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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #141
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Wait hold up, there were 9 STP decks in that top 32 and only 8 delver decks.
    Not sure how many were in the Saturday event, but assuming it was a low round event cutting to top 8, it matters that there is so few plow in the win and in range (#9-16). Only 2 Plow decks in range of pairing in the last round of Swiss. UWR Delver doesnt count b/c it's too easy to punish by ruining their mana, and they were on yolo-solo Plow (no Ending).

    The main point though is that you know the only wincon is making a sorcery speed dude with summoning sickness and passing the turn (such that Daze can't protect the dude). This is a horrifically bad scenario where luck is the only way you're winning vs Plow/Ending spammers. Skill doesn't matter when you're playing that hard into known resistance.

  2. #142

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Not sure how many were in the Saturday event, but assuming it was a low round event cutting to top 8, it matters that there is so few plow in the win and in range (#9-16). Only 2 Plow decks in range of pairing in the last round of Swiss. UWR Delver doesnt count b/c it's too easy to punish by ruining their mana, and they were on yolo-solo Plow (no Ending).

    The main point though is that you know the only wincon is making a sorcery speed dude with summoning sickness and passing the turn (such that Daze can't protect the dude). This is a horrifically bad scenario where luck is the only way you're winning vs Plow/Ending spammers. Skill doesn't matter when you're playing that hard into known resistance.
    Only two? Are we looking at the same results. There were 3 decks in that range (with 1 in the top 8, and the other five past the cutoff)
    To be fair, one of those swords decks WAS a delver deck.
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...jdadd_nd_place
    But also they're on scroll of fate.

  3. #143
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    You can see the round progression in the top 8, showing StifleNought dodging the Plow deck. Only matches it faced there were UR Delver -> Infect -> UR Delver.

    As far as Depths goes, while they have Plow and an amount of Ending, they are trying to make a Marit Lage (effectively a StifleNought) vs actual Dreadnought. It's pretty easy to blow them out, and on the defensive side they're quite low on removals (this one played 4x Plow, 1x Ending, 0x Boseju). Their creature suite is also a joke vs Bolt + Dress Down [Reclaimer and KotR are x/2s]. It's like playing against Maverick, except way easier to beat.

  4. #144
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I'm comfortable conceding the point that the UW Dreadnaught list beats the Grixis Dreadnaught list. One plays Plows and the other plays Bolts. In a room full of 12/12s it's not really a contest. But I've yet to be in that room. I'm not entirely confidant such a room exists. As you said, it's a rare mirror.
    https://youtu.be/giT-ahFDKSM&t=38m00s
    About 38 minutes in. This is Rood's style (Daze) of UW Dreadstill in a meme setup (Saga/Retro/Mutavault/Stubborn Denial). Again, not close. StifleNought can't Ponder its way out of the fact that it cannot protect its sorcery speed threats with Daze.

    Now unlike my build which is just going to shut down a StifleNought deck by every metric (damage, mana denial, and mill), Rood's style (even in a meme setup) is going to do everything StifleNought deck can, just better. Note also that Rood was playing fast and loose with Fetching, while the opponent routinely took themselves off Stifle (when generating trades over mana denial is StifleNought's only possible wincon).

    The next match is worse StifleNought (Death's Shadow). The same issues that plague StifleNought are seen here as well.

    Edit: fixed link, I think. let me know if it's broken.
    Last edited by Fox; 04-20-2022 at 04:29 PM.

  5. #145

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    The first 58 seconds of that are all Dragon Ball Z. Timecode your links.

  6. #146
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    The first 58 seconds of that are all Dragon Ball Z. Timecode your links.
    I was on mobile, so not sure how to do that. As above, go to 38min mark.

  7. #147

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I was on mobile, so not sure how to do that. As above, go to 38min mark.
    append &t=XmYs to any youtube link to make it start anywhere you wish.

  8. #148
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    https://youtu.be/giT-ahFDKSM
    About 38 minutes in. This is Rood's style (Daze) of UW Dreadstill in a meme setup (Saga/Retro/Mutavault/Stubborn Denial). Again, not close. StifleNought can't Ponder its way out of the fact that it cannot protect its sorcery speed threats with Daze.
    The Saga/Retro/Muta meme works surprisingly well. He gets even more abuse out of running Saga with Standstill.

