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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #241
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Surgery = Invasive Surgery. Not Surgical.
    Yes, Invasive Surgery does not work in a deck that cannibalizes its own graveyard (2 Murktide + 2 Kroxa) and lacks DRC self-mill (0 DRC). The Dressnought player wouldn't have Delirium.

    With Sailors' Bane instead, the deck would have an easier time supporting Delirium for Invasive Surgery. Sailor's Bane would make the Plow/Ending matchup much better. Instead of trying to strip their removal (via Surgery or exile-mill), play a threat they can't remove. TNN works too, but Bane counts to 20 much faster. That build would need 4 DRC to fuel Sailor's Bane, and then has an added benefit of supporting some SB Surgery if you want it. It could also cut Kroxa and black for cleaner mana. But it would lose harder to Chalice @ 1.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-04-2022 at 11:19 PM.

  2. #242
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    ThrabenU has been playing around with Dreadnought in other colors.

    VakaNought in BW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TapEmR5vQcA

    //Lands: 20
    4 Marsh Flats
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Plains
    1 Karakas
    2 Silent Clearing

    //Creatures: 24
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hunted Horror
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Strict Proctor
    4 Eater of Days

    //Spells: 12
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    //Artifacts: 4
    4 Torpor Orb

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Deafening Silence
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Opposition Agent


    This was predictably bad and too 1-dimensional.

    Eater of Days is not even worth cheating out: 4-mana 9/8 vs Murktide Regent and Marit Lage at less mana. The deck has other glaring problems like overloading on redundant Torpor Orbs, no maindeck removal, limited interaction with opponent's strategy, no protection from topdeck removal, and no way to reduce draw variance. The video has a lot of 12/12s dying and then nothing.

    After watching that, I thought the meme could be preserved but improved with:
    -4 Eater
    -4 Proctor
    -3 Torpor
    -2 Silent Clearing
    +4 Mother of Runes (protect Dreadnought and Bob)
    +4 Swords to Plowshares (maindeck removal)
    +2 Scroll of Fate (better enabler)
    +2 Urza's Saga (threat & tutor Dreadnought)
    +1 Currency Converter / Relic of Progenitus (other Saga target)


    Coincidentally, Phil recently moved in that direction with this mono W build from the 5-0 dump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPAeCR5LGfI
    Mono W Nought (only made 2-3 in the video)

    //Lands: 23
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port
    4 Plains
    2 Karakas
    1 Flagstones of Trokair
    1 Ancient Den

    //Creatures: 23
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Tocatli Honor Guard
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    1 Ethersworn Canonist

    //Artifacts: 10
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Torpor Orb
    3 Scroll of Fate

    //Spells: 4
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Torpor Orb
    1 Scroll of Fate
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Deafening Silence
    2 Cataclysm


    Compared to the BW version this upgrades to Scroll of Fates, Mom protection, maindeck StP, Sagas to find Dreadnought, no multiple Torpors, and no Eater. It also goes heavy on mana denial (Waste + Port + Thalia + Vial) to try to out-tempo with Dreadnought. It has the Aether Vial trick with 2 Dreadnoughts, although a 3-for-1 12/12 probably isn't worth it. Vial seems unnecessary card disadvantage if the manabase is cleaned up to have more reliable white.

    I'm surprised by all the 1-of enchant/artifacts but no Enlightened Tutor in the 75 to help find them. Without some extra tutor or card draw, the deck lacks threat density. There are a number of situations where Wasteland turns off Saga tutor, then the deck can't do anything unless it topdecks Dreadnought, flooded with 1/x dorks. More threat density and card draw seem good. It's awkward that Recruiter of the Guard/Ranger-Captain of Eos don't work. Karn, the Great Creator is possible with Tomb mana.


    Maybe a hybrid of the 2 could work. It won't be as competitive as other Dreadnought decks, but it could have meme value.


    //Creatures: 20
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hunted Horror
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Dark Confidant

    //Spells: 14
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Hymn to Tourach

    //Artifacts: 5
    1 Currency Converter
    1 Torpor Orb
    3 Scroll of Fate

    //Lands: 21
    3 Urza's Saga
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Scrubland
    4 Swamp
    2 Plains
    1 Castle Locthwain
    1 Karakas


    This way you shave a lot of the redundancy and dead draws. More room for disruption/protection, more threat density, card draw, and ways to convert redundant cards into value.

