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Thread: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

  1. #1

    [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Dress Down is an incredibly synergistic addition to Stiflenought. Dress Down has significant utility beyond the combo, works beautifully with Uro and also cantrips so that your Dreadnought getting Sworded doesn't set you back. Instead it just gains you 12 life for the cost of two mana while maintaining card parity. And that's the floor for the card. The ceiling is that one single swing with Dreadnought wins the game while your opponent is still searching for a removal spell. Dress Down finally made Dreadnought a competitive legacy level card. This deck initially started development as Vaka Nought but the Dressnought name seems like the better route to go since Vaka Nought was based on an inside joke that few people understand. Here is the original thread this deck originated in... https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...12s-and-Titans

    The game plan for every Dressnought list is to disrupt your opponent's manabase with Stifle and Wasteland, disrupt their win conditions using Daze, FoW or Dress Down, and win using a Dreadnought and either Uro or Dragon's Rage Channeler (alongside Lazav to abuse the Surveil shenanigans) while they are still rebuilding. Dress Down makes this game plan much more consistent with a much smaller floor should the Dreadnought be destroyed. Stifle should be aimed primarily at fetchlands/wastelands when the matchup allows. Stifling the Dreadnought trigger makes sense against decks that are not playing either white or black, and against decks that are focused on comboing out quickly and thus do not pack maindeck removal. But in the majority of matchups, you should aim your early game Stifles at Wastelands/Fetchlands and dig for a Dress Down when you want to slam a 12/12 Dreadnought. The optimal time to cast Dress Down is during the end step of your opponent's turn. This gives you access to all of your mana on your subsequent turn that you cast any combination of Dreadnought(s) along with a titan like Uro/Kroxa on your subsequent turn.

    I would like to share the six lists here that I have had fun playing and winning with and I hope that people here have input on how to turn multiple 4-1s into 5-0s. One approach might be to cut Daze and go for a slower more controllish and less tempo based gameplan, by adding Walkers and Urza’s Sagas. But the tempo strategy has won me a lot of games, so I am hesistant to cut Daze and go the grindier approach. I attempted to take that route for the Sultai build. It could also work in Bant, since Bant Control is already a well defined archeatype and putting up strong results without the aid of the Dressnought combo, so adding Dressnought to the list is going to win games, but it would remain up in the air if the wins are due to the Bant Control shell or due to the addition of the Dressnought package. Stifle pairs so well with Dreadnought that overall, I think Daze + Stifle + Wasteland is the correct route to go with this deck. I would love to see other’s brews and ideas shared here as well...


    Simic Dressnought

    3 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Prismatic Vista
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Urza's Saga

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Noble Hierarch
    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Ice-Fang Coatl
    1 Brazen Borrower

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Sideboard:
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Divert
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Wilt
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    3 Endurance

    Above is the Simic List list I sent to BoshNRoll when I saw Dress Down spoiled, to play through a league due to my laptop's issues with mtgo and frequent crashes when attempting to record mtgo leagues. In hindsight, this list should have been maindecking either a Soul-Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle, but this oversight didn't stop him from 4-1ing with the list, only losing to Oops All Spells which ironically is a very favorable match-up for Dressnought. His 4-1 video is linked below. Its a fun watch and provides excellent guidance to playing Dressnought correctly...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    PAV67 subsequently 5-0ed with a nearly identical list... https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...21-06-19#pav_-


    Bant Dressnought

    4 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    1 Karakas
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Forest

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze

    3 Prismatic Ending
    1 Swords to Plowshares

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Ice-Fang Coatl
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Sideboard:
    3 Endurance
    2 Knight of Autumn
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Serenity
    1 Karakas
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Mother of Runes
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Swords to Plowshares

    Prismatic Ending is such as amazing and versatile card. The Simic list above evolved to Bant due to how powerful and versatile Prismatic Ending is, and I have since 4-1ed with a list very close to the above list.

    I am currently testing Terminus in the list (adding Portent to set it up) as being able to wrath opposing creature based decks for a single mana is incredibly powerful. Terminus pairs really well with your win conditions since your never have to worry about losing your own threats to Terminus. Everything synergies well. If youre playing an opponent packing StP, Dreadnought gains you 12 life which buys you time to stabilize. If your opponents do not play white based removal, Uro is a nightmare for them to deal with. If you have either a Dreadnought or Uro on the board, your guys are bigger than your opponents and you don't need to use Terminus. But if they manage to kill your Dreadnought/Uro, you simply wrath the board for a single mana which buys you a bunch of time to try again. Your cantrips work well really well at enabling Terminus and digging for threats/answers. I think this is the correct direction for Bant Dressnought to take...

