Page 14 of 18 FirstFirst ... 4101112131415161718 LastLast
Results 261 to 280 of 358

Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #261
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,322

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.
    So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

    What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

    On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

    I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.

  2. #262
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I agree with Fox about the spaghetti thing.

    The Challenge was won by UB Shadow. Both days. That says a lot. That weekend was full of combo and Delver (good matchups for Stiflenought), lacking fair midrange and control (bad matchups). The online meta reacted to a strong combo showing the previous week. When Shadow dominates, Stiflenought can do well too. In another meta maybe not.

    Is that enough to qualify for "Established" status? Sure. Established doesn't have to be Tier 1 or good against everything.

    But is it enough to say that Grixis Slipnought is better than other version of Dressnought (UR, UG) or Dreadstill (UR, UW)? That's where the spaghetti argument comes in. Maybe UR Dressnought or UR Dreadstill would have done just as well in that Challenge, since they all beat up on combo and Delver. We can't know because no one played them. That's not evidence one is better than the others.

    The online meta is small and inbred, affected by influencers and social media. Certain decks attract attention and then get played a lot. How can you compare when one has much more spaghetti thrown? There are many Grixis players playing often. Other variations see very little play. Piproberts and Rood are the only online Dreadstill players, they don't play often, and yet they still have some 5-0s and high win %s.

    "Standstill is pretty much unplayable" is not valid when Landstill still makes paper top 8s & a top 16 at SCG Con: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=34

    I think the Grixis discussion should either move to the old Stiflenought thread or start a new thread. It's a distinct archetype from Dreadstill, closer to the old Stiflenought decks. But it's also far from the lists in this OP. This thread has been more about experimenting with a wide range of Dress Down + Dreadnought brews ("Six Shades"). Not focused discussion on the successful Grixis archetype. This is a good place to continue discussing new brews.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-21-2022 at 05:27 PM.

  3. #263

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    2 established threads entitled:
    Dreadstill, Enter the Fist
    Grixis Slipknot

    1 new/development:
    Dreadvelopement Zone: 1 mana 12 power ROI

    Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"

  4. #264
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"
    I second the separate "Slipknot" thread.

  5. #265

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Brews For Crews for non-slip Dreadvelopement.
    Sorry. But this is an opportunity

  6. #266
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,242

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

    What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

    On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

    I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.
    My bad, wasn't looking to make a commentary on Standstill, just making the case that this deck is different enough to be it's own thread. That's all, sorry for the bad comment. Editing post now.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #267

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I really like the Temur Dressnought list that jcknox just 5-0ed with.

    Creature (9)
    1 Brazen Borrower
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    Sorcery (7)
    3 Expressive Iteration
    4 Ponder

    Instant (20)
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Slip Out the Back
    4 Stifle
    1 Stubborn Denial

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Land (20)
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    1 Abrade
    1 End the Festivities
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Meltdown
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Scroll of Fate
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Torpor Orb

    Really well built in my opinion. 4 Stifle, 4 Dress Down, 2 Slip Out the Back seems to be the optimal mix of enablers whether on the Kroxa plan or the Uro plan. The single Stubborn Denial is spicy.

    The only surprise to me is the lack of even a single DRC given how well DRC enables Uro, but I guess this route makes all the win conditions immune to Bolt.

  8. #268

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    This is what I took to the NRG today:
    Deck
    4 Consider
    3 Island
    3 Sailors' Bane
    2 Brazen Borrower
    4 Breeding Pool
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Wasteland
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Ledger Shredder
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    4 Ponder
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Dress Down
    1 Otawara, Soaring City

    Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Veil of Summer
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Scroll of Fate
    1 Archmage's Charm
    2 Hullbreacher

    1-3
    Went to time vs delver and never drew a single threat in the third game
    Overwhelmed by goblins in two.
    Managed to beat up on UW. G1 they relied on Jace and forgot ward, g2 a timely stifle to keep them from getting to 4 and wrathing my dreadnoughts.
    Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
    Then the long ride home.

  9. #269
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,322

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. You can't touch their threats (DRC goes completely unchecked), and Murktide goes unchecked in the air while also being able to check a 7/7 Bane in defensive combat. Right off the bat you've signed up for a race where you can't afford to ever slip up, again particularly vs nonstop DRC surveils into their answers.

    Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.

    Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.

    ANT is a match the odds dictate you should have won. So how you got the 1-3 is definitely surprising, but by all rights a 1-3 performance is highly expected based on those pairings.