  3. #243
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    When you're down on 2c, it's best to play March over Ending (even if you run Currency Converter). The issues that list will have with Ensnaring Bridge are pretty concerning. Still have a lot of redundant Torpor Orb effects, and not playing blue has a significant cost. It's fine to meme, but you should really be getting off the Dreadnought-combat train; something else needs to be happening. You also need to pick a more frequent matchup to win than Thassa...so like let's try and focus on helpless decks like Tomb/Chalice, Loam/Mox, and Delver. It's not that difficult to carry over reasonable and maybe-reasonable matchups vs Cavern/Vial and Elves. There's still massive problems vs tier 1 (Uro, MindTwister) and spell-based combo, but if you want to meme do something like this:

    4x Vista
    4x Marsh Flats
    3x Swamp
    2x Plains
    2x Scrubland
    2x Saga
    1x Wasteland
    1x Volrath's (or Field, splitting basics on snow)
    1x Karakas

    4x Nought
    4x Qarsi High Priest
    4x Sultai Emissary
    2x Nalia De'Arnise
    2x Timeless Dragon (note how we met x+2 rule)
    1x Grief
    1x Solitude
    1x Bloodghast

    2x Kaya 3cmc

    2x Plow
    2x Bloodchief's Thist
    2x Damn
    2x Cling
    2x Entomb
    1x Sevinne's
    1x E Tutor
    1x Darkblast

    2x Currency Converter
    1x Nihil Spellbomb
    1x Expedition Map
    1x Scroll of Fate
    1x Bridge from Below

    SB:
    2x Voidwalker
    2x Oppo Agent
    2x Ashiok, Dream Render
    1x Stony Silence
    1x Torpor Orb
    1x Silent Gravestone
    1x Relic of Progenitus
    1x Cursed Scroll
    1x Ethersworn
    1x Powder Keg
    1x Mastery of the Unseen
    1x Humility

    It would be pretty easy to run a single Cavern of Souls or even a Castle Ardenvale if needed. Just note the difference between Qarsi and Mother of Runes: this deck doesn't actually care about removal and unlike Mother, Qarsi makes Noughts rather than flooding you away from making Noughts...and the whole time, it's not like this deck has to actually make a 12/12 to win. The deck has plenty to do on 1 and 2 mana, as a good number of cmc1 plays can utilize the 2nd mana. If needed Dauthi can be moved around to increase 2cmc plays, and ofc it works with Nalia. If you wanted more of the tribal stuff, flip-Lilly, Nullpriest of Oblivion, and Ayli all work, but this seems regressive.

    In terms of the matchups you have: the ability to develop mana with basics vs Wasteland, the ability to beat Blood Moon (note how little reliance there is on Saga, and how without Saga the targets aren't garbage like Shadowspear), enough anti-Chalice (Kaya, >1 cmc removals, Saga find Currency to flush 1-drops, Scroll, option for Cavern, and the SB stuff), enough anti-Delver with kill spells and Timeless, and enough kill spells to troll creature-feature decks like Vial and Elves. Kaldra might be a little annoying, but Qarsi does fine vs the exile after trample damage is denied trigger. You get an achievement badge for obliterating all Kaldra's damage -> sacrifice blocking Nought to Qarsi before exile -> put Nought on top with Volrath's -> manifest same Nought.

    The biggest problem in BW is that you know Arguel's Bloodfast is CA + life-loss for Shadow + Diamond Valley later, Nought and Shadow are cmc 1, and Orzhov Charm sees cmc1. We're mostly just waiting for playable "life gained = life drained" effect (preferably on a land).

  4. #244

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    When you're down on 2c, it's best to play March over Ending (even if you run Currency Converter). The issues that list will have with Ensnaring Bridge are pretty concerning. Still have a lot of redundant Torpor Orb effects, and not playing blue has a significant cost. It's fine to meme, but you should really be getting off the Dreadnought-combat train; something else needs to be happening. You also need to pick a more frequent matchup to win than Thassa...so like let's try and focus on helpless decks like Tomb/Chalice, Loam/Mox, and Delver.
    Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.

  5. #245
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.
    Legacy is and will always be a format about completing the checklist. Now this non-blue stuff will always fail the most important part of the checklist b/c they can't target all tier 1-1.5 decks, which is what makes it a meme deck. The second part of the checklist is essential effects like not dying to Goyf (aka MurkGoyf, and this includes a plan vs Daze), yard combo, spell-based combo, SnT, Thassa, Marit Lage, untargetables, go-wide, simple lock pieces (Chalice, E-Bridge), and so on.