    3-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Ponder
    3 Portent
    3 Prismatic Ending
    3 Terminus
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    3-4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    1 Sylvan Library

    1-4 Urza's Saga
    17-20 Other Lands

    I am still trying to iron out exactly how many Urza's Sagas and Wastelands to run in the list, and which second utility artifact to pair with Urza's Saga (Retrofitter vs Pithing) and if I should opt to run 0 Wasteland, 4 Sagas and cut a Dreadnought or Stifle or two due to Saga being able to tutor them up when needed.


    Sultai Dressnought

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Force of Will
    2 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Witherbloom Command
    1 Daze
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Mishra’s Bauble
    1 Nihil Spellbomb/Pithing Needle

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    2 Baleful Strix

    1 Bayou
    2 Urza's Saga
    2 Wasteland
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest

    Sideboard:
    3 Endurance
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Sudden Edict
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Hullbreacher

    Baleful Strix being an artifact synergizes well with Urza’s Saga and Saga works well in this grindier midrange approach alongside utility cards like Needle and Spellbomb. Witherbloom Command has proven to be surprisingly versatile and maindeckable alongside Uro making even the mill mode on the card very useful.

    There is a very different direction that the above list can viably take. Swap the Urza's Sagas out with Wastelands, swap out Needle and Spellbomb for Dazes and maybe even swap Baleful Strix for Tarmogoyf or Brazen Borrower or some other utility card, that list would look as below. I opted to take a grinder route built around Urza's Saga but cutting the Sagas for Wastelands, and replacing the maindeck artifacts with Dazes and other cards absolutely has merit and would bring this list closer to the other versions of Dressnought. That list would look as below...

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Witherbloom Command
    1 Force of Negation

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Endurance/Tarmogoyf
    1 Sylvan Library/Baleful Strix
    1 Brazen Borrower/Jace

    1 Bayou
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Wasteland


    Dimir Dressnought

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    2-3 Daze

    4 Stifle
    3-4 Dress Down
    1-2 Mishra’s Bauble
    1 Nihil Spellbomb/Pithing Needle
    0-1 Retrofitter Foundry
    0-3 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Baleful Strix
    1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
    1-2 Brazen Borrower
    0-1 Hunted Horror

    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Flooded Strand
    2 Wasteland
    2-4 Urza's Saga
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest

    Possibly the strongest Dimir Dressnought list would pair it with 4 Death's Shadow as Dress Down turns Shadow into a 13/13 the turn that you swing with it. I ultimately opted to leave Death's Shadow out as there is a whole seperate thread devoted to that specific strategy here... https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...8-Death-Nought

    I've gone back and forth on maximizing to 4 Urza's Saga as a way to tutor up Dreadnought consistently since you do not have Uro as a backup threat, and this approach seems to be working well, significantly more so than playing Hunted Horror to act as additional copies of Dreadnought.

    The above list is the least finalized list in the thread and I am strongly considering scrapping development on this list until some new tech comes up, as Dimir Dressnought performs subpar to the other five alternatives for now. It likely needs some additional tweaking as Ive at times even maindecked Hunted Horror due to the deck otherwise becoming too reliant on Dreadnought and thus vulnerable to Surgical Extraction. I am also exploring leaning heavily on the mana denial approach by utilizing Sinkhole to supplement the 4 Stifle and up to 4 Wasteland. Alternatively, Dauthi Voidwalker is an incredibly powerful card and potentially an excellent alternative threat to Dreadnought that serves double duty by hating out other legacy decks. Going this direction might make Dark Ritual a consideration as well but would probably add to much inconsistency to the deck. Dauthi Voidwalker has consistently overperformed but I haven't found room for it maindeck yet.


    Grixis Dressnought

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation
    1-3 Mishra’s Bauble
    0-1 Nihil Spellbomb/Retrofitter Foundry

    4 Stifle
    3-4 Dress Down

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    1-4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1 Lazav, the Multifarious
    0-1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

    1-4 Urza's Saga
    2-3 Wasteland
    1-2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Badlands
    2-3 Underground Sea
    2-3 Volcanic Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn

    Channeler and Lazav pair so incredibly well together. The additional Surveils that Channeler provides are great at helping dig a large threat into your yard for Lazav to copy, while also helping to dig for a Dress Down if you do not have a Lazav in play.

