Cabal TherapistOriginally Posted by Captain Hammer
Card designed for Modern has superfluous word "precombat", unlike Legacy-power cards like Carpet of Flowers. I think Cabal Therapist would see more play if not for that word. I've tried it in many brews, and it was always disappointing.
Grief scam is black's best turn 1 play. There's just no reason to pair that with Dreadnought. It might win a league here or there, but regular Grief scam decks are better. We're talking about one league 5-0 vs Grief Shadow already being the #2 deck in the format (without Dreadnought and Varolz): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper
https://mythicspoiler.com/woe/cards/...ssellsword.jpg
A fling variant attached to a 2/2 that enters with+1/+1 for each creature that died before it this turn.
Pro: one mana, sacrifice is at resolution not a cost, bonus body
Con: sorcery Speed, targeting means they can remove the fodder creature
Leaving the creature in play with the spell on the stack gives the opponent a second card type to target (i.e. massively increased fail rate). It gets worse: if they kill the Nought you're trying to "fling" you lose all 3 things - the Nought, the spell, and the adventure mode of dude bro.
Sorcery is also a huge problem as you can neither "fling" in response to kill spell, nor can you use this as a Dreadnought enabler (in the sense that it domes for 12 before sacrifice). This card comprehensively fails to imitate a Stifle.
It'd be so much better if you could Fling Dreadnought in response to the sacrifice or removal.
Last edited by FTW; 08-18-2023 at 06:34 PM.
I do think Boshnrolls 10-0 suggests that Varolz is worth testing…
https://youtu.be/_pYeymSuFs4
Just replace Fatal Push with Orcish Bowmasters and Dismember with Daze and the deck is perfect otherwise.
I tested Varolz Shadow ~10 years ago when the card was released. There's a very old N&D thread I started here, and another one started by Finn. A lot of other players here and elsewhere tested it too. Varolz looked like it had promise. But it ended up being more of a meme, a bit too slow and durdly for competitive Legacy. That was when DRS was legal, so you could even play turn 2 Varolz, then scavenge big guys onto DRS.
The question is what has changed since then to make the BUG Varolz plan better? DRS ban made it worse. It's always been possible to pair Shadow & Dreadnought with Varolz, but those decks never took off. Regular Shadow or Dreadnought decks did better. What's different now?
Dress Down is a big change. It made Dreadnought better and has synergy with Shadow. Still, regular Shadow decks and Dressnought decks performed better than the Shadow+Dreadnought hybrids.
The newest changes are Bowmaster & Troll. Both are powerful boosts to black. Troll also makes the Grief scam plan better (another reanimate target), and Reanimate/scam plays well with Shadow. Because of those changes, UB shadow is now a Tier 1 DTB.
How do those changes make Dreadnought/Varolz better though? Do Troll, Bowmasters and Grief scam somehow make Varolz+Dreadnought more viable than it was before?
I don't see how. Over a small sample size it's more likely the deck won off the back of the UB Shadow core - which is Tier 1 in this meta, especially in Leagues.
You can add a few questionable slots to a Tier 1 deck and still win a league. Does that mean Varolz has become good now though? Needs more testing.
The Dreadnoughts add 4 more shadows to your deck and veleoz adds even more. If I was allowed to run more Dreadnoughts I would.
Scam plans, traditionally, have difficulty closing a game because while you're good at stopping the op you're still riding a dinky little 4/3. Having a multitude of 12/12s means you have meaningful pressure
The problem has never been doing the Dreadnought thing harder; see also Hunted Horror/Nought/Torpor. Moreover, it's not 4 copies of Plow and an easier to handle Snapcaster trying to recast those 4 copies of Plow... it's 4x Plow, 4x Ending and Mystic Sanctuary or it's Boseju/FoV or it's Plow/Solitude, and the list goes on.
Removal-based magic is common in real legacy (i.e. Swiss). Don't confuse removal-based magic's low league clear speed [diminished payout potential] resulting in boosted amounts of combo [high clear speed] with viability. Doing the Dreadnought thing harder isn't going to overwhelm the removal wall...especially if you can't play proactive magic on turn 1.