    You can get away with a lot in legacy leagues b/c it's fake magic (boosted yolo-combo numbers), but you're turbodead if you ever invest in "I get completely dumpstered" by something simple on the checklist like E-Bridge. You don't want to play that anywhere near a local paper meta, which means you've just sinkholed yourself to the tune of $350 per Scrubland away from a competitive outlet.

    Let's recall how paper legacy works:
    -Burn is cheap, they can't beat SnT, they play 2x Bridge
    -Red Tomb/Chalice is fairly affordable, they will Bridge you to farm easy win %.
    -it costs $20 for anyone else to target you.

    If you were playing online, you can't help but point out how pathetic that league went against UR Delver...a massively overplayed deck, and easily one of Stiflenought and Dreadstill's easiest matchups.

  6. #246

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    When you aren’t playing the xerox suite or a toolbox deck, you have already given up the ability to answer everything. Presumably for efficiency. Thus he should play the more efficient card. The decklist with ending and 1 plateau will be miles better.

    A budget conscious red prison player is going to play the better more aggressive versions, rather than quad karn quad Chandra. You don’t have to return every serve to win a game of tennis, just more than your opponents.

  7. #247
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.
    Karn, the Great Creator decks. Karn Forge. Blue artifacts. Curses.

    That said, my plan was to board in an Underground Sea or a triland to get the 3rd color for Ending. Forgot to post a SB. Or you could even run 1 main.

  8. #248
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The second part of the checklist is essential effects like not dying to Goyf (aka MurkGoyf, and this includes a plan vs Daze), yard combo, spell-based combo, SnT, Thassa, Marit Lage, untargetables, go-wide, simple lock pieces (Chalice, E-Bridge), and so on.
    It's not hard to address those with the other 15 cards (SB).

    Example:
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Sudden Edict
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Underground Sea


    Thassa -> maindeck engine already hates it out
    value creatures -> maindeck engine already hates it out
    Goyf/Murktide -> 4x StP + 2 Edict + Relic (1 cmc or Split Second get around Daze)
    Marit Lage -> 4x StP + 2 Edict + Karakas
    untargetables -> 2 Edict or make bigger threat
    GY combo -> 2 Surgical + Ashiok + Kaya + Relic
    spell-based combo -> 8 Discard + 2 Canonist
    go wide -> 2 Plague Engineer + EE + Liliana
    Chalice -> maindeck Ending
    Bridge -> Ending with 3rd color + EE with 3rd color + Kaya reach

    That leaves a big weakness to OmniTell, but it's only 1 deck that sees less play than other combos, and there's still discard to fight it.

    The deck will still struggle to be good, but it should at least have the tools to function and do the meme. The problem with the other builds was they were getting blown out before they could even do the thing.

    Like Reeplcheep said, a BW version needs to be aggressive and proactive. It doesn't have blue so long-term card quality and card advantage is inferior for a control game. The manifest strategy seems more versatile but also slower and less reliable.

  9. #249

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    ThrabenU has been playing around with Dreadnought in other colors.

    VakaNought in BW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TapEmR5vQcA

    //Lands: 20
    4 Marsh Flats
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Scrubland
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Plains
    1 Karakas
    2 Silent Clearing

    //Creatures: 24
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hunted Horror
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Strict Proctor
    4 Eater of Days

    //Spells: 12
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    //Artifacts: 4
    4 Torpor Orb

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Deafening Silence
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Opposition Agent


    This was predictably bad and too 1-dimensional.

    Eater of Days is not even worth cheating out: 4-mana 9/8 vs Murktide Regent and Marit Lage at less mana. The deck has other glaring problems like overloading on redundant Torpor Orbs, no maindeck removal, limited interaction with opponent's strategy, no protection from topdeck removal, and no way to reduce draw variance. The video has a lot of 12/12s dying and then nothing.