    As for utilizing this powerful interaction, the two directions to take the deck is to either play 4 Urza's Sagas to help nab Dreadnought and drop Kroxa or to play Kroxa due to being able to escape it thanks to Surveil fairly easily. Kroxa is no where near as powerful as Uro which is why I never play more than 1-2 copies and cutting this Titan entirely and possibly replacing it with Gurmag Angler might not be a bad direction for the deck above either.


    Temur Dressnought

    4 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    2-3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1-2 Brazen Borrower
    1-2 Sylvan Library

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3-4 Daze
    3-4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation

    Sideboard:
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Wilt
    1 Endurance
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Abrade

    I opted to take the Temur list in a hyper aggressive direction, similar to Temur Delver. Until they get run over by a Dreadnought, your opponents will think they are playing vs Delver and will heavily focus on countering or killing DRC/Ragavan asap, and will expect Lightning Bolt and will thus value their life total highly when casting Ad Nauseam or utilizing Sylvan Library. In doing so, your smaller threats really function to draw out removal and counterspells that would have otherwise hit your Dreadnought or Uro. Your smaller threats also all generate pseudo card advantage (DRC's surveil trigger helps you dig for your Dress Downs while filling up your yard for Uro, meanwhile Ragavan makes treasure tokens and lets you cast your opponents cantrips to help dig for combo pieces). The small threats also serve to ping at your opponents life total so that a single swing with either a Dreadnought or a Uro wins the game.

    Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability and boot strapping it to Channeler made it very abusable. DRC is incredible at helping you dig for combo pieces and filling your yard to escape Uro multiple times if you do not win in the early game itself on the back of a 12/12 trampler. The main weakness with this approach is that the only interaction that you have game one with your opponent's game plan is Daze, Force, Brazen, Stifle, Wasteland and Dress Down (against specific matchups). Postboard, you have quite a bit more interaction with your opponent, but the sideboard should probably gain additional graveyard hate.

    Maindecking an Endurance or two is solid in the current meta in the Uro builds. But doing that requires that Ponder be replaced with Abundant Harvest.

    Or maindecking Abundant Growth in the Urza's Saga heavy builds or the Dragon's Rage Channeler builds, ala...

    0-4 Urza's Saga
    16-20 Other Lands

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    2-4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    2-4 Mishra’s Bauble
    1-2 Brazen Borrower
    1-2 Sylvan Library
    0-4 Abundant Harvest
    0-2 Abundant Growth
    0-3 Endurance

    4 Brainstorm
    0-4 Ponder
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    The above is my wildest brew. I only had the chance to play the above list twice (once with 3 Urza’s Saga and 3 Mishra’s Baubles and another time with 3 Abundant Harvest, 1 Abundant Growth and 2 Endurance) and both lists felt very powerful (Saga and Endurance both did a lot of work and I haven’t figured out which is stronger).
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 07-03-2021 at 01:00 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Five Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    Wrong forum without results. You also have significant problems with making summoning sick Dreadnought-types at sorcery speed, such that opponents will always untap, draw a card, and have a land drop vs your Daze. While I like the enthusiasm, we have 3 threads going between Dreadstill in established and Death- & Vaka-Nought in developmental.

  3. #3

    Re: Five Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    Saved for updates, results and future league videos.

    BoshNRoll's League with the Simic Dressnought/Vaka Nought list I send him May 2021 when Dress Down was spoiled, his 4-1 video is here and its a fun watch...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    PAV67 5-0ed with a nearly identical Simic Dressnought/Vaka-Nought to the list above in the June 20, 2021 deck dump...

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down
    2 Sylvan Library

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    2 Noble Hierarch
    2 Sylvan Library
    2 Brazen Borrower
    1 Ice-Fang Coatl
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation

    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    3 Endurance
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Veil of Summer
    1 Wilt
    1 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Null Rod
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Sylvan Safekeeper

    The June 27 5-0 dump has two very spicy Dressnought lists...

    SFZ 5-0ed with Death Dressnought...

    Creature (10)
    4 Death's Shadow
    2 Murktide Regent
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    Sorcery (8)
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize

    Instant (20)
    2 Berserk
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Snuff Out
    4 Stifle

    Enchantment (4)
    4 Dress Down

    Land (18)
    3 Misty Rainforest
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    3 Watery Grave

    Sideboard
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Brazen Borrower
    2 Fatal Push
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Stubborn Denial
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Torpor Orb

    Taki 5-0ed with Show and Tell Dressnought!