---
As @FTW and I have been saying, you're making Shadow worse; adding Nought to Shadow creates a less-winning deck.
If we look at Shadow at any point before 6 months ago or so, you have a deck that was not competitive (outside of being fed combo matchups in league). What made the deck better isn't more fatties - they were still losing with Murktide. What changed for them is:
-turn 0 Probe/Therapy imitation done by Grief/Reanimate
-ability to not get completely locked out by Strix-types (mostly as a function of Bowmaster, and to a lesser degree menace/supermenace, and to a much much lesser degree Dress Down stripping keyword deathtouch)
-picking up a combination of cards that more-or-less act as a wrath effect (Bowmaster's pings + Dress Down vs enemy constructs)
-decreased mana screw with modestly better mana (Troll + playing Basics)
^more fatties isn't the mechanism by which their deck wins. Ergo, adding Dreadnought stuff is cutting out how Shadow is finally finding success.
In the 5-0 Bosh N Roll video...
Round 1: Mind's Desire Storm.
Varolz does nothing. Stifle catches opponent offguard. (one bonus from Dreadnought plan)
Round 2: Reanimator
UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz & Dreadnought boarded out.
Round 3: Solidarity
UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz used as Gray Ogre, any other creature would be better.
Round 4: Mind's Desire-Doomsday brew
G1 - First opportunity to pull off Varolz cheese. Opts for Reanimating Grief first (the better play), then eventually does the Varolz thing while opponent's deck lost to its own manascrew/bad storm build.
G2 - Board out Varolz. UB Shadow plan wins.
Round 5: GW Depths
G1 - UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz cast as Gray Ogre & dies.
G2 - Varolz boarded out. Bosh made Dreadnought but dead on board to bigger Marit Lage, opponent dropped by accident?
Imho that supports my instinct that he won off the back of regular UB Shadow being Tier 1. Varolz did the thing in 1 of 10 games, against basically a goldfish. Opponent was already losing to self on 0 lands. Otherwise Varolz got boarded out a lot or functioned as Gray Ogre.
Needs more results to show Varolz is good. This 5-0 10-0 was in spite of Varolz, not because of it.
Combining just Dreadnought with Shadow might be good, because Shadow is so strong now and maindeck Stifle/Dress Down punish a lot of decks. Then again regular Shadow probably 5-0s that league too. Shadow is heavily favored vs 4 combo decks (especially when round 5 opponent scoops a winning board state).
Last edited by FTW; 08-19-2023 at 12:34 PM.
Yes I think thats the way to go. Dreadnought basically becomes Shadow 5-8, a shadow that can be played without having to go down to 9 life. And since it has trample, you dont need to waste slots for Fatal Push/Dismember to remove small chump blockers that cant clock nearly as fast as your threats do.
In the current meta, for a deck with such a fast clock, Dress Down and Stifle are far more relevant and hate on a lot more decks than Push/Dismember.
Cross posting:
The era of slip out the back is over, The era of Gladriels Dismissal is now.
That card is missing pitches to FoW, mill target deck after Doomsday, make things not-islands response to High Tide, and wipe out Urza's Saga.
Better card has existed since Visions. The one thing this card had going for it got ruined by the dumbest rules update ever - it no longer RFG's illegitimate game objects like Marit Lage or germ tokens (while also disappearing nonsense equips for the duration of the game).
Vision Charm is powerful and flexible.
Slip Out the Back only offered 2 possible advantages: +1/+1 counter and works on secondary nonartifact target (Kroxa/Fury), but misses many of Vision Charm's backup modes.
Galadriel's Dismissal loses one of Slip's perks (+1/+1 counter), doesn't pitch to Force, and pushes you into another color. The kicked mode could be useful but needs WW and just fogs. Phasing out some passive abilities (Bowmasters, Hullbreacher) could be good, but W already removes them (StP). Slip or Vision Charm seem better.