    Always have to be careful about StifleNought and just how many bad matchups it carries around. Delver and combo are the only reliably good ones, but you constructed yourself out of a round 1 bye and lost any chance to stay on the farm the Delver train.

    Never forget that StifleNought is not intrinsically competitive; rather it is completely reliant on randomly pairing into Delver and combo to generate competitive-looking results.

  10. #270

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.
    How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?
    Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.
    The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
    My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
    I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.

  11. #271
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,322

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Delver has 1 mana threats and Daze, so you aren't winning the race by the odds. Probably the closest deck, in terms of just racing Delver without the ability to interact, is Reanimator...and they're all-in on lifelink and pseudo-lifelink (Archon). Since you don't have lifegain near that level (Uro is slow), it becomes more important to have cards like Bolt to either take 2 blue cards or force them into the play pattern of cantripping aggressively to find a replacement dude.

    ^this kind of racing is high variance on its own, but when you're leaving them on a DRC without dictating how they need to use cantrips (again, to find the replacement dude)...it uh, isn't going to end well. There's already problems with trying to stop a flying Goyf with a 1/3, but you let the DRC go unchecked and you're you're going to be looking at MurkGoyf into MutkGoyf lines (at which point countering the second one doesn't stop them from making a 13/13 out of the first one)...so that stat line advantage has a timer on it. You have a very short window where perfect draws from your deck can steal a game before they start linearly digging for answers...which incidentally also linearly powers out their Goyf train at double speed (1x DRC), triple speed (2x DRC), etc.

    Edit: you were talking about Goblins. If their turn 1 is Vial, that would be "lucky" for you. What I see however is a deck that goes Cavern -> Lackey vs a deck with zero answers -> dumps in Matron -> shoots your 1/3 blocker with an uncounterable Munitions Expert. This would be the good scenario where you didn't insta-rip to Show and Muxus in turn 2.

    You can't give an opponent an unchecked & uncounterable SnT effect (even if you can buy a little time by discarding Stifle and Dress Down...which takes you off the ability to go bigger with 12/12 since you lost the enabler). In the background, your mana is pretty terrible with 4x duals, which gives them even more agency.
    ---
    On the UW pilot, it sounds like they probably had ample opportunities to deploy that Fetch and/or activate it around Stifle. Even if they had to crack a Fetch into Stifle, it still sounds like they had no shortage of spots to trade FoW on that Stifle without turning on Veil.

    This really does sound like an incompetent pilot who did not realize that your main wincon vs them is generating trades with Stifle vs mana. It really does sound like they chose the spot to lose big time to Stifle all on their own...and that is consistent with a player who plays into an onboard "trick" like Ward 4.

    They also opened up an event with 2 losses (?) despite playing cantrip cartel and Plow full of Ending +/- 2 banned effects if they had a single MindTwister in there. Short of getting legacy'd twice in a row, this really points to a pilot problem.

  12. #272
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?
    Agree with Fox.

    Goblins -> T1 Caverns Lackey on the play
    You can't Force, no 1-mana blocker, no 1-mana removal. All you can do is pray they don't have Muxus, Goblin Grandee = game over. Goblin Ringleader and Sling-Gang Lieutenant are bad for you too.
    Your best tool against that line is to pass and hold up Stifle. You can Stifle the ETB trigger or the Lackey combat trigger. But that only saves you from 1 attack/threat, and they may have more gas. Depending on how long you have to hold up Stifle, or if they use mana denial on you, it may stop you from being able to tap out for your 2-3 mana creatures, giving them tempo to get more goblins and go wide.

    With Goblins on the draw, you might think the turn 2 1/3 will hold off their 1/1, but they have Goblin-removal for blockers. Or they can go for Goblin Piledriver (protection from Blue), which gets around most of your creatures. They also have Goblin Cratermaker (1: destroy target 12/12 or 15/15).

    UR Delver poses the same kind of problem.
    UR -> T1 Volcanic DRC on the play
    They can protect with Force and Daze and keep the pressure on you before you can land a threat.

    Turn 1 Goblin Lackey and Dragon's Rage Channeler are why most fair decks in the format need 1-mana removal. Playing fair without removal leaves a weakness to these strategies, so you need some other plan to fight them. You can't rely on just going over them with big creatures because they have tools to out-tempo you (Wasteland, Port, Vial, Daze, removal).