    Creature (13)
    4 Elvish Reclaimer
    4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Griselbrand
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    Sorcery (8)
    4 Ponder
    4 Show and Tell

    Instant (8)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will

    Artifact (2)
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    Enchantment (7)
    4 Dress Down
    2 Omniscience
    1 Sylvan Library

    Land (22)
    1 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Mosswort Bridge
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Urza's Saga
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Omniscience
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Bojuka Bog
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Endurance
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    2 Veil of Summer

    The list is cool as hell, and very flexible, switching between combo Emrakul or combo Dreadnought to grindy control around Urza’s Saga and Elvish Reclaimer.

    Taki seems to agree that Dress Down is superior to Stifle as his list is playing 0 Stifle!
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-27-2021 at 08:05 AM.

  4. #4

    Re: Five Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    Saved for sideboard guides and matchup discussion.

  5. #5
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    Re: Five Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    I dont think simic is playable without 4 ice fang for removal. I think Temur or Sultai may be a very good idea to start because they give u alot of removal.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
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    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
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    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

  6. #6
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    Re: Six Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    Moved to New and Developmental, that's where this belongs. The Vaka Nought thread is now locked.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #7

    Re: Six Shades of Dressnought/Dress Stiflenought

    Thank you for making the requested changes/edits and locking the old thread so quickly as requested Mr. Safety. Very excited to watch this deck develop and progress.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-19-2021 at 09:57 PM.

  8. #8

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I don't get it why do you play dress down over torpor orb ?

  9. #9

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    I don't get it why do you play dress down over torpor orb ?
    Its a far better card.

    1. It cantrips so its never card disadvantage, even if they kill your Dreadnought, its card parity as the floor.

    2. It has flash which means it can be flashed in in the end phase of opponents turn, thus dodging sorcery speed removal
    and then used to cast an uro or nought your next turn and then dies on its own so your opponent cant use it to cast their own Uro, while if fills your yard for escape needs or for Lazav or to acheive surveil for Channeler

    3. It can be flashed in response to them casting thassas oracle or undecity informer so their triggers never go the stack and you instawin. Orb can be bounced by your opponent before they combo off

    4. Its even blue which means it can be pitched to FoW/FoN if you dont need it

  10. #10

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Torpor orb is way better to my point of view, it is a good card against elf (visionary, craterhoof, reclamation sage) , death and taxes (stoneblade, flickerwisp, apparition), doomsday (oracle) ; etc...

    while against those decks dress down is way worse;

    torpor orb combos whith ALL your noughts, uro, so ok your card cantrips but here torpor orb is utility for all the stuff not only one and you don't have to wait to have the nought/uro in hand to cast it.

    There is absoluty no match torpor orb is the better card

  11. #11

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    You are heavily underestimating both cantrip and flash. Take any card and add a cantrip effect to it, and that card becomes infinitely better. Dress Down is absolutely better vs Doomsday. You flash it when they're trying to go off, ideally in response to them casting Thassa's Oracle (but before it resolves) and you win. If you cast Orb and pass the turn, they will add a bounce spell to their 5 card pile and win after bouncing the Orb.

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    There is absoluty no match torpor orb is the better card
    I mostly agree with you there. There is indeed almost no matchup where Torpor Orb is the better card (except Ephermate and Soulherder but neither of those strategies end up seeing legacy play).

  12. #12

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    they can also bounce your stuff (if you don't have 4 mana to recast it) or just add a second thassas oracle to the pile, to win next turn,
    what they should do if they don't have fow in hand cause you play stifle.

    so yeah we are not here to talk about doomsday ; but in general the cantrip ability is bad 2CC to draw a card if you didn't cast a nought that's bad.

    whereas playing torpor orb for future noughts or uros is better here considering you don't have an uro or nought in hand.

    what do you do if you don't have uro or nought but just this 1U card in hand you cycle it for 2? or keep it in hand ? if you keep it in hand orb would have been better other way it is just 2 mana to cycle a card.

    Anyway i don't think noughts are playable with prismatic stuff swords push abrade in the meta

  13. #13
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I agree with Clark that Dress Down is much better than Torpor Orb.

    The 2nd Torpor Orb is a dead card, while the 2nd Dress Down isn't, so Torpor Orb is terrible in multiples.

