanimator, Loam, Hogaak, Uro, random combos (extract wincon), decks with bad mana (Stifle/Waste + extract fetch or dual)
    It works against the main graveyard decks, but isn't a dead draw like Leyline and it has utility against other decks too.

    Return to Nature - Chalice @ 1, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Loam, Reanimator, OmniTell

    Run Afoul - Murktide, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Archon, Emrakul, DRC... basically every Tier 1 creature that could race you. Also answers flash Ice-Fang Coatl before it can kill Dreadnought/Bane. Not joking about this card. Underrated tech for UG.

    Back to Basics (if you clean up your manabase) - Lands, 12Post, Eldrazi, MUD, greedy Saga+Tomb decks, greedy multicolor decks

    Then you need some slots for removal-heavy fair midrange. Fox may have some ideas for UG.

  4. #284
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    So first things first, you don't get to play the two best green cards [Endurance, FoV] with this low of a green count. The suggestions made by @FTW would all be improvements, except for B2B b/c every deck you'd want it against plays Boseju, Who Shatters All. It would be like playing Skylasher as your "answer" to Murktide, when you know it already failed b/c they play Bolt. Return to Nature is pretty good as a replacement for FoV.

    The main thing I would do is never play flying Augur of Bolas as my "answer" to flying Goyf. Ledger Shredder is not good enough for this format, and the only people who can disguise that simple fact have a stack of red blasts in their SB and usually have a playset of DRC on top of that. Go one step further and realize they aren't using this card selection to get 1-shot by a 1cmc creature kill spell. It's not a playable card in Dreadnought, and I would extend that to the entire format were it not for the fact that Goyf dies to Pyroblast...for now.

    The very first thing this deck needs isn't SB tuning, but rather the maindeck needs to go back to auto-winning vs Delver, and green just isn't going to do that. Ice-Fang looks better vs Murktide...except that they just discard Bolt and you still take 8...and this doesn't really help your win condition (combat damage). You're also not built to use the 1cmc 3/4 Goyf [Reclaimer]. You kinda missed all the reasons to play green, just to add Uro (and push the mana beyond the point of no return). Luckily you didn't sink $2400 into Trops for this.

    The fix for these StifleNought lists is always going to be "just play UR Dreadstill". We have DRC, we have 1 card delirium (Saga find suicide Nought), we get SDT 2.0 (aka Currency Converter), we have Lavamancer, we can get permanents down on 1 mana, we can win without combat step, both DRC and Lavamancer synergize with Bane, our mana is better, we get to spam red blasts, Delver is a bye, etc...

    The best thing you can do with UG is going to have to be something unique. The only thing that has looked interesting here for the last two years is the core of Reclaimer, Uro, GSZ + Lotus Field + Nissa/Karn + the green density to run FoV/Endurance with Nought. The issue is that green is so bad at interacting that you're better off running 2x Verdict (white mana only coming off Lotus), and pitching it to FoW/FoN otherwise. It is quite fun however to hit people with 5/5 hexproof while opponents never stop trying to Wasteland or Port it.

    ^now contrast that level of synergy where we're able to tutor Lotus Field, immediately have 3 lands in GY (assuming we activated Reclaimer or a single Fetch), dump it in for free off Uro trigger (generate escape fuel), get to 2 lands quicker with a GSZ for Arbor...and all of that to cast our PWs which make 5/5 hexproofs, have GY recursion loops (Nissa), have SB/exile recursion loops (Karn). Now you just add Nought and Stifle and you're adding in the ability to cheat Lotus Field into play, you gain win % vs combo, and Karn + Nought stuff is immune to Surgical. What exactly is there for opponents to interact favorably with, when this is just and endless stream of interchangeable combo pieces? Now compare that to just adding Uro to gift opponents easy axis of attacking your mana and/or kill spelling. Stop giving opponents easy targets.

  5. #285

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Today's story:
    "Dim-Bulb's stupid horns . . . that's huge," Jaya whispered. A Phyrexian dreadnought. It had to be the largest one she'd ever seen. "How are we supposed to fight that?"
    Hopes: Up.

  6. #286

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0...nnel=BoshNRoll
    Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

    I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him

  7. #287

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0...nnel=BoshNRoll
    Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

    I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him
    He went undefeated ie 10-0 with no losses, despite playing a suboptimal list? Thats awesome.

    Hes very good at playing Dreadnought.

    Last time Bosh played this deck (an year ago), he went 4-1 with the only loss being to Doomsday. Its crazy unlucky that they lost to Doomsday with a list that played 4 Dress Down 4 Stifle 4 Daze 4 FoW 1 Flusterstorm 1 FoN etc.