    Expressive Iteration looks really bad in UR Stiflenought, especially vs Dreadstill. I kept wondering what the other player was doing with 5+ cards in hand without Forcing anything and how Rood wasn't losing. Opponent must have been stuck on multiple dead draws like Iterations, Dreadnoughts, Daze.

    Vision Charm is cute for dodging sorcery speed interaction on Dreadnought, but why isn't Rood on Stifle? Stifle seems good with the Daze+Force Spike plan and the 0 Ponder plan.

  9. #149
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    The Saga/Retro/Muta meme works surprisingly well. He gets even more abuse out of running Saga with Standstill.

    Expressive Iteration looks really bad in UR Stiflenought, especially vs Dreadstill. I kept wondering what the other player was doing with 5+ cards in hand without Forcing anything and how Rood wasn't losing. Opponent must have been stuck on multiple dead draws like Iterations, Dreadnoughts, Daze.

    Vision Charm is cute for dodging sorcery speed interaction on Dreadnought, but why isn't Rood on Stifle? Stifle seems good with the Daze+Force Spike plan and the 0 Ponder plan.
    The thing that's funny is that Delver players haven't quite realized that having quad-laser Iteration is a bad idea; it just devours hand space while waiting for turn 5-6 (on average) to roll around where they have 2 mana on board and an open land drop...yet somehow the StifleNought group figured out this ain't no 4-of. More hilarious still, Delver is doubling down on that bad idea with Mystic Sanctuary. This is just the absolute perfect deckbuilding call if you want to get consistently destroyed by enemy Stifle, Daze, and Wasteland lol.

    What you're seeing @FTW is what StifleNought is. You just play lands and you kill spell their dudes after untapping. It's not like they have something else going on. Given enough time however, yes you need to have lifegain or face direct life total pressure from Bolt and Kroxa despite insta-killing every threat they deploy. Just don't let them pick fights with mana denial and you basically can't lose. This is why it's so shocking that the legacy format online is allowing something this one-dimensional walk into top 8s. Like these StifleNought decks have to be hitting so much back to back Delver. DDFT is another basically unlosable matchup...but StifleNought should be well below 25% winrate vs anything removal-based.

    On Vision Charm vs Stifle: Rood's deckbuilding style is way different than what I do. You're gonna see a lot more Daze and a lot more extreme choices (huge maindeck and SB slot commitments to narrower effects). The build in the video is a troll build where it's like "surely the legacy format hasn't gotten so crippled by their fear of Murktide and Kappa that they can't actually beat MutaThopter meme'ing, right? Surely the legacy format isn't going to let me get away with murdering enemy Saga with Vision Charm and trolling DDFT and High Tide with the other modes, right? Surely the legacy format isn't going to let me get away with playing the lost land drops of 4x Daze and 4x Saga with 8x slots of colorless lands, right?"

    The Retro/Muta/Saga stuff is there for the joke value. The punchline is the last round where UR Delver gets rolled - and let's be clear, it took Rood meme'ing with Doomskar, instead of Verdict, for Delver to avoid getting 0-2'd. VoDs like this go out to everyone in legacy complaining about UR Delver; because uhh...we're over here on DreadStill blatantly worsening our deck for the lulz when we get bored, and we are genuinely struggling to lose to Delver.

    Rood has been trialing Vision Charm and StubbyD within his Daze builds for competitive viability however. I have doubts about how viable this is outside of combo-boosted leagues during a Delver-rich pushover era. Outside of that environment I disfavor deckbuilding myself into a loss to Chalice (especially when Emry will come down and just recur the Chalice I had to Force), and I'm not thrilled about no 2/2 split of Scroll/Dress Down versus Plow/Ending: the Gathering. Daze has a polarizing influence on deckbuilding, and I don't play Daze with Tundra, so I'd imagine Rood is seeing more win % from Vision Charm, otherwise it would be Stifle. Vision Charm is as powerful as it is polarized; if wotc attempted a real fix to legacy by banning Fetchlands and reprinting Duals, I'd be overjoyed to drop Stifle for Vision Charm in a fraction of a millisecond. Vision Charm's ceiling is somewhere between very high and infinite (in the sense that it can only keep getting better over time, e.g. it one-shots Saga, it insta-RiPs DDFT and Tide, it can combine with Ashiok to attack the library, etc...), but Stifle's floor as a Sinkhole you can goldfish with generally has more reliability. Stifle also has it's own brand of fun, like hitting Yorion's single return to play trigger and "how about we don't bring that Kaldra bullcrap back into play off Flickerwisp's EoT trigger."