    Even the 1st Torpor Orb has a lower floor. Dress Down is never card negative, while Torpor Orb can be a dead card without Dreadnought or opposing creatures to disrupt. Torpor Orb can have a higher ceiling vs some decks like Goblins and Esper Vial, where you want to disrupt multiple ETBs across multiple turns and might get to cast more than 1 Nought, but this is very conditional on the matchup (SB?). In general Torpor Orb makes Dreadnought a 2-for-1 (2 cards to make a 12/12) instead of a 2-for-2 (2 cards to make a 12/12 and draw a card), only starting to pay off by the 2nd Dreadnought (3-for-2).

    The permanent Torpor Orb effect is also very bad with Ice-Fang Coatl (turns off your own creature), Endurance (lose the GY shuffle), and titans like Uro (lose all the ETB triggers) so it would not work in a deck like this. It's only useful for making multiple Dreadnoughts, which (as you say) is one of the weakest things the deck can do into a format with a lot of ways to 2-for-1 Dreadnoughts.

    Dress Down being blue, having flash, and cantripping are pretty important because you can use it either as a Dreadnought enabler or as a disruptive cantrip. The disruptive part is key. You're not just paying 1U to cycle. Here are some things it can do:
    -Combat trick to shrink attacking/blocking Tarmogoyf to 0/1
    -Remove Progenitus mode from levelled up Hexdrinker
    -Respond to flash-Coatl blocker, removing both the cantrip and deathtouch so it can't kill your attacker
    -Respond to ETBs like Stoneforge and Recruiters, removing the tutor
    -Disrupt Thassa's Oracle decks for a turn (and if they used a Pact effect or have an empty library, passing the turn could lose the game)
    -Remove evasion from an attacking DRC/Delver/Sprite Dragon/Murkfiend so it runs into your ground creature
    -Cancel an opponent's Uro trigger, either ETB or attacking
    -Remove hexproof or indestructible from opposing creature to make it killable
    -Time Walk vs Elves (not only does it turn off Hoof & Visionary ETB, but it also shuts down their mana engine)
    -Make Elves's spells counterable again (Dress Down in response to spell, shutting off Allosaurus Shepherd, then Force their Natural Order after they sacrifice a creature)
    -Kill Urza's Constructs (0/0)
    -Turn off creature-based combos like Painter-Stone, Voidwalker-Helm, and Hull-Day
    -Turn off Thalia/Sentinel taxes for a turn
    -Disable Griselbrand draw and lifelink for a turn
    -Remove Annihilator from hasty Emrakul

    You can usually find some way to get at least +1 card from the ability, making it an effective 2-for-1 cantrip. Sometimes you can set it up to both disrupt them and drop a Dreadnought postcombat for maximum value. In the video, Bosh uses Dress Down more often as a utility cantrip than as a Dreadnought enabler. The different modes and higher floor mean it's much less likely to be dead in hand.

    But yeah, Noughts are very easy to remove in this format. The video shows the rest of the deck pulling more weight than Noughts. Uro, Sylvan, Jace, Endurance, Dress Down and counters do a lot of work. Noughts end up being awkward 2-for-1s or dead cards some games, and in other games they're the last nail in the coffin once the deck is already ahead from other cards (or the opponent's deck losing to itself). They're not bad, but they're unimpressive compared to the power level of the other cards.

  14. #14

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I agree with Clark that Dress Down is much better than Torpor Orb.

    The 2nd Torpor Orb is a dead card, while the 2nd Dress Down isn't, so Torpor Orb is terrible in multiples.

    Even the 1st Torpor Orb has a lower floor. Dress Down is never card negative, while Torpor Orb can be a dead card without Dreadnought or opposing creatures to disrupt. Torpor Orb can have a higher ceiling vs some decks like Goblins and Esper Vial, where you want to disrupt multiple ETBs across multiple turns and might get to cast more than 1 Nought, but this is very conditional on the matchup (SB?). In general Torpor Orb makes Dreadnought a 2-for-1 (2 cards to make a 12/12) instead of a 2-for-2 (2 cards to make a 12/12 and draw a card), only starting to pay off by the 2nd Dreadnought (3-for-2).

    The permanent Torpor Orb effect is also very bad with Ice-Fang Coatl (turns off your own creature), Endurance (lose the GY shuffle), and titans like Uro (lose all the ETB triggers) so it would not work in a deck like this. It's only useful for making multiple Dreadnoughts, which (as you say) is one of the weakest things the deck can do into a format with a lot of ways to 2-for-1 Dreadnoughts.