  8. #288

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    This past weekend was an eventful one for Dressnought. Looks like mtgoers figured out how well dressnought preys on all the delver, combo and urzas saga decks running around on mtgo.

    Easymoneymarksman 5-0ed with the RUG list below.

    Creature (8)
    1 Brazen Borrower
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Sorcery (7)
    3 Expressive Iteration
    4 Ponder

    Instant (20)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Stifle
    1 Stubborn Denial

    Enchantment (5)
    4 Dress Down
    1 Sylvan Library

    Land (20)
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Fury
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Meltdown
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Torpor Orb

    Ajdaddd420 came in 19th on legacy challenge with UR Dressnought

    Creature (11)
    1 Brazen Borrower
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    2 Murktide Regent
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    Sorcery (4)
    4 Ponder

    Instant (21)
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Slip Out the Back
    4 Stifle
    1 Unholy Heat

    Artifact (2)
    2 Mishra's Bauble

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Land (18)
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Steam Vents
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Abrade
    1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Meltdown
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    1 Price of Progress
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Rough // Tumble
    1 Scroll of Fate
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Torpor Orb

    And boshnrolls 5-0 with BUG Dressnought also got posted…

    Creature (13)
    2 Lazav, the Multifarious
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Tarmogoyf
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Sorcery (7)
    4 Ponder
    3 Thoughtseize

    Instant (18)
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Daze
    1 Flusterstorm
    4 Force of Will
    1 Snuff Out
    3 Stifle

    Artifact (1)
    1 Scroll of Fate

    Enchantment (2)
    2 Dress Down

    Land (19)
    1 Bayou
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Scroll of Fate
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Hydroblast
    3 Plague Engineer
    1 Run Afoul
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Veil of Summer

  9. #289

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Andreas Mueller just 5-0ed with the RUG Dressnought list below

    Creature (9)
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Fury
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Sorcery (8)
    4 Expressive Iteration
    4 Ponder

    Instant (19)
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Stifle
    1 Stubborn Denial

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Land (20)
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Ancient Grudge
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Hydroblast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Pyroclasm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Unlicensed Hearse

    Donhaggis 5-0ed with BUG

    Creature (13)
    2 Lazav, the Multifarious
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Tarmogoyf
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    Sorcery (7)
    4 Ponder
    3 Thoughtseize
    Instant (18)
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Stifle
    Enchantment (3)
    3 Dress Down
    Land (19)
    1 Bayou
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Null Rod
    3 Plague Engineer
    2 Run Afoul
    1 Seeds of Innocence
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Veil of Summer

  10. #290

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Dreadnought status: Back, Babybe?

  11. #291
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Dreadnought status: Back, Babybe?
    It never left.

    Still it's important to always point out that winrate boosting off farming combo (online leagues) and Delver (low round total online challenges) does not tell the story of how things work in real-length events or in paper where things get a lot more expensive and the easy matchups quickly disappear.

    If you have access to the Twitch VoDs from Legacy_Council over the past week where he's on StifleNought. You can see just how little removal and just how much combo is in the league setting; it's comical. 3-4 of every 5 matches are consistently combo.

    Not too hard to go 2-0 after 3 free combo wins and publish a 5-0. Nor is going 1-2 on top of three Delver autowins to make a top 32 appearance. Still a bad idea to try to pull this stunt in paper.

  12. #292

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Would it kill you to have a positive thing to say for once?

  13. #293
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Would it kill you to have a positive thing to say for once?
    It's neither positive nor negative.

    The winrate is coming the overrepresentstion of two matchups, not from internal viability. There are a lot of duals in these decks, leading to expensive miscalculations when you try to port it to paper.

    More than that it creates the impression of an expensive barrier to entry, when the Dreadnought archetype really only costs around 2k with a 1x dual requirement.

    The metrics are: long-term players come from paper & the way we increase long-term players is beating out other blue decks on price of entry. This is how the recruitment engine works.

    So when @Clark Kant is getting all hyped about how good of a week it was for Dreadnought tourism, it was a bad week for long-term pilot recruiting. The entire legacy community is relentlessly whining about UR Delver (the reason StifleNought can top32 a 6 rounder).

    Once that complaining turns into a ban, the Dreadnought tourism industry is going to crash, and all the tourists will fade away to different decks. Then all the Dreadstill community has to clean up the beach (in this metaphor the litter on the beach is the association of Dreadnought with costing $5k to $7k to build).

    I'm neither being positive nor negative in the analysis. It's merely an atonal interpretation of how this story will end. What you are picking up as negativity is the lack of enthusiasm about cleaning up after tourists. It would be nice to be positive and happy about the StifleNought shenanigans afoot, but it comes at the highest of prices in the long-term: less dedicated pilots.