    After watching that, I thought the meme could be preserved but improved with:
    -4 Eater
    -4 Proctor
    -3 Torpor
    -2 Silent Clearing
    +4 Mother of Runes (protect Dreadnought and Bob)
    +4 Swords to Plowshares (maindeck removal)
    +2 Scroll of Fate (better enabler)
    +2 Urza's Saga (threat & tutor Dreadnought)
    +1 Currency Converter / Relic of Progenitus (other Saga target)


    Coincidentally, Phil recently moved in that direction with this mono W build from the 5-0 dump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPAeCR5LGfI
    Mono W Nought (only made 2-3 in the video)

    //Lands: 23
    4 Urza's Saga
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port
    4 Plains
    2 Karakas
    1 Flagstones of Trokair
    1 Ancient Den

    //Creatures: 23
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Tocatli Honor Guard
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    1 Ethersworn Canonist

    //Artifacts: 10
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Torpor Orb
    3 Scroll of Fate

    //Spells: 4
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Torpor Orb
    1 Scroll of Fate
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Deafening Silence
    2 Cataclysm


    Compared to the BW version this upgrades to Scroll of Fates, Mom protection, maindeck StP, Sagas to find Dreadnought, no multiple Torpors, and no Eater. It also goes heavy on mana denial (Waste + Port + Thalia + Vial) to try to out-tempo with Dreadnought. It has the Aether Vial trick with 2 Dreadnoughts, although a 3-for-1 12/12 probably isn't worth it. Vial seems unnecessary card disadvantage if the manabase is cleaned up to have more reliable white.

    I'm surprised by all the 1-of enchant/artifacts but no Enlightened Tutor in the 75 to help find them. Without some extra tutor or card draw, the deck lacks threat density. There are a number of situations where Wasteland turns off Saga tutor, then the deck can't do anything unless it topdecks Dreadnought, flooded with 1/x dorks. More threat density and card draw seem good. It's awkward that Recruiter of the Guard/Ranger-Captain of Eos don't work. Karn, the Great Creator is possible with Tomb mana.


    Maybe a hybrid of the 2 could work. It won't be as competitive as other Dreadnought decks, but it could have meme value.


    //Creatures: 20
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Hunted Horror
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Dark Confidant

    //Spells: 14
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Hymn to Tourach

    //Artifacts: 5
    1 Currency Converter
    1 Torpor Orb
    3 Scroll of Fate

    //Lands: 21
    3 Urza's Saga
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Scrubland
    4 Swamp
    2 Plains
    1 Castle Locthwain
    1 Karakas


    This way you shave a lot of the redundancy and dead draws. More room for disruption/protection, more threat density, card draw, and ways to convert redundant cards into value.
    I love Thraben U's videos.

    And I absolutely love your BW Vaka Nought list.

    I am wondering if it would be improved by a light blue splash, replacing some of the StPs and Endings with Brainstorm and having the StPs in the board



    Alternatively perhaps by leaning heavier on Dark Ritual and blacks disruptive elements.

    I was inspired by Phil's awesome Red Death list which demonstrates just how strong Opposition Agent can be... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HyjBPZ_JU

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    4 Opposition Agent
    4 Hushbringer
    4 Dreadnought

    2 Sudden Edict
    2 StP
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Tocatl Honor Guard
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Pithing Needle

    4 Urza's Saga
    17 BWr Lands

    SB:
    3 Leyline of the Void
    3 Plague Engineer
    2 Torpor Orb
    2 Tocatl Honor Guard
    1 Scroll of Fate
    1 Liliana the Last Hope
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Relic of Progenitus

  10. #250

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    If you're going to meme out play Coco and live the Honorguard+Dreadnought instant speed dream.

  11. #251
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    I love Thraben U's videos.

    And I absolutely love your BW Vaka Nought list.

    I am wondering if it would be improved by a light blue splash, replacing some of the StPs and Endings with Brainstorm and having the StPs in the board

    Alternatively perhaps by leaning heavier on Dark Ritual and blacks disruptive elements.

    I was inspired by Phil's awesome Red Death list which demonstrates just how strong Opposition Agent can be...
    So I noticed a few things from Phil's games where Dreadnought kept losing

    1) He made the 12/12, but it died a lot (or Hushbringer dies and opponent gets 2-for-1)
    He could only make sorcery-speed Dreadnoughts and could not protect them. Black discard wasn't enough protection.
    -> Mother of Runes adds protection for Dreadnought/Hushbringer or forces out removal
    -> Scroll of Fate allows End Step instant Dreadnought to play around 2-for-1s or sorcery removal

    2) He flooded on Hushbringer effects without enough threats to make them good
    The 1/x bodies are very bad on their own. Slow clock. Do not trade with much. It was too easy for opponent to hate out Saga, then the deck falls short on threats.
    -> Hunted Horror probably needed to have high enough threat density to justify Hushbringers
    -> Scroll converts redundant Hushbringer effects into threats
    -> Currency Converter converts redundant Hushbringer effects into cards & threats

    3) Ran out of relevant cards.
    Dark Ritual is fast but card disadvantage. Unless you have the perfect opening 7, it increases risk of blowout by opponent's disruption.
    -> Dark Confidant and Castle Locthwain draw cards
    -> Scroll of Fate converts bad draws into threats
    -> Currency Converter converts bad draws into cards and threats

    4) Unstable mana got punished.
    Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics hurt even his mono W deck due to few basics and limited access to white mana.
    -> Play stable mana with many basics. The lands matter.