    Dress Down being blue, having flash, and cantripping are pretty important because you can use it either as a Dreadnought enabler or as a disruptive cantrip. The disruptive part is key. You're not just paying 1U to cycle. Here are some things it can do:
    -Combat trick to shrink attacking/blocking Tarmogoyf to 0/1
    -Remove Progenitus mode from levelled up Hexdrinker
    -Respond to flash-Coatl blocker, removing both the cantrip and deathtouch so it can't kill your attacker
    -Respond to ETBs like Stoneforge and Recruiters, removing the tutor
    -Disrupt Thassa's Oracle decks for a turn (and if they used a Pact effect or have an empty library, passing the turn could lose the game)
    -Remove evasion from an attacking DRC/Delver/Sprite Dragon/Murkfiend so it runs into your ground creature
    -Cancel an opponent's Uro trigger, either ETB or attacking
    -Remove hexproof or indestructible from opposing creature to make it killable
    -Time Walk vs Elves (not only does it turn off Hoof & Visionary ETB, but it also shuts down their mana engine)
    -Make Elves's spells counterable again (Dress Down in response to spell, shutting off Allosaurus Shepherd, then Force their Natural Order after they sacrifice a creature)
    -Kill Urza's Constructs (0/0)
    -Turn off creature-based combos like Painter-Stone, Voidwalker-Helm, and Hull-Day
    -Turn off Thalia/Sentinel taxes for a turn
    -Disable Griselbrand draw and lifelink for a turn
    -Remove Annihilator from hasty Emrakul

    You can usually find some way to get at least +1 card from the ability, making it an effective 2-for-1 cantrip. Sometimes you can set it up to both disrupt them and drop a Dreadnought postcombat for maximum value. In the video, Bosh uses Dress Down more often as a utility cantrip than as a Dreadnought enabler. The different modes and higher floor mean it's much less likely to be dead in hand.
    Very well said. These are precisely the reasons why Dress Down is the strongest card printed for Dreadnought since Stifle and arguably is actually better than Stifle due to never being card negative.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Noughts are very easy to remove in this format.
    Noughts are not any easier to kill than Delver, Ragavan or Channeler. Where as Noughts also die to artifact removal, all those other threats dominating legacy can be killed by Lightning Bolt.

    A 12/12 trampler dying to removal is a poor reason to underestimate the card, especially in a deck that is designed to protect Nought in a number of ways, using the same tools that Shadow and Delver decks use so successfully to protect their threats. Most legacy threats die to removal. The difference is that Nought clocks soooo much harder than every other cheap threat in legacy and your opponents gets only one single turn to dig for a removal spell to kill Nought, where as players get 5 turns to dig for a removal spell for Delver. Your opponents can't even chump block Nought the way they can a Goyf or Uro. Even TNN is useless vs Nought.

    The other fact most people miss is that precisely because Dressnoughts clock so much faster than every other cheap threat in legacy, you can usually ignore your opponents threats and use all of your resources to instead protect your threats, and it works. There is a reason why all the lists above don't bother playing Fatal Push, because there is no point to devoting slots to kill a 3/2 flyer when you will soon be counterattacking with a 6/6 that gains you life each attack, or a 12/12 trampler that can sometimes kill in even just one swing. It doesn't matter whether you win with 18 life or 2 life, those creature removal slots are far better spent digging for or protecting your 12/12 trampler. Dress Down and Stifle already answer many creatures based win conditions (Oracle, Craterhoof etc). Specialized removal (Sudden Edict) exists in the board for the few cards like Marit Lage, Griselbrand and Emrakul that clock faster than Nought, Fatal Push and Ice Fang doesn't kill them either.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-20-2021 at 08:15 PM.

  15. #15

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Here is link to PAV67's 5-0 with Simic Dressnought that was posted in today's deck dump...

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...21-06-19#pav_-

    I feel the Bant, Sultai and Temur Dressnought lists have more potential in the long run due to Prismatic Ending, Thoughtseize and Ragavan/Dragon Rage Channeler respectively but it's great to see the deck start to put up the first of many 5-0s.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-21-2021 at 08:27 AM.

  16. #16
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Noughts are not any easier to kill than Delver, Ragavan or Channeler. Where as Noughts also die to artifact removal, all those other threats dominating legacy can be killed by Lightning Bolt.
    The big difference is when they die it's a 1-for-1 instead of a 2-for-1 (Stifle+Nought), which leaves more resources to protect the threat or otherwise interact with the opponent.