  10. #150

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Soooo what is the "ideal" list right now then?

  11. #151

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    There is no one ideal list as Bant/Sultai/Temur Dressnought lists as well as Grixis Deathnought lists are all consistently 5-0ing. It's personal preference based on whether you prefer green for Uro or black for Thoughtseize and Death's Shadow.


    I personally love how clean the Bant shell is...

    4 Dress Down
    4 Ponder
    4 Prismatic Ending
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
    1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
    1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
    2 [A] Tundra
    3 [A] Tropical Island
    4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand

  12. #152
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    This latest Grixis one cuts Iteration for better tempo cards and seems much closer to UR Dreadstill:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...jdadd_th_place


    //Creatures: 9
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
    2 Murktide Regent
    1 Brazen Borrower

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Sudden Edict
    3 Daze

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Dress Down

    //Artifacts: 1
    1 Scroll of Fate

    //Lands: 19
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Meltdown
    1 Plague Engineer
    2 Torpor Orb
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils


    Black does not seem to be adding much.

    Would this just have more stable mana with:
    -2 Kroxa
    -1 Fatal Push
    -1 Sudden Edict
    -1 Plague Engineer
    -1 Torpor Orb
    -1 land
    +4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    +1 Daze
    +1 Borrower/Subtlety
    +1 Scroll
    (assumes player does not want to play Standstill, otherwise just play UR Dreadstill)

    Kroxa just does not seem very good.

  13. #153
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Let's also contrast the cost difference between UR Dreadstill's 1x Volc and the cost of 3x Volc + 2x Sea + 1x Badlands (or 2x Tundra and 3x Trop). We should also reinforce the concept that the more you spend on duals in a Dreadnought deck, the harder you lose to Plow/Ending & removal-based decks...which is exactly what you are going to be paired against everywhere outside of online leagues and comically inbred/Delver-flooded online challenges.

    That's somewhere around a $3,500 detour to have a basically unwinnable matchup vs DnT and UWx. The matchup vs Chalice and fair jank (maverick, dead guy, etc) and Elves will also be rather highly unfavored. Too many must-dodge matchups just so you can "meta-game" against Delver and combo. Deckbuilding towards this many unsalvageable matchups just isn't competitive.
    ---
    On Brazen Borrower: this card is quickly going the way of Crucible; there is a better way to get the effect. Just as anyone who wants Crucible main should immediately SB it and add maindeck Karn, so too should anyone who wants Brazen's bounce just cut Brazen and change it to Otawara. The main issue is that Daze is a fairly worthless card vs any deck not called Delver, and picking up Islands (+low land count thanks to Ponder) is highly antagonistic to playing the better card.

    As @FTW brings up: Why is the DRC, the best red 1-drop, missing...why are we not following DRC with Standstill (trigger to DRC-mill to next land drop)...where are our higher land counts, which favor Otawara and Shark'nado...and where is our 1-card delirium from 2x Saga tutor suicide-Nought...and where are the Lavamancers to protect from Surgical, provide non-combat damage, use DRC's yard fuel, and mill lands from GY to exile for better draw 7 after we respond to a MindTwister with either kill or Otawara the Narset, all through Teferi passive?

    On Ponder: why are we trying to cheat on land totals, thus locking one's self on counter Chalice on 1 or lose (this loss of FoW ensures loss to Emry recur Chalice and inability to ever regain FoW dominance vs 8cast)? Why are you stuffing a deck with 11-12 slots of Daze/Ponder/Bstorm, when all of these are horrifically bad vs your absolute worst matchups (again that's UWr and DnT)? Why are we tapping out of Stifle, and otherwise tapping our Stifle into enemy Daze?