    If you have an alternative set of metrics that leads to long-term growth in Dreadnought pilots, please share.

  14. #294

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It's neither positive nor negative.
    So when @Clark Kant is getting all hyped about how good of a week it was for Dreadnought tourism, it was a bad week for long-term pilot recruiting.
    Get a better gimmick.

  15. #295

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Get a better gimmick.
    Dont bother. He has an agenda revolving around Dreadstill. Thats why the ever shifting argument. First it was… Dreadstill is a way better deck than Dressnought, just no one can play Dreadstill correctly and thats why it doesnt win as much… then it became Grixis Dressnought lists are faring well, that one shade of Dressnought should be made a seperate thread. Now that all the other five shades of Dressnought are also doing well… it became…. well the deck is only good on mtgo, it wont do as well at paper events. Once it starts seeing play in paper events, it will be something else. Better to just add him to the ignore list and move on. The decks performance speaks for itself.

    Dressnought feasts on combo decks, delver decks, urzas saga decks and all the random jank decks that are ubiquitous in the paper meta. It will do just fine at paper tournaments as well. It just takes time for mtgo decks to start getting adopted by paper pilots, the same way it took time for a new card like Dress Down to be adopted by mtgo pilots. I dont see how anything short of a ban of dress down or some eternal only set that is packed with blue hate that would make this deck uncompetitive.

  16. #296
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0...nnel=BoshNRoll
    Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

    I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him
    I watched it and now understand why Goyf. Goyf is Murktide that doesn't die to Pyroblast. It was to have a cheap standalone threat that plays around the Pyroblast-heavy meta (the Grixis version had Murktide in that role). Ledger Shredder, Borrower, etc all die to Pyroblast and Bolt. Goyf is awkward with Dress Down, but good in some cases. Maybe it should just be Gurmag Angler.

  17. #297

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I watched it and now understand why Goyf. Goyf is Murktide that doesn't die to Pyroblast. It was to have a cheap standalone threat that plays around the Pyroblast-heavy meta (the Grixis version had Murktide in that role). Ledger Shredder, Borrower, etc all die to Pyroblast and Bolt. Goyf is awkward with Dress Down, but good in some cases. Maybe it should just be Gurmag Angler.
    Yes Tarmogoyf absolutely makes sense. More so than Angler. Angler doesnt belong in a list with 2 Lazav and 4 Uro.

    There was only one clearly mistaken choice in that build. The decision to only play 2 Dress Down was absolutely 100% incorrect. Dress Down is THE best card in any list with 4 Dreadnought and 4 Escape Titans. That is doubly true as long as Urza’s Saga remains the best land in legacy and Doomsday remains the best combo deck in legacy. Wiping out constructs after your opponent sunk. 6 mana and two turns into them is a massive and game winning tempo swing. There are also plenty of situations where Dress Down enables multiple Dreadnoughts or a Dreadnought and an Uro in the same turn which enables wins in a single combat step.

    Step one in improving the build would be to cut the Scroll of Fate and either the Flusterstorm or an Abrupt Decay to make room for the 3rd and 4th Dress Down. Flusterstorm is an awesome sideboard card but it likely doesnt belong in the maindeck, especially given how well Dragon Stompy and similar prison strategies are doing. Similarly, there is no reason to maindeck 3 Abrupt Decay or a Snuff Out in a meta where Snuff/Decay is useless against a number of different decks.

    I would go…
    -1 Scroll of Fate
    -1 Snuff Out/Abrupt Decay
    +2 Dress Down

    I would personally also cut a Lazav and a Goyf for 2 Baleful Strix but that is a meta dependant call based on how many decks side in Melt Down.

  18. #298
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Yes Tarmogoyf absolutely makes sense. More so than Angler. Angler doesnt belong in a list with 2 Lazav and 4 Uro.
    Tarmogoyf is bad with Dress Down though. Sailors' Bane might be a better choice, though it could be countered by Pyroblast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    There was only one clearly mistaken choice in that build. The decision to only play 2 Dress Down was absolutely 100% incorrect. Dress Down is THE best card in any list with 4 Dreadnought and 4 Escape Titans.
    Fewer Dress Down was probably because of Goyf. This problem is fixed if they play a different standalone threat.

    I agree there should be more Dress Down and that Dress Down is amazing with Dreadnought. But Dress Down + Uro is bad. You're better off just paying the 1UG to gain 3 and draw a card, then escape it. Or use the Stifle trick off the extra land drop. Dress Down should only be a back-up plan vs heavy graveyard hate (Leyline of the Void). Dress Down + Kroxa is good, because Kroxa's ability is weak so you're happy to just make a 6/6. But Uro's ability is so strong that you would rather have the ability unless you need to dodge grave hate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Step one in improving the build would be to cut the Scroll of Fate
    Scroll is very strong with Dreadnought though. It's also a great way to convert bad topdecks into threats.