    Also Delver, Ragavan and Channeler can be played on turn 1. That's better in a Daze+Wasteland deck, because you would much rather use your mana denial after playing a threat than before.

    The 12/12 clock does create pressure to have an answer immediately. But if they do have the answer you fall behind. It also requires an enabler and risks trading down a card (with Stifle), so it needs some help to counteract those disadvantages. The 12/12 looks a lot better with Dress Down than with Stifle.

    StifleNought vs StP/Prismatic/Push/REB/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce: trades 2 cards + 2 mana for 1 card + 1 mana!! Opponent's ahead on both cards and mana! (worst case scenario for a Daze+Wasteland deck)
    StifleNought vs Decay/Abrade/Borrower/Edict/Meltdown: trades 2 cards + 2 mana for 1 card + 2 mana. Opponent at least spends as much mana as you, but is ahead on cards, and some of those are uncounterable.
    StifleNought vs Coatl: trades 2 cards + 2 mana for 0 cards + 2 mana. Opponent is ahead 2 cards.

    If opponent answers Shadow or Delver, you've only invested 1 card + 1 mana so you're trading well. StifleNought can't do the same.

    DressNought at least trades 2-for-2 with removal so you aren't behind on cards, though you are probably behind on mana investment (you spend 3 mana & they spend 1-2 to remove it). That means you probably can't afford to be picking up lands (Daze) or trading lands (Wasteland) in the early game because you'll often be the one already more taxed on mana. BoshNRoll picked up on that and got his wins by developing his own mana instead of playing the mana denial effects, even in matchups like 4C Delver and Jund where you would normally want to attack their greedy manabases.

    That makes me wonder if this deck would get even better by cutting back on the mana denial plan, with a more controlling plan of DressNought and Uro. DressNought at least prevents you from being blown out on cards, but it's a bigger mana investment and harder to pull off if you're cracking early Dazes and Wastelands. What if you removed Daze and run only 2-3 Stifle?

    Edit: What about something like this?


    //Creatures: 8
    2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Endurance
    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    //Enchantment: 6
    4 Dress Down
    2 Sylvan Library

    //Planeswalker: 2
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Artifacts: 1
    1 Retrofitter Foundry

    //Spells: 20
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Stifle
    2 Force of Negation

    //Lands: 23
    3 Urza's Saga
    3 Wasteland
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod
    1 Endurance
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Veil of Summer
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Terminus
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Karakas


    Edit: Prismatic moved to main
    Last edited by FTW; 06-22-2021 at 11:45 AM.

  17. #17

    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    I think there is absolutely potential in playing something closer to Bant Control since that's a proven strategy/shell.

    Some feedback...

    4 StP and 0 Prismatic Ending is incorrect. Too many decks do not play StPable creatures and you don't care about most creatures between your 12/12 trampler and the Uro that gains you 3 life each swing. Prismatic Ending hits Chalice, Chrome Mox, Vial, Mox Diamond, Library, B2B, Choke, Carpet etc in addition to hitting all the Delver creatures that you would want StP for. I like 3 Prismatic Ending and 1-2 StP depending on your meta.

    The high number of Urza's Sagas along with the 1 of Retrofitter Foundry to tutor up with it is a very powerful synergy that works great for affinity, but it's dangerous to invest a ton of mana into constructs in a deck that also plays 4 Dress Down which wraths all constructs. You can play around this nonbo so it might be possible to do both. I am not sure, I would have to try it in the Bant shell to know for sure.

    I tried something similar in the Sultai list but I have since realized that I preferred and have thus switched back to the Sultai list below with 3 Daze, 4 Wasteland, 0 Saga and 0 nonDreadnought Artifacts...

    Sultai Dressnought

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Witherbloom Command
    1 Force of Negation

    4 Stifle
    4 Dress Down

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Endurance/Tarmogoyf
    1 Sylvan Library/Baleful Strix
    1 Brazen Borrower/Jace

    1 Bayou
    2 Underground Sea
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Wasteland


    You lose too much speed by cutting 2 Dreadnought and 2 Stifle and relying on Urza's Saga which takes 3 turns and broadcasts your gameplan far too early. Stifle has tons of uses and Dreadnought is your fastest and cheapest win condition so 3 is as low as I would ever go on either card game 1. You could go lower post board vs control as this approach is fine vs control, but doing this will cost you vs combo, aggro and stuff like Turbo Depths and Oops All Spells.