    If you splash blue or go WBr, what are the lands? Lands shouldn't be an afterthought. The lands matter.

    Maybe Swords in the SB could work. But Phil had many matches that needed removal.

  12. #252

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Played UG dressnought tonight to 1-2.
    Conclusions: The deck grinds hard and I won all 3 G1s. IMO when you're 3-0 in G1 and 1-4 otherwise you have something, you just need to refine the side. And my Side is quite a mess.
    Like always I played what I owned, so no trops yet.

    //Dressnought Package
    4 phyrexian dreadnought
    3 uro, titan of nature's wrath
    4 dress down
    4 stifle
    //Xerox Support
    4 ledger sgredder
    4 force of will
    2 force of negation
    3 sailors' bane
    2 brazen borrower
    4 consider
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    //Land
    4 misty rainforest
    2 polluted delta
    2 flooded strand
    4 breeding pool
    1 mysric sanctuary
    3 island
    2 wasteland
    //Sideboard
    4 leyline of the void
    2 submerge
    2 gilded drake
    4 leyline of sanctity
    1 Archmage Charm
    1 Commandeer
    1 Lazotep plating

    r1 Storm:
    g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
    r2 Esper Stoneblade:
    g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
    r3 Grixis Control
    G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.

    Anyways:
    I need 4 Veils in the SB, how did I overlook that? Dunno what else. I'm out of step with legacy and don't know what to tune for.

  13. #253
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Interesting deck. I like how Ledger Shredder + 12 cantrips support both Uro and Sailor's Bane.

    Unlike most Stiflenoughts you have higher threat density: 16 creatures
    Dreadnought's the only 2-for-1
    Sailors Bane is good against the spot removal that punishes Stiflenought
    Uro's good against non-exiling removal, including stuff that hurts Sailors Bane
    Threat variety should mean less weakness to removal decks.

    I like the concept!

    The manabase and SB are a mess though. Those should be the easiest places to gain win % without any changes to the core idea.

    //Lands: 18
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Breeding Pool
    4 Island
    2 Forest
    2 Wasteland

    4 Breeding Pool is overkill unless you're on Death's Shadow. To get more access to green, use basics and Vista instead. Less suicidal to your life total. More stable against nonbasic hate.

    Cut Mystic Sanctuary too. It's only good in some unique cases.
    UR uses it with Expressive Iteration + Daze as a draw engine. You don't have those.
    UWx can use it to put Terminus on top of library at instant speed, or get back copies of other good white removal. You don't have those.
    Here it's just putting back Force or cantrip. You already have too many ETB tapped nonbasics, so it's even worse than usual.



    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    //Sideboard
    4 leyline of the void
    2 submerge
    2 gilded drake
    4 leyline of sanctity
    1 Archmage Charm
    1 Commandeer
    1 Lazotep plating

    r1 Storm:
    g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
    r2 Esper Stoneblade:
    g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
    r3 Grixis Control
    G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.
    Don't expect to beat Storm with Forces postboard. They'll bring in a plan: Veil of Summer, discard, or Galvanic Relay. So you need a SB plan for that.
    Flusterstorm is good against all three of those.
    Spell Pierce too.
    If they're on Echo of Eons, you should board in graveyard hate so they can't wheel your hand.
    Is Leyline of Sanctity for Storm? Cut those from your SB.

    Rounds 2 & 3 are both midrange removal decks. Both are tough matchups for Dreadnoughts. It may be correct to board out some Dreadnoughts and rely more on your other threats. Bane is much stronger in both matchups. But if you draw Dreadnoughts too, then you fall behind in cards. Especially if you try to defend Dreadnought. Spending 2 blue cards to answer their 1 mana spot removal is a losing battle. You'll keep falling behind in resources and they'll eventually have enough removal for Dreadnought. That's what happened in your Round 2. In Round 3 you won because you backed Bane instead of Dreadnought. Against these decks you could bring in another threat like True-Name Nemesis or Scroll of Fate. Both are good against enemy spot removal. You could also bring in answers like Veil of Summer/Flusterstorm to win counter wars.