Maybe UW could cheat out Solitude with Stifle/phasing? That would be the reason to consider white as a secondary color for Dressnought. Then you would still need a card draw engine in UW (not Uro), probably Standstill, but maybe Staff of the Storyteller.
Dismissal has potential but the need for a white splash is a problem.
Btw, does anyone have a recent list? What do you think of this list?
4 Death's Shadow
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Murktide Regent
3 Troll of Khazad-dum
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Reanimate
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard
3 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Null Rod
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hydroblast
1 Force of Negation
1 Brazen Borrower
What would you change? I would love to find room for a 4th Dreadnought and a 1 of Slip out the back and an Orcish Bowmasters maindeck. Is 4 Ponder still needed in this Orc meta now that we play Troll which often serves a function similar to Ponder?
I'd cut Murktide and add 4 Grief.
After both Shadow and Dreadnought, you don't need more big dumb things to turn sideways. That's not an axis your deck will struggle on, so use slots to shore up other axes instead. Murktide is also bad with Reanimate and Dress Down and makes you more vulnerable to grave hate (after already being on Reanimate).
You can Stifle Grief's sacrifice trigger (after the discard has resolved and you have perfect information), so Stifle is another way to scam turn 1 Grief.
You can go down to 16 lands. With Troll and a low curve that's plenty.
I'd try to find room for some card draw: maybe Sauron's Ransom. Space is tight though. You already can't fit Bowmasters main.
Fox will say Ponder is never necessary for Dreadnought, that actual card draw is better for assembling the A-then-B combo.
All great suggestions, ponder being a sorcery was always a pain. Being able to leave mana open for stifle, dress down, cycling, brainstorm, force of negation or saurons ransom etc are great. And stifle/daze/dress down are all stronger when you get early info about your opponents hand.
New list to test:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Grief
4 Troll of Khazad-dum
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Sauron’s Ransom
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard
2 DROWN IN THE LOCH
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Null Rod
1 Plague Engineer
1 Dismember
1 Hydroblast
1 Brazen Borrower
1 FORCE OF NEGATION
Any additional suggestions regarding the MD/SB FTW?
Looks good. A couple small tweaks.
3rd Watery Grave is probably better (and cheaper) than 2nd USea on the Shadow plan.
I'd play Nihil Spellbomb over Dauthi Voidwalker as SB grave hate. Voidwalker attacking is cool, but coming down turn 2 on the draw and missing things already in graveyard seems too slow for the combo matchups where you need grave hate. Spellbomb also policies fair graveyard-filling strategies (DRC/Murktide, Loam, Uro, Scam) and is generally amazing value.
On principle I don't like playing 2 Null Rod, since the 2nd copy is redundant. You could diversify artifact hate so the 2nd slot does something different.
Speaking of the other artifact hate slot, you need more outs to a resolved Chalice @ 1. Chalice @ 1 hits a lot of your curve and both big threats. Since you're on Null Rod instead of Karn, that slot doesn't cover it. You've just got the 1 Brazen Borrower... So maybe that means 1 Null Rod and the Plague Engineer should be Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb so they can also answer Chalice (as well as hating on go-wide weenies and artifacts). Keg/Bomb will also answer Ensnaring Bridge, another big roadblock for decks like this.
Another option is to put 1 Scroll of Fate in the SB. It can make uncounterable flash Dreadnoughts and Shadows through Chalice @ 1, or it can be used to attack through Bridge with 2 cards in opponent's hand.
Last edited by FTW; 08-30-2023 at 04:27 PM.
So dreadnought makes it cheaper and also Dreadnought triggers it.
And it's beans compliant
Off-color Phyrexian Processor with extra steps.
So dreadnought makes it cheaper and also Dreadnought triggers it.
And it's beans compliant
If you're investing 3 mana to do Dreadnought things you need to be playing Scroll of Fate. (this new card requires -2 mana for Dress Down on enemy end step or 4 mana with Stifle)
To begin to be interesting we need to seeflash. Tap make a 12/12. Cost reduced to 0 by 12/12 on field.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