    Against removal heavy matchups, Stifle should be aimed primarily at fetchlands/wastelands/oracles. The exceptions are if you have multiple ways in hand to protect your dreadnought while your opponent is low on cards, of if you already Thoughtseized them recently and know they have nothing, or if you're about to lose the game barring a hail mary play. Stifling the Dreadnought trigger also makes sense against decks that are not playing either white or black, and against decks that are focused on comboing out quickly and thus do not pack maindeck removal. But in the majority of matchups, you should aim your early game Stifles at Wastelands/Fetchlands and dig for a Dress Down when you want to slam a 12/12 Dreadnought.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-21-2021 at 02:15 AM.

  18. #18
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    Good point, swapping some Prismatic Ending main with StP SB may help with things this deck struggles against. StP is useful as instant-speed interaction though, vs Dashed Ragavans, Sneak Attack threats and EOT Marit Lage. Sorcery speed Prismatic Ending can't touch those. But maybe that's narrow enough to not need all the StPs maindeck.

    Urza's Saga can also tutor for Dreadnought when you're ready, Foundry when you just need to grind bodies vs control, or Soul-Guide Lantern to cantrip/handle graveyards. This is tech used by Dreadstill in the latest Legacy Challenge-winning deck. Then, instead of having conditional topdecks or potential dead cards in hand (Dreadnought without enabler) you can get Dreadnought when you're ready for it, after you have ways to protect it from the opponent or have disrupted them.

    With Saga it costs more turns but costs less mana. Tap Urza's Saga for 1, sacrifice Urza's Saga to make uncounterable Dreadnought, tap an Island and Dress Down. That only requires U from additional sources. If that Saga was a Nought instead, it would cost 2U from additional sources. Saga can also replace itself with Constructs if you're on Stifle instead of Dress Down. If you have no enabler, Saga can still make Constructs and get Foundry. Basically Saga can leave you ahead in mana or in cards, and if you don't have the enabler it can still do things while Dreadnought is sitting around waiting for the enabler. It's more flexible. The only downside is fewer early Stiflenoughts vs decks that can't remove it (combo, burn, etc).

    The anti-synergy between Constructs and Dress Down is a problem, so maybe any Saga build needs to go up on Stifle and down on Dress Downs. Uro also prefers Stifle to Dress Down, because of the trick with putting in the 4th land before Stifling the sacrifice (and you get to keep the ETB value).

    I do see the appeal of starting maxed out with maindeck Stiflenought in game 1, then boarding some out in matchups that can easily remove it. I guess it's a metagame call. Do you expect more decks that can't interact with it (combo, burn) or more decks that can interact with it? Remember that UR can remove Dreadnought by countering the enabler (REB, Spell Pierce, FoN), bouncing it (Borrower), or artifact kill (Abrade, Meltdown) so you don't just have to think about white and black decks.

  19. #19
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    You're missing the key interaction: Urza's last trigger on the stack -> cast Dress Down = you successfully picked a fight you don't actually care about; welcome to real Dreadnought decks.

    If they counter Dress Down, you're winning as you search for not- Dreadnought, and go up a card. If they destroy Dress Down they lose a card, you draw a card, and you tutor up not-Dreadnought and go up another card. If they don't counter Dress Down and they don't destroy it, you draw a card and get *the option* to make a 12/12 for free. Here's the thing though: you don't actually care how this whole sequence goes down, and if the deck is built correctly you don't even care of they kill the 12/12. Every decision they opponent had was losing, which is the same premise of Scroll of Fate.

    ^stop trying to just beat opponents to death, and you can actually use this to your advantage. Right now beating them to death is your only wincon, but it's summoning sick, and you're passing the turn with a "beat you to death" wincon you're trying to defend with a Daze - it doesn't make sense. You just blew all the progress you just made, choosing to be the exact same thing as Hunted Horror + Torpor meme with slightly better tools being used in the same crude way.

  20. #20
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    Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

    That's a good trick and justifies running the two together a lot more. Especially if you managed to get some value from the 1st Construct (trade or chump block), knowing that you plan to Dress Down that turn.

    @Fox: So how do you effectively leverage Dreadnought in Dreadstill then? Is it that it's such a fast clock that you can quickly pivot from caring about the combat step (1-2 turn kill) to not caring at all and winning some other way, because you've invested so few resources into combat, and that allows you to not care which way the fight goes?

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