    What's Submerge for? Most Forest decks won't make bigger threats than you, so won't need spot removal against them. Consider 2-3 Run Afoul instead. It answers all the popular big creatures that could race you: Murktide Regent, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Yorion, Sky Nomad. It also deals with Baleful Strix-types that could block your creatures. It covers more ground that Submerge or Gilded Drake could in the current Legacy format. Top that off with Echoing Truth, which is also good against the cheaty fatties and good against token spam and Chalice too! Run Afoul+Echoing Truth covers more matchups than Submerge+Gilded Drake.

    For graveyard hate, you may want something you can actually cast. Surgical Extraction, Soul-Guide Lantern, Phyrexian Furnace (good against UR Delver too), Grafdigger's Cage (good against Elves and Maverick too but bad with Uro). Those cards have more flexibility. Leyline of the Void is just good on turn 0 against all-in decks like AllSpells and Hogaak, but as soon as opponent draws Force of Vigor then you run out of grave hate. Cantrips won't help when you can't cast Leylines.

    Sideboard should have some artifact hate too. Return to Nature? Collector Ouphe? Seeds of Innocence? Powder Keg (good against tokens and Elves too)? Normally UG would use Force of Vigor, but your green count is too low (Endurance has the same problem).


    //Example sideboard: 15
    3 Run Afoul
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Return to Nature
    1 Seeds of Innocence
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Echoing Truth
    Last edited by FTW; 07-18-2022 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #254

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Endurance was in the deck, relying on 12+ cantrips to cheat on green cards. Consider just seemed so much better than Abundant Harvest (putting two cards in the yard for Uro and Bane) that I Ended up cutting them and since like you said I'm already at 16 threats And the deck is crowded I cut out the Ice-Fang Coatls (which, themselves, replaced the Wavesifters in the Saga build I tried a while ago)

    I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?
    I understand with your proposed mana I'll have to cut it because I'm also cutting two islands.

    For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!

    I'll try something closer to your SB for the next iteration. Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
    I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.

  15. #255
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?
    It's just high variance. Sometimes it's great. Other times you get mana-screwed because your Island entered tapped or lost to nonbasic hate and you wish it was a basic Island. Because of that variance, you need a really good payoff to make it worth it.

    UR's getting away with it because they operate on low mana (not hurt as much by tapped land) and they use it to get back card advantage (Iteration). The Daze+Mystic+Iteration loop also makes their topdeck Daze less bad. So it's working for them. Your deck doesn't have those synergies or card advantage to return. Plus you have big plays like Uro and Bane, so you can get punished by tapped nonbasic Islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!
    Yeah, Stifle is great vs Storm. A lot of storm decks now use the graveyard (Echo of Eons, Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual) so you may want to board in grave hate too.

    But I would not bother with Leyline of Sanctity. Once they have Veil, they can freely set up a win that ignores Leyline. You shouldn't need the white Leyline against anything. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce + Veil should be better overall against combo and discard, and you can use them against fair blue decks too.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
    I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.
    Oh Ancient Tomb + Torpor? That explains the 8 Leylines. They just don't make sense in a Xerox deck without Tomb.

  16. #256
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    This is the most fun DressNought deck I've seen in a while. Aeon Bridge updated with new tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNM8_hyh6ZM


    //Lands: 20
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
    1 Wasteland
    3 Urza's Saga

    //Creatures: 9
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Griselbrand

    //Spells: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Veil of Summer
    3 Crop Rotation
    4 Show and Tell

    //Enchantments: 5
    4 Dress Down
    1 Omniscience

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Pithing Needle

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Stifle
    2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Brazen Borrower
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Shadowspear


    One of those Saga targets should be Expedition Map. Retrofitter should probably be Currency Converter, if not Map. Stifles could be Scroll of Fate or Flusterstorm.

    The mana may need some tweaks. It's very low on blue to make room for cute tutor toolbox tech that isn't relevant often.

  17. #257

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought


  18. #258
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill creates different play patterns, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 07-21-2022 at 12:32 PM.
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  19. #259

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.
    The thread is still covering like 4 different variants, you might want a new thread for the Grixis dominance.

  20. #260

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Or move this thread and move all the non-grixis decks to the "Dreadvelopment Zone"

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