    You could cut 1 Lazav and Fluster for the 2 Dress Down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    I would personally also cut a Lazav and a Goyf for 2 Baleful Strix but that is a meta dependant call based on how many decks side in Melt Down.
    Where do you find Strix/Coatl useful? You often include 2 Coatl or 2 Strix. But the winning lists never run those cards. Strix/Coatl don't do anything to advance the game plan. They aren't even great at defense (do not kill Marit Lage, the combo fatty that could race 12/12).

    Brazen Borrower is much stronger in that slot. It has the 2-mana "remove target fatty" mode that actually kills Marit Lage, it bounces hate pieces like Chalice @ 1, and it's a good flash threat.

  19. #299

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Counterpoint: Coatl is green, and lets you hit the critical density to run Endurance.
    Making the threat suite: Uro, Dreadnought, Bane (over goyf) Endurance And Coatl then acts more as a cantrip. However the reason I haven't pulled the trigger on this build is then you're only on Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, Stifle, + 1 more slot for bane.

  20. #300
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Dont bother. He has an agenda revolving around Dreadstill. Thats why the ever shifting argument. First it was… Dreadstill is a way better deck than Dressnought, just no one can play Dreadstill correctly and thats why it doesnt win as much… then it became Grixis Dressnought lists are faring well, that one shade of Dressnought should be made a seperate thread. Now that all the other five shades of Dressnought are also doing well… it became…. well the deck is only good on mtgo, it wont do as well at paper events. Once it starts seeing play in paper events, it will be something else. Better to just add him to the ignore list and move on. The decks performance speaks for itself.

    Dressnought feasts on combo decks, delver decks, urzas saga decks and all the random jank decks that are ubiquitous in the paper meta. It will do just fine at paper tournaments as well. It just takes time for mtgo decks to start getting adopted by paper pilots, the same way it took time for a new card like Dress Down to be adopted by mtgo pilots. I dont see how anything short of a ban of dress down or some eternal only set that is packed with blue hate that would make this deck uncompetitive.
    I have played thousands of games with Stiflenought, and fact of the matter is you need something to push removal-based decks out of the format. Your wincon isn't tied to "I'm a skilled player" or "my deck is great", it is completely bound to dodging bad matchups. What that means is that you need overwhelming combo presence (think DTT Omni, Breach, ValkiCannon) to clean up the format for you...otherwise you need to find a boosted environment (like 5 round leagues featuring outlandish amounts of combo, or 6 round challenges where you reasonably expect to roll 3/6 Delver).

    My argument does not change. Dreadstill is a better deck, and in the last Showcase with >300 players it placed 58th. Around the time of that Showcase it generates multiple 5-0s with exactly one online player attempting few leagues. It's the same deck that top 8'd the biggest event (again Showcase) when Covid was still new. Now who do you suppose was on the discord call the whole event coaching to those finishes the whole way? hint: me. I happen to know exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about how good Dreadstill is, and how long it takes to learn. Specifically I know what the fail rate is. I know exactly how much spaghetti DreadStill is throwing at the wall...but on StifleNought you don't. Your only focus is on the finishes [the spaghetti that sticks to the wall], while completely ignoring number of pilots throwing spaghettis, rate of throwing spaghetti, or moving the wall closer.

    The fail rate is the most important predictor of competitive outcome, and StifleNought has a high fail rate. So while the enthusiasm about how good of a week it was is great, I'd really encourage you to seek out those VoDs of Legacy_Council from that same week. He's much better than the average player and he gets fed combo after combo on a silver platter, and in that same week he's not able to make a 5-0 despite multiple easy-mode leagues. While mtgo leagues will always financially incentivize linear combo overrepresentation, the Delver overplaying online in small challenges is not an inexhaustible resource. With a ban comes the hard times, and you don't have a plan for that.

    The fact of the matter is WotC probably won't make the right call and ban Day's, Echo, and Daze. They'd go after Expressive before that, and that is going to mean no more silly stats like 30% of top 32 being Delver. The fair decks are going to come back in, and with them all the removal. So enjoy the good times, because you're rapidly approaching legacy on hard mode. So keep some stats and throw out every outcome vs Delver or combo, and get back to us on your real failrate.

    Also while you're at it, pick a card (and the fat stack of duals behind it). Thing in the Ice $17, Shredder $24, Goyf $20 (quick Goldfish search on prices). Like every time you post it's some new $10-20 chase card...and like where is DRC? Why is it taking you guys so long to get on board on turn 1 with a $2 card.

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