    On Daze: why are you trying to protect a sorcery-speed, summoning sick threat with Daze vs opponents who get to untap, draw, and make a land drop? Why are you running a spell that is basically worthless in every matchup that isn't Delver or combo?
    ---
    These StifleNought decks all exhibit cascading failures of deckbuidling theory; each based on the flawed notion that one can conventionally play normal legacy staples while doing something atypical [Dreadnought]. When decks are built like this, they are just Delver with higher variance. Play UGR, or UBR, or UR...it doesn't matter if the fundamental issues aren't addressed. Cutting the CA (even bad CA like Iteration) is regressive. If you were already getting ruined by removal, it's going to get worse by removing CA and locking yourself into the all-in directly into the removal.

    On 3x Daze rather than 4x, it's a baby step towards playing the right card with these slots. If you can't play 8-4-2 magic [8x 1cmc, 4x 2cmc, 2x 3+cmc threat], or something very close, then you really shouldn't be playing Daze. Only exception to that is decks with heavy combo commitment (SnT, DDFT, UBx Reaimator).

  14. #154

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    You keep posting these absolute deck-building heuristics but they're dated and wrong.
    And then you see lists proving other.
    Like here:
    even bad CA like Iteration
    Come on.

  15. #155
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You keep posting these absolute deck-building heuristics but they're dated and wrong.
    And then you see lists proving other.
    Like here:

    Come on.
    Fox's heuristics tend to be right for Standstill and Dreadnought decks. Although they may not generalize to all of Legacy, Fox usually ends up being right about the Dreadnought and Standstill mechanics he's specialized in.

    4 Expressive Iteration was amazing in UR with Ragavan's help to cheat on mana. Without Ragavan it's gotten worse in tempo, since it forces tapping down at sorcery speed and needing to wait until you have a land drop or 3+ lands. That play does not fit well in a tempo game plan. You already see Delver cutting back on copies and 4c moving away from being Exit.dec.

    It's even worse in tempo Dreadnought, due to anti-synergy with the Stifle+Wasteland+Daze plan. For example, the Legacy Challenge Grixis list I linked cut all copies of ExIt from the earlier builds. Where are the lists proving Fox is wrong about Iteration?

  16. #156
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You keep posting these absolute deck-building heuristics but they're dated and wrong.
    And then you see lists proving other.
    Like here:

    Come on.
    I think you're missing how Iteration works. The Delver deck cannot cast this card until turn 3 +1 turn for each time they activate their own Wasteland, alt-cast Daze, or they themselves get strip mined by an opponent.

    Now ask yourself how sandbagging the land drop to play Iteration into the turn 5-6 Daze is going to end. So if you're ever confused as to how StifleNought is farming Delver, that's the mechanism - and it's so much easier to farm when Delver doubles down on a really bad idea with Shame Island (Sanctuary).

    Attacking a glorified Divination overcommit is pretty trivial for Wasteland/Daze/Stifle...but it's the inbred overrepresentation of Delver that is almost certainly behind letting StifleNought into a few top8s with serial good matchups. On the league side where reimbursement is tied to how fast a league can be played, it is pretty trivial for decks like Infect/Shadow/StifleNought to farm all-in combo decks playing the speedrun subgame.

    While we might be tempted to call farming Delver and combo "clever metagaming," it turns out to not really be so clever if you can't ever beat Plow/Ending, DnT, Grixis, and anything else removal-based. Here we have the worst possible mixture: overpriced + underperforming, particularly in paper...which is otherwise where we would our new players from.
    ---
    Now you are in a Dreadnought thread where every card is not a 1-card combo, and with zero games with Expressive Iteration I can definitively tell you that randomly flipping over piece A but not B (or vice-versa) in the top 3 isn't exactly productive. It's even more pointless if you're flipping over multiples of A or multiples of B. It's also pointless to tap yourself out of Stifle with sorceries in a deck that is trying to protect summoning sick sorcery speed threats with Daze...

    ^No matter how bad all of that is, it's better than having 0x sources of CA and trying to 2-for-1 yourself, all while never having a turn 1 threat Daze actually could protect...but yes, Iteration is still a particularly crappy CA source for A then B strategies...and when they surgical your Dreadnoughts and you've got basically nothing to enable, that CA is gonna look even worse.
    ---
    Now on UR Delver, a deck with mono-1-card combos, it is perplexing that they would ever play 4x of a card they should want literally nowhere near an opening hand, since it's a turn 5-6 card. They want it in the top 12, sure....so like just like play 3x? Seems pretty simple to understand how that card in the opening hand = not pressuring opponents = Daze becoming a pretty easy liability for opponents to target...and like all the opposing strategy has to do is design their deck to not die to a modestly power-crept, easier to kill Goyf named Murktide.