    UG's best plan against DRC + Murktide is Endurance. Maybe you need to up the green count to support Endurance? Otherwise 3x Run Afoul in the SB and/or 1-2 Blue Elemental Blast.


    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
    My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
    I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.
    That's a good line! I think you also got a bit lucky that you drew 2 Dreadnoughts (4 copies) before they drew 2 StP/Ending (7-8 copies), so they had to rely on Jace to answer the 2nd one and lost to mana denial.

    I'm surprised you didn't beat ANT. Sounds like bad luck. With 6x Force 4x Stifle 1x Fluster 3x Veil 3x Mindbreak, that seems like an easy matchup.
    Edit: Actually I think your SB is overboarded for Storm. You could cut some of those slots to make room for bad matchups.
    Last edited by FTW; 08-03-2022 at 09:46 AM.

  13. #273
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. Against Goblins,
    Even worse: the mana. 4x Breeding Pool + 0 Prismatic Vista + 0 Forest. Delver and Goblins are both Wasteland decks. His deck runs Uro, which forces blue fetch to get UG dual. 2-4 mana creatures are not stopping 1-mana threats.

    These matchups should get a bit better going to
    4 Misty
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Breeding Pool
    2 Forest
    3 Island
    1 Otawara

    Fetching basics against Delver/Goblins will prevent some losses to their mana denial


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning.
    Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.

  14. #274
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,322

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.
    The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.

  15. #275

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.
    Where did I say this? They had 4 mana, tapped out for Jace and downticked. There was no answer for the Bane that turn. Unless they had a wrath in hand (which they didn't because they didn't cast it on their next turn after I added an Uro to the board) they were not in a position to answer the Bane and scooped. Exactly why my deck is running Bane instead of Murktide.

  16. #276
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
    Then the long ride home.
    How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor.

    7 pieces of hate to bring in, plus 2-6 potential more with marginal disruption.
    Last edited by FTW; 08-03-2022 at 02:09 PM.

  17. #277

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor with your SB choices.
    This is based on memory after malding over it after the match.
    So G1 I've lost at least a stifle and i assume something else to another duress and the board is we each have some number of lands, I have a dreadnought in play and a Force of Negation in hand. On his turn he looks like he's going for it. My thought process is that if it is galvanic relay he'll be able to go off again next turn and my force won't be enough so I cut him off here.
    I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.
    Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
    In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher
    I keep a hand with at least; Brainstorm, Consider, Ponder and Stifle. T1 I get the stifle taken, and t2 I ponder and put force in position 3 (so that it will be the card under the car I'd draw for turn, but still accessable off the brainstorm and consider.), he again takes something on his turn.
    My turn 3 I forget what I did, but I made sure to leave up 1 mana for the cantrip and to take the counterspell. He casts another discard spell, takes one cantrip, and the casts a ritual. His hand is pretty full so I felt i had no choice but to let it go off but then he casts another duress. So now my only interaction is Brazen Borrower, which only works if he doesn't kill me this turn. He kills me this turn.

  18. #278
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
    In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher
    I think this is a mistake.

    Dreadnought is a very powerful tool against combo. Cheap efficient clock. They don't have removal or blockers. This is the 12/12's best match!

    I would go
    In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher, 1 Flusterstorm
    Out: 3 Sailors' Bane, 4 Ledger Shredder, 1 Uro, 1 Consider

    Basically cut the slow midrangey stuff and rely on the fast Dreadnought kill. Otherwise they get too much time to sculpt and disrupt.
    Last edited by FTW; 08-05-2022 at 10:15 AM.

  19. #279

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.

  20. #280
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,991

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.
    The standalone threats are slow clocks though (gives them time to get a 2nd wind) and you don't care about 2-for-1s vs combo. Sailors Bane can't kill until turn 7ish? Stiflenought kills turn 4. The bigger threats also mean tapping out on your main phase (harder to hold up mana for tricks). Dreadnought is mana-efficient. You can hold up Veil, Fluster, Stifle, Brainstorm... while -12ing them. You can't do that while tapping down to play the bigger threats. Ledger Shredder doesn't cost much mana but it's a very slow clock, so maybe that's the cut.

    Combo is one of the best matchups for Dreadnought. If you don't keep in Dreadnought for combo, why even play Dreadnought instead of Bant Uro or RUG Ledger Shredder?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.
    He went off with Ad Naus from 8 life? After you Forced an important spell last turn? He must have gotten lucky too.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)