  17. #157

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Fox's heuristics tend to be right for Standstill and Dreadnought decks. Although they may not generalize to all of Legacy, Fox usually ends up being right about the Dreadnought and Standstill mechanics he's specialized in.
    Standstill, sure.
    Dreadnought. No.
    4 Expressive Iteration was amazing in UR with Ragavan's help to cheat on mana. Without Ragavan it's gotten worse in tempo, since it forces tapping down at sorcery speed and needing to wait until you have a land drop or 3+ lands. That play does not fit well in a tempo game plan. You already see Delver cutting back on copies and 4c moving away from being Exit.dec.

    It's even worse in tempo Dreadnought, due to anti-synergy with the Stifle+Wasteland+Daze plan. For example, the Legacy Challenge Grixis list I linked cut all copies of ExIt from the earlier builds. Where are the lists proving Fox is wrong about Iteration?
    They're out there!
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2022-04-16
    2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (SLD) 225
    2 Murktide Regent (MH2) 337
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought (NON) 0
    2 Expressive Iteration (STX) 379
    4 Ponder (NCC) 229
    4 Brainstorm (AFC) 79
    4 Daze (NON) 0
    1 Fatal Push (KLR) 84
    4 Force of Will (NON) 0
    4 Lightning Bolt (STA) 42
    1 Red Elemental Blast (NON) 0
    4 Stifle (HA5) 8
    1 Scroll of Fate (C19) 58
    4 Dress Down (MH2) 334
    1 Badlands (NON) 0
    4 Polluted Delta (ZNE) 2
    4 Scalding Tarn (MH2) 439
    1 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279
    2 Underground Sea (NON) 0
    3 Volcanic Island (NON) 0
    4 Wasteland (ZNE) 30


    3 Red Elemental Blast (NON) 0
    1 Abrade (AKR) 136
    1 Blue Elemental Blast (NON) 0
    1 End the Festivities (VOW) 155
    1 Grafdigger's Cage (M20) 227
    1 Hidetsugu Consumes All (NEO) 361
    1 Hurkyl's Recall (NON) 0
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils (WAR) 61
    1 Plague Engineer (MH1) 100
    2 Surgical Extraction (NON) 0
    1 Torpor Orb (NON) 0

  18. #158
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I'm afraid I know exactly what I'm talking about on Dreadnought. These StifleNought lists are almost exclusively *not just* A & B decks, they are predominantly A followed by B immediately.

    So when you tap down 2 mana for Iteration, you likely lack the mana to also do thing A then B in that same turn cycle - that is a problem b/c Iteration can't keep both cards beyond that turn. Now you're passing the turn without progress while the opponent gets even more land drops to ignore Daze, in a deck without 1-drops to maintain pressure while spinning your wheels.

    At some point you need to understand that Iteration in StifleNought is pretty reliant on flipping over a Wasteland (1-card combo) and that Wasteland having text - so like vs a Delver opponent....but when you are up against removal-based strats, particularly ones with basics, you're not making meaningful progress by casting Iteration. You're very much all-in on the removal-based player fighting over a card that doesn't matter at all: Iteration.

    If you'd like to see this in action, go back and rewatch the matchups on @Piproberts yourube. It's not particularly challenging to change the names of the cards in Dreadstill to things like more Endings, a different PW name, Snapcaster Mage, REB - the stuff in more normal removal-based blue midrange piles. If you don't let the StifleNought player generate trades over mana denial, don't let them Daze, and don't counter do-nothings like Iteration, then it's pretty hard to ever lose.

  19. #159

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I'm afraid I know exactly what I'm talking about on Dreadnought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    and with zero games with Expressive Iteration


    I can't believe I'm somehow in the position of having to say "maybe play with one of the best two drop selection spells ever printed" to you.

  20. #160

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Anyways: Ledger Shredder from SCN is the truth and I suggest y'all give it a whirl. And bonus, it's not red so you can stuff it into the UG builds.

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